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Old 02-20-2010, 06:10 AM   #481
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Originally Posted by squeek. View Post
How do you learn to avoid a sniper? Does getting shot help my chances of avoiding the next shot? How can I tell what I did wrong that got me shot?
I can name at least a dozen players who can regularly get past me.
Sometimes I get them. Sometimes not.
Now I realize that I'm not in the league of King or Cujo but, I am an above average sniper.
Plenty of players get by me on all maps.
Gwarsbane is a good example. 5 out of 10 times I'll get him but, the rest I gotta take cover or die. Usually the latter.
It seems to me that the devs are VERY offense oriented with their decisions.
This is a "storm in a tea cup".
You take out the sniper you are no longer in the spirit of TF or TFC. You might as well call the mod err.... Offense Oriented Combat or some such.
No good in clan matches but, great fun in pubs.
Snipers most definitely belong. They have been there since day one of Quake TF.
That's all I've got to say. Do as you will.
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Old 02-20-2010, 06:41 AM   #482
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squeek. View Post
How do you learn to avoid a sniper? Does getting shot help my chances of avoiding the next shot? How can I tell what I did wrong that got me shot?
Easy, the way to learn is to stay and keep trying.

Let someone go ahead of you.
Jump out then jump back.
Put some pipes out, wait so that they don't know when you are going to pop out and then run in front of them and jump.
Run around a corner just as the grenade beeps for the 3rd or 4th time.
Look around, direct some of your players to where the sniper is.
Ask for help.

There are lots of things noobs can learn to do to avoid snipers, but to learn them they have to stay.

And as was pointed out, if a noob leaves because a decent sniper keeps getting them then they are going to leave because a decent player in any class keeps killing them.

I have been a heavy, kept killing the same guy over and over again (just kept running into) and he left.

I have been a pyro, kept killing same guy over and over again, he left.

I have been spy kept killing same guy in same spot, he left.

I have been a demo, I kept killing same guy in same spot with pipes, he left.

I have been a soldier, I kept killing same guy, he left.

I have been a medic, I infected him twice, he swore then left.

I have been a scout... I kept getting killed, ok so this one is a bad example for me cause I suck as scout.

I have been an engi, I kept rail gunning someone from across the map, he left.

Guess what, this happens all the time in all kinds of games. If a noob who thinks hes all that, comes in and keeps getting slaughtered they leave.

Its a small community, there are not many servers, though they could be leaving to try to find one filled with other noobs, though thats rare even in games with a large community.


I'm not saying I'm the best, though I am an above average player, but thats because I play with other above average players who keep me on my toes. And thats how a noob learns. Play with players who are better then them, learn how to get past them and the noob will get better.



@Leo

I think you only get me about 2 in 10 or 3 in 10.

Last edited by Gwarsbane; 02-20-2010 at 06:41 AM.
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Old 02-20-2010, 02:51 PM   #483
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FAPFAPFAP UHHHNNNNN
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Old 02-20-2010, 03:37 PM   #484
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Thanks for the useful post Raynian... reminds me of the American Dad episode I watched last night (S01E09)
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Old 02-20-2010, 03:49 PM   #485
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Originally Posted by Raynian View Post
FAPFAPFAP UHHHNNNNN
If being better then average because I play with better then average means I'm doing the above when I talk about experiences I have had, then I guess thats gonna happen a lot because I have scared off made people rage quit many times over the period that I have been playing games, FF included.

I'm being honest when I say I'm a good player. I'm being even more honest when I say I play with good players and that they have pushed me to be better just by playing good.

This is my experience, you play with good people and you will get better. You just have to put time into it. That is my experience with any game and vs any class.

If you play against good snipers and you stay even after being shot a million times, you will learn to get around it.

I've seen when there was 4 snipers on aardvark, I would get shot time after time after time trying to get out. But I eventually figured out where they were, and figured out a way to get out and once I got out, I went after them all. I made them run from their positions which allowed others to get out. It just took time. I have seen others do the same thing.

Again play against good players, stick with it and you will become a better player.
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Old 02-20-2010, 06:33 PM   #486
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You don't get it.

There have been so many shitty counter arguments the snipers in this thread have put out (ha! ha!). The one they always seem to fall back on is that the sniper as a class shouldn't be compared to them, since they're so high skilled - they're void for balance concerns, since they're top tier!

And they really like jerking off on the forums.

When other classes are questioned, the "elites" give hard examples as to why they don't believe x or y is too strong. Soldiers are overpowered in choke points? Well, sure, they're good, but they have a small clip size and a fairly long reload rate, so multiple attackers can rush past him. Can't get past a demo? Try faking him out, or juking him a bit. Do both at once, mess with his head!

"But nothing's wrong with the sniper, you're just basing it off the best of the best! Your argument is null!"

How about you understand the fucking point before you post again. Get a REAL argument as to why the sniper does or does not fit.
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Old 02-20-2010, 10:45 PM   #487
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Originally Posted by Raynian View Post
*clip*.
Don't feed the troll Gwars.
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Old 02-20-2010, 10:49 PM   #488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynian View Post
You don't get it.

There have been so many shitty counter arguments the snipers in this thread have put out (ha! ha!). The one they always seem to fall back on is that the sniper as a class shouldn't be compared to them, since they're so high skilled - they're void for balance concerns, since they're top tier!

And they really like jerking off on the forums.

When other classes are questioned, the "elites" give hard examples as to why they don't believe x or y is too strong. Soldiers are overpowered in choke points? Well, sure, they're good, but they have a small clip size and a fairly long reload rate, so multiple attackers can rush past him. Can't get past a demo? Try faking him out, or juking him a bit. Do both at once, mess with his head!

"But nothing's wrong with the sniper, you're just basing it off the best of the best! Your argument is null!"

How about you understand the fucking point before you post again. Get a REAL argument as to why the sniper does or does not fit.
Yes because....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynian View Post
FAPFAPFAP UHHHNNNNN
Is really a great argument.

I have said many times what I think about the sniper.

I have said many times what I think about the reasons why they want the sniper removed.

My reasons for it to stay and not be nerfed is that its always been in TF games as far as I can remember and that each class does unique stuff the others can't. Sniper can kill from a distance, spy kill you up close, soldier can keep you in the air, scout can zip right past you, medic can heal and infect, heavy can take lots of damage, engi can be in 2 places at once, pyro can do a long lasting burn that can kill quite fast.

Each class can do unique stuff. Just because a sniper can kill from long distance is no reason to remove it. If you remove or nerf a sniper just because they can kill at long distance then you have to remove all the other classes because each of them can do unique stuff.

Just because a person with good skill kills a noob and the noob leaves is also no reason to remove or nerf the sniper. That noob more then likely would have left if anyone with any kind of skill better then them in any other class would have killed them.


"Because it scares off noobs" is a stupid reason. That reason can be used for any class.

"Because it can instant kill from a distance" is a stupid reason. That reason can be used for most of the other classes (really all of them, though you have to be low in heath for some).

"Because it can do stuff other classes can't" is a stupid reason. That reason can be used for any class.


The minds here are pretty much set with no way to change them. Only reason I am making my thoughts known is with the hope that if it comes down to a vote with the devs on if it stays or goes or gets nerfed that the ones who don't want it to go or get nerfed and the ones that could vote either way see that there are people who don't want to see it get taken out or nerfed.


I can't give you hard numbers on stuff that I don't know, but going by the numbers that were presented here in this thread, the sniper is not the end all be all godlike class some claim it is. Their only arguments are "its unique", "it scares off noobs", "it can kill from a distance (pretty much the unique argument)"

We have presented counter arguments to those arguments. We have tried to counter them with logic, but its been useless. We've tried to counter them with examples, but its been useless. We've tried to counter them with personal experience, but its been useless.

Now we have someone saying that our personal experience is just us wacking off and trying to prove our epenises are bigger then everyone elses or at least that what it looks like you are trying to claim.

I'm sorry that I am good and I have said, I am good because I play with other good players. And I got good because I learned how to counter the good players, which made be a better player. Then those good players learned to counter stuff I did and they got better, then I learned to counter them again and so on and so on. Only way to get better is to not give up, saying a class needs to be removed because it scares off noobs ignores the fact that ANY CLASS can do that as long as it has a decent player behind it.
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Old 02-20-2010, 11:27 PM   #489
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Jesus fucking christ, not the 'every class is unique' argument again. Of course every class can discourage new players, but that's simply the surface of the issue. You have to dig deeper and analyze what discourages people and decide whether it is because they are inexperienced and easily irritated or is it because the irritant is a broken class that plays the game at a core level that is different from the other classes?

It's simple. Interaction comes at the cost of safety and the increase of risk. The decrease of risk and increase of safety comes at the cost of interaction. Nine classes follow this rule, and therefore when one player can interact, then the players he can interact with can also interact with him. If one class is at long range to increase safety and decrease risk, then he does not have the ability to interact as well, thus granting the other players at range safety as well.

The Sniper does not follow this pattern one-hundred percent. The only example where the Sniper is balanced at-least by this standard (I'll argue about his damage and insta-gib capability elsewhere) is close range. At long range, he earns both interaction and the decrease of safety and risk whereas his opponents, limited to close range for almost all of their interactions, lose everything: interaction, safety and take on heavy risk just popping out of their fucking base.

It's simple to understand! It makes perfect sense. However, you will rationalize everything that gets put forward as a 'weak argument' against the Sniper and/or purely 'crying or whining' because you don't want to admit your class is a fucking joke and, in my opinion, so are you for playing it. It's not about strategy. It's not about getting by. It's not about coping. I cope with a lot of shit on a day to day basis, but simply because I cope with it doesn't make it alright.

Just because the Sniper can't address all the targets on the battlefield and people get through doesn't make it a balanced fucking class, because it still had an unfair advantage over the people the player DID kill. That's a bit like surviving a shooting incident and saying "Sure, a lot of people were killed, but a lot of people also got by unharmed, so murder isn't a problem." BRB laughing.

Last edited by Bridget; 02-21-2010 at 12:02 AM.
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Old 02-21-2010, 04:00 AM   #490
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Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
Jesus fucking christ, not the 'every class is unique' argument again. Of course every class can discourage new players, but that's simply the surface of the issue. You have to dig deeper and analyze what discourages people and decide whether it is because they are inexperienced and easily irritated or is it because the irritant is a broken class that plays the game at a core level that is different from the other classes?

It's simple. Interaction comes at the cost of safety and the increase of risk. The decrease of risk and increase of safety comes at the cost of interaction. Nine classes follow this rule, and therefore when one player can interact, then the players he can interact with can also interact with him. If one class is at long range to increase safety and decrease risk, then he does not have the ability to interact as well, thus granting the other players at range safety as well.

The Sniper does not follow this pattern one-hundred percent. The only example where the Sniper is balanced at-least by this standard (I'll argue about his damage and insta-gib capability elsewhere) is close range. At long range, he earns both interaction and the decrease of safety and risk whereas his opponents, limited to close range for almost all of their interactions, lose everything: interaction, safety and take on heavy risk just popping out of their fucking base.

It's simple to understand! It makes perfect sense. However, you will rationalize everything that gets put forward as a 'weak argument' against the Sniper and/or purely 'crying or whining' because you don't want to admit your class is a fucking joke and, in my opinion, so are you for playing it. It's not about strategy. It's not about getting by. It's not about coping. I cope with a lot of shit on a day to day basis, but simply because I cope with it doesn't make it alright.

Just because the Sniper can't address all the targets on the battlefield and people get through doesn't make it a balanced fucking class, because it still had an unfair advantage over the people the player DID kill. That's a bit like surviving a shooting incident and saying "Sure, a lot of people were killed, but a lot of people also got by unharmed, so murder isn't a problem." BRB laughing.
Time to check yourself in for psychiatric evaluation Bridget.
It's just a friggin' game.
The sniper class being a "fucking joke" is once again your opinion only. (I know others share it)
As I said it's only a game which you play to have fun.
I play sniper because it is fun for me. I really don't care what you think about that. Throw all the tantrums you want.
If the sniper stays then I will continue to play it when I see fit to.
If the sniper goes then I will probably play engy and if the mod turns out to be no longer fun I will move to another game or mod.

If the sniper stays then YOU will have to make a decision weather you can live with it or not.

There's always someone who thinks they know what's good for everyone else.
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Old 02-21-2010, 04:05 AM   #491
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Old 02-21-2010, 05:38 AM   #492
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For me, things become fun while remaining fair. Things are hardly fun when people exploit broken classes to get their own personal dose of fun at the expense of the game for everyone else.
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Old 02-22-2010, 04:32 AM   #493
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it'll be fun to see soliders on 2fort if the sniper is removed. lol just standing on battlements firing from across the yard at long range, no threat of being hurt with the high hp, and because of the splash damage, a high chance of damaging or killing his targets... atleast as a sniper i have to hit my target. oh right but my class is the joke... brb laughing.
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Old 02-22-2010, 06:44 AM   #494
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it'll be fun to see soliders on 2fort if the sniper is removed. lol just standing on battlements firing from across the yard at long range, no threat of being hurt with the high hp, and because of the splash damage, a high chance of damaging or killing his targets... atleast as a sniper i have to hit my target. oh right but my class is the joke... brb laughing.
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Old 02-22-2010, 08:40 AM   #495
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Originally Posted by Gwarsbane View Post
A shitload of crying and other stuff
Your entire argument has been debased in this thread. Several times. And you still go back to the "skill" cliche! Thanks for proving what I said, mate.

How about this:

Give me a bullet list of all your reasons why the sniper is fine as it is. I'll systematically dismantle each and every one of them. Don't hide your examples in a wall of "so don't really think it's overpowered, you just think it is because I'm/he's/X is so pro lah~". In return (gee, aren't I nice?), I'll back my response up with cold, hard facts.
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Old 02-22-2010, 04:33 PM   #496
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I (and many others) have countered the reasons why Bridget (and others) want to remove/nerf the sniper many times.

If you want it so simple that even an amoeba can handle it, then fine here are the reasons why they want it removed/nerfed and the counters to those reasons.


**********************
Reason for it to be removed/nerfed: Because its unique. It can do something another class can't do.

Counter: Every class is suppose to be unique. Every class can do at least 1 or 2 things that the other classes can't do. If you remove a class because its unique and can do something another class can't then you're gonna have to remove every class for the same reason.
**********************


**********************
Reason for it to be removed/nerfed: Because it scares off noobs by killing them time and again at long distance.

Counter: A noob can be scared off by any class in the game. If someone is better then the noob and the noob keeps getting killed and that noob is unwilling/unable to learn what they are doing wrong then they will get fed up and leave. If a noob leaves after being shot once at long distance by a sniper then more then likely they were not going to be playing for long anyway.
**********************


**********************
Reason for it to be removed/nerfed: Because it can kill long distance.

Counter: All classes can kill long distance, the sniper can just do it a little faster.
**********************


**********************
Reason for it to be removed/nerfed: Because if there is a good sniper you can't get out of your base.

Counter: This can go for any class. If you have a decent player in any class it can make it impossible to get out of your base if you don't think about how to get out. But there are always ways out, you just have to think.
**********************


**********************
Reason for it to be removed/nerfed: Because it doesn't belong.

Counter: Why not? Sniper has been in TF games since the start I believe.
**********************


**********************
Reason for it to be removed/nerfed: Because when there are more then 1 it makes it impossible to get out of the base even if the snipers don't have good skill.

Counter: Same can be sound about any class when there is more then one of that class.
**********************


**********************
Reason for it to be removed/nerfed: Because they don't do anything to help the team.

Counter: They slow down the other team and make them think about how to get to the other base. They put tags on the other team that allows their team to see them coming or help find the enemy.
**********************


**********************
Reason for it to be removed/nerfed: Because they don't help capture the flag, they just stay in one area.

Counter: Many snipers move around, find new places to go. There is nothing stopping a sniper from going into the enemy base and taking the flag. It has been done before and it will be done in the future.

They also help their team by tagging/slowing down/killing any one chasing the flag carrier just like the rest of the team can (well except for the tagging).
**********************


**********************
Reason for it to be removed/nerfed: Because they are useless up close and die easy.

Counter: Some classes are good up close some are good long distance. While snipers aren't all that great with up close fighting, either is the scout, medic or engi. (well medic and engi are iffy, at least they have decent shotguns)
**********************



Did I miss any? Are the reasons and counter reasons clear enough for you? I don't know if I can make them anymore clear or simple.

I know this isn't going to actually sway anyone, everyone here has pretty much made up their mind. And I'm tired of countering the same stupid arguments over and over again.


And Raynian you said I was crying and other stuff when I bring in personal experience in about why the sniper is a good class and shouldn't be removed/nerfed, yet you ignore Bridget's personal experience with snipers which was "Waaaaaaa I can't get out of the spawn cause the big bad sniper keeps killing me". Bridget has been playing long enough that by now he should be able to get out of the spawn without always getting shot. And if he can't then do you really want to blindly follow someone who has to have things nerfed/removed so that he can just get out of the spawn?

Hes the one that crying and other stuff. Hes the one that wants the sniper removed/nerfed because he can't get past it. That sounds like crying and other stuff to me.
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Old 02-22-2010, 08:31 PM   #497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwarsbane View Post
Reason for it to be removed/nerfed: Because its unique. It can do something another class can't do.

Counter: Every class is suppose to be unique. Every class can do at least 1 or 2 things that the other classes can't do. If you remove a class because its unique and can do something another class can't then you're gonna have to remove every class for the same reason.
Just because something is unique does not mean it fits. In a way, every other class is unique - like you've said! - but they're also very similar in terms of engagement, interaction. Soldiers can shoot rockets, but it's really no different from using a shotty or a pipe - works well at close range, decently at medium, and not at all once you get far away.

However! For the sake of argument, I'll pretend like I agree that having a long range attack is fine for this paragraph. If the sniper was just that, a sniper, who really IS helpless when an enemy gets all up in his face, then I wouldn't have as much an issue. But that's not the case. The sniper is just as efficient at killing enemies that are near him, as he is at long distance. Let me give some examples. Apologies for the shitty "template".

DM Effectiveness (1-10)
----------------
Class Long Medium Short
Scout 1 1 3
Medic 2 4 7
Demoman* 2* 4* 9
HWG 2 3 8 (he sucks too much for 9/10)
Sniper 8 8 9

*Demoman have pipes, obviously. This is fine, though, because there are ways to deal with pipes!

Rockets will not hit at long range. Shotties will do maybe 3 damage. Nails are a joke. The sniper rifle, which is a hitscan weapon, will do a -minimum- of 45 damage (compare this to the sshotty, which will do about equivalent damage at close range). Charging will quickly put it up. Headshots do double. A mid-charged headshot will gib anyone except for soldiers and heavies, but one more hit will do the job! And this is still from across the entire map.

But we've discussed this! Of course we have, so let me get to why I rated the sniper a 9 at close range. First off, realize that comparatively, he's not at as much an advantage - 9v7 against medics, compared to 8v2 before. But he's still ahead of them.

Why? He keeps the sniper rifle, which is just as strong as it is when he's aiming across the map. Even a low-charge headshot will nearly kill a medic, which you can then finish off with a grenade (which you conveniently can carry four of) or couple of AR bursts. And you can shoot the sniper rifle about twice a second! That's almost as fast as the sshotty. The only downside is that you have to stop while firing, but with how easy it is to stop in place in FF, that's not as much of an issue as it should be. And you can charge up, don't forget! So when that pesky soldier or medic shows his head, slug him. It's easier to aim that close, too!

Another thing he has going for him is his ridiculously fast run speed. 300 base? That's only twenty slower than the medic. Faster than any other class that would be juking the sniper. (Plus legshots!) When someone's on him, he can just whip out his AR or nailgun and dance back to spawn. That's really goddamn frustrating, by the way, trying to deal with a sniper who just sits outside spawn.

He's also got about 130 total hit points, when you factor in armor (I realize that not all the armor will be "used" by the time the sniper is dead). Not much? Well, sure, comparatively, but it's enough to soak up a nearby grenade and a sshotty. Or a couple of rockets. If the sniper gets a preemptive shot on a medic or demo, he'll be equal or ahead of them on health and can just AR them.

So this entire section, what was the point of it? Well, see, each class is unique. I fully agree with you! But each other class, while different, follows the general principle of "weak at long range, decent mid, stronger up close" (barring scout, of course). If the sniper were fine, he'd be "strong long, weak close". Or vice versa. Having the sniper be the best at all ranges does not work.

Quote:
Reason for it to be removed/nerfed: Because it scares off noobs by killing them time and again at long distance.

Counter: A noob can be scared off by any class in the game. If someone is better then the noob and the noob keeps getting killed and that noob is unwilling/unable to learn what they are doing wrong then they will get fed up and leave. If a noob leaves after being shot once at long distance by a sniper then more then likely they were not going to be playing for long anyway.
See, there are ways around other classes. If a demo is playing yard, it's not too tough to get past him. He will not be killing nearly as many people as a sniper would. When he dies, he needs time to get back into "position" (in this case, the yard for his dickery). Plus, even WITHOUT bhopping or concing, a couple of newbs would be able to split up and be able to get into the base, or juke him together and still get through the yard.

A sniper can just peg them both. Even if they do make it past him, his defense has a wallhack on those players, not to forget the damage from the slugs.

What about that soldier who's really good at guarding a choke? Well, simple. Pick a tougher O class, like a medic or soldier, and take him down. This is a great example to point out, because you're overcoming someone and working towards the objective - capturing the flag! Can't get past him? Look for other ways around the base, nearly all maps have divergences once you get past the yard.

But not many maps have multiple ways through a yard, or have a "choke" (really more of a large open area at the end, like redgiant) where snipers congregate. Take 2fort. The yard's right there for everyone to see. There's the water, sure! But if an enemy sniper is making you use the water, he's making you take three times as long to get into the enemy base. Mission accomplished. It's ridiculous.

What about having someone on sniper duty? Well, usually it takes several people to quell the sniper threat. And if you have people focusing on just the snipers, then they're not playing the game it's meant to be played. It might be fun for the occasional person to spend a while hunting snipers, but it slows gameplay down. And smart snipers will retreat to the inside of their base, such as the top of the ramp on aardvark or the batts/fr in well, causing a DvDfest. Whatever happens, it stagnates the game.


Quote:
Reason for it to be removed/nerfed: Because it can kill long distance.

Counter: All classes can kill long distance, the sniper can just do it a little faster.
The sniper rifle is a hitscan weapon with a minimum power of 45, quickly ups, doubles on headshot, has crippling and radiotag, and no cone of fire (aim variance). If you're speed sniping, you can fire one shot per two single shotties, or about two shots per three super shotties. Sure, if you're tapping people with the single shotty (better at long range) long distance for three damage, you'll eventually kill them. It'll only take you about one hundred shells to kill a soldier. A sniper can take his head off with three well placed shots, or just one that has medium charge. "A little faster" is a bit of an understatement.

Also see; above point on how sniper can also work well at close range.

Quote:
Reason for it to be removed/nerfed: Because if there is a good sniper you can't get out of your base.

Counter: This can go for any class. If you have a decent player in any class it can make it impossible to get out of your base if you don't think about how to get out. But there are always ways out, you just have to think.
Not really. If enemies are camping your spawn, all it takes is a MIRV or EMP to clear them out. Without a respawn time, you can just rush the doors until you kill them. The campers won't be back until they've crossed the yard again - and if they're the classes that actually COULD spawn camp, it'll take some time for that to happen.

For most maps, there's only one way through the yard, unless you take twice/threefold the time using some exotic scenic route (the water). Okay, a sniper won't kill you every time. But a sniper is a lot more of a threat than a spawn camper is. And more aggravating, since there's no simple way to counter snipers.

Quote:
Reason for it to be removed/nerfed: Because it doesn't belong.

Counter: Why not? Sniper has been in TF games since the start I believe.
Even if snipers were always meant to kill in the yard, I would argue they don't belong. Yard dickery halts gameplay. The gameplay of FF being working towards objectives (capping flags).

Already said enough about this above, I think. General question, general answer from previous sections.

Quote:
Reason for it to be removed/nerfed: Because when there are more then 1 it makes it impossible to get out of the base even if the snipers don't have good skill.

Counter: Same can be sound about any class when there is more then one of that class.
You're not going to see a lockdown of an entire base just because two soldiers are outside spawn. Like I said before, one EMP will destroy them. A newb firing rockets and dropnades out of spawn will be able to ward them off and get past. Someone who can't use advanced movement skills has almost no chance getting past a couple of snipers, and then the rest of the defense.

Quote:
Reason for it to be removed/nerfed: Because they don't do anything to help the team.

Counter: They slow down the other team and make them think about how to get to the other base. They put tags on the other team that allows their team to see them coming or help find the enemy.
Oh sure, they help their team. They just don't help gameplay.

Four soldiers/medics/heavies/whatevers coming to your base on 2fort? A pair of snipers will drop two of those guys, and severely weaken the other two (and tag/cripple). Great! Now the two that never had a chance will try to cross again, but since it's just those two, they're dead meat. Every time until they get more people. Scouts may get by, even without conc/bhop, but since we're talking about pubs, they have no chance against a SG in the base.

Go another way? Already said it, if there's more than one way through a yard, it's usually not worth it anyways. Counter the snipers? Great, now you've got a need for players on sniper duty. Fantastic.

Since the offense is so broken up, the other team gets pissed at attacking and goes D. DvD!

Quote:
Reason for it to be removed/nerfed: Because they don't help capture the flag, they just stay in one area.

Counter: Many snipers move around, find new places to go. There is nothing stopping a sniper from going into the enemy base and taking the flag. It has been done before and it will be done in the future.

They also help their team by tagging/slowing down/killing any one chasing the flag carrier just like the rest of the team can (well except for the tagging).
By design, the class is not intended to capture flags. It's intended to shoot people. I could say that fatties and engies cap flags a lot, and for engies, it's probably true. And great, class variance, whatever. But come on. Be honest. Most snipers sit on their batts/in their base and play yard dickery. If they're moving around, it just pisses off the "sniper duty" players even more, since now they have to hunt for their target.

If they kill someone chasing the flag carrier from a distance, it's a letdown. They wouldn't be focusing on the sniper, if they even knew he was there - at least if a soldier's trying to cover a carrier, you can try to dance around him since you know where he is.

Quote:
Reason for it to be removed/nerfed: Because they are useless up close and die easy.

Counter: Some classes are good up close some are good long distance. While snipers aren't all that great with up close fighting, either is the scout, medic or engi. (well medic and engi are iffy, at least they have decent shotguns)
I'll ignore the mangled structure of that reason/counter section. The thing is, the sniper loses nothing at close range. If anything, he becomes more accurate. When you have the preemptive shot that deals, oh, on average, 100 damage for low/mid charge, and instagibs at higher charges, being in proximity doesn't mean anything. Sure, other classes become more effective, but it doesn't discount the fact that the sniper still has an instagib weapon at his disposal, grenades, fast speed, and special abilities.

Quote:
Holy shit more pleading to the masses, cry some more. You're not even addressing me in your last paragraph. You're like a kid, trying to persuade your friends to back you up without having the balls to confront me yourself.
That's my tl;dr post of the month.

Last edited by Raynian; 02-22-2010 at 08:33 PM.
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Old 02-22-2010, 09:32 PM   #498
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Old 02-22-2010, 09:38 PM   #499
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Old 02-23-2010, 03:46 PM   #500
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I read a suggestion somewhere here suggesting that the sniper extend the reload time, charge time or a recoil effect. Sounds pretty good for non-snipers as it gives them more time to run across the map or get cover if the shot doesn't hit.

What about this...

There is only a charged shot or a non-charged shot. If you charge up to anything in-between these two extremes and shoot before the bar is full, the damage dealt will be that of a completely non-charged shot.

Non-charged shot gives radio-tag. Leg shots and head shots don't give any effects.

Charged shot has 3 levels of damage:
- legshot = deals the least amount of damage (still more than a non-charged) and gives slowed movement effect.
- mid section = middle amount of damage, no effect.
- head shot = insta-gib. death no matter what class, armor, or health boost.

Combine all these with an extended charge time.

If this is something that can be worked with, this is only nerfing and I feel there should be something added to the sniper as well. Just can't think of a good idea.
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