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Old 04-10-2009, 04:52 AM   #21
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gotta say i agree with bridget on this one. frightening...
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Old 04-10-2009, 11:15 AM   #22
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Hm, I think people are taking this too far.

I agree that the Sniper has got plenty of extra tools to kill/help in killing, like Radio Tags and leg crippling, but you have to remember that the Sniper uses caliber 1 (unit) bullets, making it hard to hit people with. If you add buggy hit detection and great speed from other classes, you should know why he's got so many extra tools for a single hit. However, insta-tag/crippling maybe it's too much, I think it should be fine if the bullets only acquire this ability beyond 40% charge or something.

Snipe made great points on avoiding being sniped. Knowing where the enemy is will help you getting shot - moving across his screen instead of straight to him reduces the chance of getting sniped, and you can even shot a few slugs to mess up his aim a bit, since the aim moves a bit when you are hurt. Being as fast paced as FF is, it's false that you can't fight back - Nailgun, RPG, IC... even then, you can always use movement skills to close the gap and deal with him - nadeRJump, backwards flaming, etc.

Also, saying that Sniper takes little to no skill is also false: if you play hide-charge-shot the first thing you see you won't help your team, which I assume is the method you say don't require skill. A skilled Sniper, IMO, will first try to kill the fastest class in sight, if fails to do so, won't hide and let it go. I take the risk of staying exposed to try to at least tag it, ignoring enemy Snipers if necessary, and when that one is tagged, I go after the closer enemy to my base. Sometimes this has led me to jump down the 2fort battlements to tag a Scout going the main entry, and then deal with a Soldier at close quarters, sometimes being able to kill him with the Sniper Rifle, but at least tagging him. If you think it's easy to hit someone with the Sniper Rifle while being shot around, well, you are wrong.

The main problem I see is that normal players will always get annoyed to a Sniper, no matter if he plays the "safe" way (baww I can't fight back!) or the "useful" way (baww he tagged me at close range!). First one can't be fixed, and leds to spawn spamming. Second one can be fixed with the charge% tag/cripple, but then Sniper won't be so useful for the team, which may led to people to play the "safe" way.
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Old 04-10-2009, 09:28 PM   #23
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Actually, if you were to play Sniper at league level (Which you'll see little of.) Your not supposed to kill any class except Defensive players.

All offensive players should be shot in the legs with tap shots to 1.)Cripple their speed. 2.) Stop their airspeed/momentum 3.)Allow easy sweep by your teams defenders.

FF is about speed and dexterity, you'll force more players to endure a 5-second suicide timer rather than limp walking it into the enemy base just to be eaten alive.

Does it work well in league? If you have a sniper skilled enough, you would be surprised at how much of the offense he can suppress.
In Pub Servers? He's down right atrocious.

When you can skillfully play a sniper, you are more efficient at your task of killing offense than any other class, but if you suck, well your just a sniper then.
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Old 04-11-2009, 02:25 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ihmhi View Post
Our Sniper needs to be more like Quake's Railgun, or the Laser Rifle in TRIBES.

Basically be able to fire in the air, while moving, etc
That's the best idea yet (as long as it's not a 1 shot kill).
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Old 04-11-2009, 02:57 PM   #25
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not sure about charging though. uncharged shots for sure!
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Old 04-12-2009, 07:01 PM   #26
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briget hates me lol, anyway nothing is wrong with the sniper, it has its advantages and its disadvantages just like every other class... i've killed people like bridget 10 times in a row as they exit and bridget has done the same to me as a spy, i never say a word either way, its part of the game.

for those who don't know, although almost everyone should by now, im an exclusive sniper. and to truely know all of the snipers downfalls, every situation that could possibly go bad, you begin to realize that the sniper has as many disadvantages as advantages and when someone is doing nothing but going after you, ur life is going to be hell regardless.

no need to change things.
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Old 04-13-2009, 12:20 AM   #27
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Resorting to insults because I play classes that take some engaging skill? Knowing where the Sniper is .. is useless. In addition, you only see the laser if it is placed on your head and you are angled in the direction of the Sniper.
Maybe so... but consider this: If the sniper is exposed, he is dead. Period. Similar to the Spy, concealment is his sole ally. Only top-notch snipers can survive out in the open. Sure, they can shoot you from a blind spot, but if you get off a shot at them, unless they run like hell... and/or expose themselves.... they are at another players mercy.

People who consider Snipers as over-powered, are very much underskilled at the classes they play. Snipers are vulnerable from any angle they are not zoomed in on. Which is pretty much anything but straight ahead.

I was playing TFC earlier.... there were some GOOD snipers on the other team(Map-2fort)..... how do you handle that? Simple... you go where they can't shoot. If it comes down to it, you pop out and shoot shit at them.... and duck back real fast. If you prevent the snipers from getting off a shot, then you have nullified their primary advantage. I think that is called, BALANCE.

There is ONE major thing that binds TFC and FF..... communication. If a team can communicate... they can win. If both teams communicate, then it comes down to skill. Either way, the better team will win.

Ihmhi and I were playing a 3rd party game last night, which has spaceships involved.... My gaming history says, "Ok.... show me how this works, and I'll figure the other shit out." He kept trying to show me this move, and that move... etc... but part of the fun of these games is LEARNING shit. That is why I love TFC...... there is a basic part of the game that is easy to learn. The more advanced stuff is there to learn. Sure you will look like a noob trying to learn shit.... but it's only a game. You can learn as you go and make it fun.

Maybe I'm part of the dying breed of gamer.... I like to know the basics, and figure out the rest on my own. I played a friend of mine a game of Food Fight on the Atari 7800.... I showed him the ropes, and he loved it. I showed him a little of Beef Drop... and he got bored when I tried to tell him strategies. He's the same kind of gamer I am.... let me learn it on my own.

Anyhow.... Sniper is an "old school" part of the game. Easy to learn the basics, but takes a while to master the nuances.

I will agree that the Hit Detection can use some work.... but basicly the class is pretty much designed properly. It takes a little bit of thought(read:Strategy) to get past.
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Old 04-29-2009, 03:40 AM   #28
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The problem with the Sniper isn't that he's overpowered, it's that he's used so shamelessly.

The mentality of the average TF2 player is that making someone ragequit is an accomplishment. And there's Snipers on FF who I suspect feel the same way, or who are at best indifferent to the feelings of their fellow player.
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Old 04-29-2009, 05:38 PM   #29
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ok so whats going to make a person ragequit less? if i shoot him in the leg every time I see them and let them hobble around OR kill them everytime I see them. Or should i just ignore them and wait for them to walk around my base and get 2 feet in front of me.

I don't target certain people, when i snipe, i shoot at everything i can hit, im not gonig to hold back becasue someones feelings are hurt. They wouldn't hold back killing me.
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Old 04-29-2009, 07:13 PM   #30
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No there's nothing for you to do differently. Some people see no problem with killing a guy 20 times in a row. He was asking for it!
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Old 04-29-2009, 08:10 PM   #31
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it's called using movement skills in FF and not letting them hit you until you're 2 feet in THEIR face and you kill them.. works for me on pub servers.. most snipers suck thanks to the problem with hit scan on fast moving players (yes that problem sucks also)
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Old 04-29-2009, 08:59 PM   #32
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Movement skills... bleh.

Apart from Conc'ing across Aardvark and strategic rocket-jumps I got no time for movement skills. Whenever I see someone bunny-hopping, I think "there's a guy who takes this game way too seriously". There's no dignity to bunny-hopping. Or sniping. Or backstabbing. Within reason of course.

Last edited by cjwright79; 04-29-2009 at 09:05 PM.
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Old 04-29-2009, 09:51 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjwright79 View Post
Movement skills... bleh.

Apart from Conc'ing across Aardvark and strategic rocket-jumps I got no time for movement skills. Whenever I see someone bunny-hopping, I think "there's a guy who takes this game way too seriously". There's no dignity to bunny-hopping. Or sniping. Or backstabbing. Within reason of course.
Please explain how you arrived at your conclusion. I disagree with your assessment.

I'm not here to knock you around or tell you that you are wrong, I would just like to hear a concise reasoning for your opinion, since it differs from my own.

Thanks.
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Old 04-29-2009, 09:57 PM   #34
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I think anything requiring concerted effort or advanced technique is a bit curious.

It's like a nuclear arms race. You CAN keep getting your weapons bigger and bigger, and force your adversaries to do the same if they want to keep up, but then you're both just using your resources on something that's not particularly fun.

When you're bunny-hopping, your situational awareness is down the tube, your ability to fight back is zero, and you're having to constantly make effort just to move a little faster. Is capping the flag really that important?

I suppose for some people it is.
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Old 04-30-2009, 12:10 AM   #35
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I would think of it more like sports.

Take basketball for an example, who do you think is going to win 1v1? Some guy who only knows how to walk down the court dribbling the ball while having to keep his eyes on it to make sure he dribbles properly, while only taking his shots from the exact same spot with the exact same technique everytime? Or some dude that can keep his head up eyes anywhere he wants, while dribbling the ball through his legs around his back, and taking a wide variety of different shots on nets from different distances, while still managing to throw feints?

Quote:
When you're bunny-hopping, your situational awareness is down the tube, your ability to fight back is zero, and you're having to constantly make effort just to move a little faster.
This statement sounds like one made by a guy who's never got past the initial efforts in learning to bhop. For someone learning yes, you loose awareness, you do loose coordination to shoot things, and yes you're constantly making the effort to perform the bhopping. But that's cause you're soo focused on trying to bhop your concentration is elsewhere.

Once someone learns the basic of bhopping, and then becomes even half decent at it it takes absolutely no effort what so ever to maintain it. Think that skilled basketball player is soo wrapped up in doing his fancy moves and shots that he's lost all awareness on the court? Probably not, infact the moves probably come soo naturally to him it's almost subconcious and his mind and eyes are completely focused on the court and other players and their movements.

Learning to bhop is painfull, and yes people who do learn it have spent the extra time an effort to aquire that skill. But you don't have to be someone who takes the game "too seriously" to do it. I never took the game seriously back in tfc for the most part, I was your common pubber. I decided to learn how to do it, took some time alone to practice the movements, then forced myself during a pub match to do it. Sure at first I couldn't do it everywhere, I could only do it on straightaways. But forcing myself as I played to learn how to bhop corners, up and down ramps...etc was fun, it was a new element to me and opened up a new whole realm of possibilities in the game. Through experimentation I learned what I could and could not do. Through watching others I learned different possibilities.

It's not like someone who learned how to bhop sat alone in his own local game practing for 3 months straight to perfect it, while experiencing no fun at all. No, he spent a little time at first to learn the movements, then just used it in games to become more fluent and confident in it.
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Old 04-30-2009, 02:42 AM   #36
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Good points Hammock.
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Old 04-30-2009, 03:06 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjwright79 View Post
I think anything requiring concerted effort or advanced technique is a bit curious.

It's like a nuclear arms race. You CAN keep getting your weapons bigger and bigger, and force your adversaries to do the same if they want to keep up, but then you're both just using your resources on something that's not particularly fun.

When you're bunny-hopping, your situational awareness is down the tube, your ability to fight back is zero, and you're having to constantly make effort just to move a little faster. Is capping the flag really that important?

I suppose for some people it is.
In any hobby, there are little intricacies that you pick up from experience. There is a lot more to playing the guitar than "plucking a string", after a while, the motions become part of your muscle memory, and you can execute them at will or involuntary. The same thing goes for skateboarding, or surfing. Couple that with knowledge gleaned from experience, like in chess or ping pong for instance, and you have bunny hopping.

Most people who can bunny hop, have known how to do so for some time, as the technique has been around in some form or another since the original Quake game. It existed in half-life as well, in nearly the same form. It worked well in certain mods, but did not fit well for class based nor tactical games.

In general, it was patched out of mods that it caused a major problem in, and limited by others. I praise fortress forever for making the technique so easy compared to the days of old where only certain control setups would allow you time your jumps correctly without the use of scripts or outside programs.

The technique of bunny hopping is really no more than utilizing the "jump queuing" feature, which enables you to jump repeatedly without the need for exact timing, and the "Air-Control" feature that allows you to correct your trajectory in the air.

Useful on their own, these techniques combined give the player to cruise around the map while maintaining speed. By spending the most time in the
"Acceleration Zones", your speed will increase. The degree of the Air Control required to generate acceleration, is learned through experience. Generating this acceleration at will, is key to removing the flag from the enemy bass when heavily defended.

Is the flag really that important?

Not really, probably about as important as a touchdown. It doesn't change the weather, but it does score a point for your entire team, which puts you one point closer to victory.

Ultimately, its all about how you get down. I won't complain if you don't want to chase me.
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Old 04-30-2009, 08:08 AM   #38
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Thanks for the decent replies hammock and MonoXideAtWork - I don't need to say anything now

doubt I'd have said it so well either.
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Old 04-30-2009, 06:30 PM   #39
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My only reply is that hopping around looks so undignified.
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Old 04-30-2009, 07:25 PM   #40
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My only reply is that hopping around looks so undignified.
Are you saying that it appears to be a form of cheating?
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