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Old 03-27-2015, 07:32 PM   #1
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Pyro missing shotgun

In the steam release it appears the shotgun has been removed from the pyro class. I am aware that it was removed from some classes because it was redundant with the super shotgun, but now the pyro lacks any reliable mid-long range damage, and almost nothing to be done underwater. The IC can only do so much in these roles.

Was the pyro really overpowered enough to justify causing such a large gap in their utility?

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Old 03-27-2015, 09:35 PM   #2
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no medic small shotty either
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Old 03-27-2015, 09:39 PM   #3
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Relevant: https://github.com/fortressforever/f...ever/issues/82
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Old 03-27-2015, 09:52 PM   #4
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Relevant: [url]I totally get where you're coming from. And for Soldier, I think I agree (hence why that pull request hasn't been merged, and may never be). However, I really don't think there's any reasonable amount of depth gained with the medic/hwguy having a single shotgun, and the pyro having it is largely irrelevant (it's only useful in pyro vs pyro, but even then it's insanely weak).
I highly disagree with the statement that its only useful for pyro vs pyro. It is very good filler damage any time you are knocked back from an explosive, and have already double flamed the target you are up against. This is relevant against vs large heavy, pyro, hwguy, demo, or soldier. Nerfing the class by removing a situational weapon is also not the correct way to go about simplifying an already extremely simple (mechanically) class. Constantly am I finding situations now where i get knocked back by a soldier into a mid range where its very difficult to get a good IC hit, but too far for a flamethrower, where im desperately spamming "2" trying to be able to get to a more reliable damage source and can't now.
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Old 03-27-2015, 10:04 PM   #5
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That strikes me as a benefit, as it narrows the pyro's role and emphasizes his strengths/weaknesses more.

Pyro is a close-range, damage-over-time, heavy offense/hybrid. The single shotgun only muddies that role rather than clarify it.
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Old 03-27-2015, 10:09 PM   #6
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That strikes me as a benefit, as it narrows the pyro's role and emphasizes his strengths/weaknesses more.

Pyro is a close-range, damage-over-time, heavy offense/hybrid. The single shotgun only muddies that role rather than clarify it.
Sacrificing the usefulness of the class isn't worth emphasizing the class design. If your going for sending the message of it being close range anyway, its a shotgun. While the shotguns in this game are not exactly balanced like this, shotguns are very well recognized as close quarters weapons, and can quickly be picked up by a beginner as "ok, this class is all about up close and personal".

If a change like this is to be made, something else should be added to fill a different gap in utility that the pyro has.

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Old 03-27-2015, 10:19 PM   #7
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Yeah it kinda feels like something is missing now, without the shotgun. Maybe there should be something else?

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Old 03-27-2015, 10:23 PM   #8
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In my experience the only thing the single shotty has done on any class is trick newer players into thinking it's an acceptable DM weapon. It most certainly is not. The single shotty is a pea shooter, if you're to far to land an IC shot, I think you should just consider yourself outside the pyros functional range anyways.
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Old 03-27-2015, 10:38 PM   #9
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Quote:
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If your going for sending the message of it being close range anyway, its a shotgun.
The single shotgun is not better at close range. If anything, it's best usage is at long range due to its very small spread.

Also, that "it's a shotgun" concept is actually the exact reason the single shotgun was such a problem. Shotguns generally are assumed to be good damage dealing weapons by most people. The fact that the single shotgun is actually worse than the worst pistols in the majority of games is really confusing, to the point that new players will still use it even when they are getting zero kills with it. See:

This might lead you to believe that it's a visual problem, not a gameplay problem, and you'd probably be right. But removing it would still be the best option until we can get a weapon model that fits the utter lack-of-damage it does.
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Old 03-27-2015, 10:41 PM   #10
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At the moment, this is just a rinse and repeat of what happened with the Nail gren. You're using class emphasis rather than the in-game dynamics as an excuse for your design decisions that CLEARLY aren't liked.

If you've seen me in a few pubs, you've seen me play with it as a pyro (albeit rarely). I use it for mid-range engagements when closing the distance is FAR too dangerous I'm low on health, or to finish off an enemy who's got low health from burns. It's dynamic.

The IC is useless at longer ranges because it's essentially a mortar and it takes time to aim it right, doing that on the fly is not terribly easy.

My point is, don't change the class dynamic unless you've actually played it regularly to get a grasp of what it does and what it'll do with gameplay. Doing rash decisions like this will upset your player base at best and are very bad design decisions. It happened before with the Nail Grenade, so let that sink in for a minute.

I'm not going to argue past wounds it's pointless, but this is what I was getting at, this as the potential to piss off the playerbase. Think before you act, and be sure to poll the community rather than make rash decisions. This would count as rash in my book. Frankly I don't care either way, it'd be nice to have as a backup weapon so I can disengage and stick at a slight distance while I pump them full of holes till they burn to death rather than waste time with mortar shots.

Anyway, it's in-game already, there's not much to do 'sept bitch let's just leave it at that.
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Old 03-27-2015, 10:52 PM   #11
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There's no winning here (as with absolutely everything in FF), but I think reducing new player confusion is a worthy goal, and that's why the single shotgun was removed. The role being emphasized is just a side benefit.

EDIT: I really suggest everyone watch that video I linked above, it's really eye-opening. He goes from class to class and uses the single shotgun on almost all of them for almost two hours and never gets a clue. He might be an exceptional outlier, but it seems silly to keep the single shotgun if there's the potential for new players to get such an inaccurate view of the gameplay.

EDIT#2: Created an issue about the model being confusing: https://github.com/fortressforever/f...ver/issues/149. If that gets implemented, I'd have no problem adding it back to the pyro.
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Old 03-27-2015, 10:58 PM   #12
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True, but is holding the newbies hand something we should really do (I honestly hate games like that)?

Whatever the case, like I said (and you emphasized), it's pointless to argue about it. The next patch is (I assume) a long ways off, the likelihood of it getting changed in the near future is nil.
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Old 03-27-2015, 11:00 PM   #13
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If its a problem with visual fidelity, then pyro is not the class to do it, which now has the least number weapons of all classes. Its not even that a shotgun specifically is needed, but a reliable medium to long range weapon to fill the massive gap that the pyro now has in utility. Objectively the pyro just recieved a large and unjustified nerf. If you are concerned about it being a shotgun thats not actually a shotgun, you can replace it with something like a level action rifle, a pistol, or even the engineer railgun.

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Old 03-27-2015, 11:04 PM   #14
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Quote:
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True, but is holding the newbies hand something we should really do (I honestly hate games like that)?
Quote:
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The IC is useless at longer ranges because it's essentially a mortar and it takes time to aim it right, doing that on the fly is not terribly easy.
?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcticRevrus View Post
If its a problem with visual fidelity, then pyro is not the class to do it, which now has the least number weapons of all classes. Its not even that a shotgun specifically is needed, but but a reliable medium to long range weapon to fill the massive gap that the pyro now has in utility. Objectively the pyro just recieved a large and unjustified nerf. If you are concerned about it being a shotgun thats not actually a shotgun, you can replace it with something like a level action rifle, a pistol, or even the engineer railgun.
Yes, created an issue for this: https://github.com/fortressforever/f...ver/issues/149
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Old 03-27-2015, 11:05 PM   #15
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If its a problem with visual fidelity, then pyro is not the class to do it, which now has the least number weapons of all classes. Its not even that a shotgun specifically is needed, but a reliable medium to long range weapon to fill the massive gap that the pyro now has in utility. Objectively the pyro just recieved a large and unjustified nerf. If you are concerned about it being a shotgun thats not actually a shotgun, you can replace it with something like a level action rifle, a pistol, or even the engineer railgun.
Objectively, the Pyro has always been a brawler. One that's up-in-your face. You can EASILY close the distance with an IC jump.

While I agree that it's useful to have the backup weapon, is it terribly relevant when you can get up in their face easily and burn them to death? I'm one of the best in the community if not the best with the pyro in pubs. If you get me on openfire, the shotgun damage is largely irrelevant. At best it's useful to take out a single target from a distance you want to kill and a sentry killer, at worst, useless.

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Old 03-28-2015, 12:15 AM   #16
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I'd love to see the shotgun added back in but I can see why you'd want something done to prevent it from being seen as a good weapon. Replacing it with a weak looking pistol as suggested would be perfect actually because it wouldn't screw the pyro over at mid range. Or perhaps there could be a mandatory tutorial that goes over the basics and also makes sure to outline that?
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Old 03-28-2015, 12:28 AM   #17
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The other problem is that our weapon slots are backwards compared to most games. Most games have their most powerful gun in slot1, with slot2 pistol slot3 melee, e.g. CS, TF2 and I think CoD.
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Old 03-28-2015, 01:18 AM   #18
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AfterShock, I couldn't agree more and would love to have the option to have the weapon slots be setup that way, at least by default, and then have the ability to switch them around if you want for those who are used to the existing slot setup.

I understand the shotgun argument in that a real life shotgun is generally known as a close quarters weapon, but in a game where a lot of the mechanics don't make any sense in a real life scenario such as rocket jumping, I think it's a welcome change. More importantly, I'd rather see all classes have a primary and secondary grenade or certain class mechanics be fixed such as with the Sniper before I would even remotely begin to care about the removal of the single shotgun from the most overpowered close combat class in the game.
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Old 03-28-2015, 02:08 AM   #19
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Was playing Pyro tonight. Tried to hit 2 a few times. There was sadness.

It's useful for shooting people far away and low on health. But, eh, what can you do? Accessibility of the game probably takes precedent.

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Old 03-28-2015, 02:40 AM   #20
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Well I kept trying to access a non-existent shotgun while trying to kill a player that was in the water... too used to it being there.
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