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Old 02-05-2010, 01:18 PM   #361
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Originally Posted by Dr.Satan View Post
then why did you bother replying? I seriously hate that mentality. "I didn't read everything you said, but I got the jist of it and here is my un-informed opinion..." Either read it all or don't, but if you're not going to then don't reply.
whats your problem? i wasn't wrong and i wasn't uninformed. he has some good ideas, i pointed out one thing in his idea that i felt would not work. im sorry but if i feel like commenting on one sentence of a post i will.
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Old 02-05-2010, 11:37 PM   #362
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yo GenghisTron, you canīt simple take tk20 personal kdratio as sniper, as you link it. I Bet if you get a personal Kdratio of a good soldier playng in a pub would be the same, fair analysis is one that represents a comparison between all players / all classes.


Now I haven't played alot on zE's server, as TK has, but i've played a bit, and as you can see I'm more than competant at both classes with a k:d almost in 4 as sniper and above 4 as soldier. And you can see a few things. I've played soldier 18 times less than i have sniper and already i have almost half the kills as i do as sniper. When playing soldier, because it's such a strong class both in HP/ARMOUR and in it's weapons, i die far less compared to sniper. When playing sniper getting swarmed and harassed it's a challenge to pick someone off long range when getting naded up close.

Last edited by blackout; 02-06-2010 at 12:39 AM.
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Old 02-06-2010, 10:33 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Green Mushy View Post
Some theories as to why the sniper doesnt fit, in a more objective way:
  • All classes lose effectiveness over range
  • All classes must take a risk to deal damage effectively
  • All classes have a mechanic where the more risk you take, the higher chance for reward. Meaning that, as u get closer, u can do more damage.
  • All classes are fun to play against
sums up my general opinion, too.

but just to add, i don't think we'd ever see the sniper fans wilfully renounce their status quo. i think the nearest compromise that could be made would be to take the sniper out of the roster on maps with game mechanics such as CTF.

to be honest, it might even be better if the sniper was a niche weapon that was explicitly placed on certain maps, and could be picked up by other classes from a w_ model, and remove/replace the sniper class entirely.
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Old 02-06-2010, 02:11 PM   #364
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I don't think the sniper should be removed.

Perhaps it should be up to the server admin to decide?

Any class for that matter could be cut out on a server.
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Old 02-06-2010, 06:11 PM   #365
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under the above proposals, it would be in the map's Lua whether the sniper rifle exists or not.

could i ask from the sniper fans, besides the removal of the sniper rifle on certain maps, how do you feel about a move of the sniper from class to pickup weapon, assuming the rifle's properties stay the same? i'd like to know whether your allegiance is with the class or with the weapon. i'm guessing it's the latter.

Last edited by mervaka; 02-06-2010 at 06:11 PM.
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Old 02-06-2010, 07:05 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by mervaka
to be honest, it might even be better if the sniper was a niche weapon that was explicitly placed on certain maps, and could be picked up by other classes from a w_ model, and remove/replace the sniper class entirely.
Well I'm sure spies would LOVE having a sniper rifle when standing still and cloaked.
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Old 02-06-2010, 08:56 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by mervaka View Post
under the above proposals, it would be in the map's Lua whether the sniper rifle exists or not.

could i ask from the sniper fans, besides the removal of the sniper rifle on certain maps, how do you feel about a move of the sniper from class to pickup weapon, assuming the rifle's properties stay the same? i'd like to know whether your allegiance is with the class or with the weapon. i'm guessing it's the latter.
Unless I read you wrong, you are saying any class would be able to pick up the Sniper rifle.

That's a terrible idea. A spy with a sniper rifle would be horrifically overpowered. The ability to cloak would kill one of the snipers main weaknesses.

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Old 02-06-2010, 10:07 PM   #368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mervaka View Post
under the above proposals, it would be in the map's Lua whether the sniper rifle exists or not.

could i ask from the sniper fans, besides the removal of the sniper rifle on certain maps, how do you feel about a move of the sniper from class to pickup weapon, assuming the rifle's properties stay the same? i'd like to know whether your allegiance is with the class or with the weapon. i'm guessing it's the latter.
I play many classes (including sniper), and I think this would be a BAD idea. Removing it would also be a bad idea as you would loose many in the community (just look at how many left after the last time it was badly nerfed, and not every one has come back since it was mostly fixed).
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Old 02-06-2010, 10:51 PM   #369
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First off, I'm glad to see that the discussion has changed from hate to solution. Although I still don't understand removing the sniper on the basis that he has a long range advantage, and that he doesn't fit in. I can understand people being upset over good snipers killing them, but to the point of removing the class?

A scout/medic that can conc and air strafe shouldn't really have a problem getting past the sniper. The sniper may pick him off 1 out of 3 or 4 concs, but no more if there's plenty of offence. I'm sure that it looks stuborn with this defense, but it's true. The classes that might get picked off are soldiers/demos/heavys/pyros trying to go offensive. But that's not the snipers fault, those classes shouldn't be running offence in the first place.

If the right classes are running offence then the other team shouldn't really have a problem. As far as all classes are fun to play against, there are always quite a few who have fun running up and stabbing me in the back or emping me on the deck. Although I don't find the spy fun to play against I don't complain, I embrace the challenge that his class has advantages over mine!
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Old 02-07-2010, 12:20 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by blackout View Post
The classes that might get picked off are soldiers/demos/heavys/pyros trying to go offensive. But that's not the snipers fault, those classes shouldn't be running offence in the first place.
Personally I would like to see offenses include a mix of classes - yes even HW if the occasional calls for it. Part of the problem I think with DvD is that the only classes that can consistently get past the snipers are med/scout, and only then if they have an advanced skill set: HH concing, air strafing, bhop. If 7 of the 9 classes are relegated to defense inside base, that's less fun.
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Old 02-07-2010, 01:48 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by Green Mushy View Post
Some theories as to why the sniper doesnt fit, in a more objective way:
  • All classes lose effectiveness over range
Yes, the sniper is unique in this sense. Every class is unique and that's the great part of TF. Bridget will say 'this is a potato among fruits' - but completely ignore the fact that this analogy doesn't make this class unique in some magically different way. You can explain WHY a potato isn't a fruit and that doesn't necessarily make it any more different from certain fruits than some fruits from other fruits (tongue twister!). Until you tell us WHY this particular ability is different from the special abilities of any other class, this argument doesn't make sense. The sniper is different and so is every other class.

I understand that the rest of these points try to differentiate though, so:


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Originally Posted by Green Mushy View Post
  • All classes must take a risk to deal damage effectively
The sniper takes risk too. On 95% of maps there isn't really a 'safe' place from which to snipe. Yes, aardvark rocks and is a great sniper map (just like there are maps that create an advantage for other classes too); so is 1/3 of anticitizen. On virtually every other map the sniper takes significant risk. More risk than a demoman with pipes laid who's hiding somewhere waiting to blow them up. More risk than an engineer who's built a gun that's killing people while they don't even need to be there. More risk than an invisible spy who's waiting for someone to pass them so that they can be in position for an easy backstab (yeah, you think this one's 'broken' too, but I disagree here as well).

None of these examples fit your very narrow view of a version of team fortress with mulch-style play and nothing else. The appeal of TF is a wide range of abilities and situations.


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Originally Posted by Green Mushy View Post
  • All classes have a mechanic where the more risk you take, the higher chance for reward. Meaning that, as u get closer, u can do more damage.
Yes, range makes the sniper unique but that doesn't mean that he's not rewarded for higher-risk situations. There are many spots that are both powerful for the sniper and high risk. The top of the map on well and on shutdown2 are both powerful positions for snipers that are very accessible by the enemy offense and are high-risk, for example. Battlements on 2fort, openfire, congestus.. I could go on and on...

A demoman laying pipes and waiting to blow them from a distance is no different than a sniper shooting people from a distance in this respect either. The engineer can sit in spawn with zero risk while his gun mows people down. All of these situations require less risk than sniping (even on a good sniper map!) and so these classes both excel outside of your one dimensional view of what this game should be (and I didn't even bring up the 'broken' spy!).

It seems like you just want everyone mulching instead of enjoying the variety of classes and situations currently present in the game. Some people like mulch-style play so much that they would prefer to ONLY have that type of game, but I don't think that this is exemplary of why FF is fun.


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Originally Posted by Green Mushy View Post
  • All classes are fun to play against
I have as much fun playing a good sniper as I do a good solider or any other good player. If they're good you're going to be frustrated - especially if you're on offense constantly running into this brick wall of a player (of ANY defensive class - I've seen soldiers hold down sprial on 2fort that were next to impossible to get past; there might as well have been a wall there). I also have as much fun playing a bad sniper as I do a bad solider, which is a lot of fun until I realize I'm NEVER frustrated and the game gets boring quickly (some frustration is absolutely necessary for a game to be fun). It's not about the class, it's about the skill level of the player.

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Originally Posted by Green Mushy View Post
Its like saying "spy is broken, so its ok that sniper is broken."
Neither is broken.

Last edited by TheKing; 02-07-2010 at 01:50 AM.
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Old 02-07-2010, 02:41 AM   #372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKing View Post
The sniper is different and so is every other class.
No other class causes as much frustration, and really has so much ambiguity as to whether it is beneficial to the game or not. This game is a game of fruits, meaning that, there are properties that they all have. If u throw a potatoe into the mix, it either has properties that all the others dont, or doesnt have properties of all the other fruits. In those cases, there is an oddball among the bunch.


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The sniper takes risk too.
This is so fucking wrong, and i think the fact that u actually believe this means there is no way in ever changing your mind. Luckily that is not the objective of this discussion.

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Originally Posted by TheKing View Post
None of these examples fit your very narrow view of a version of team fortress with mulch-style play and nothing else. The appeal of TF is a wide range of abilities and situations.
Nobody is targeting anything so ferociously. Nobody in their right mind is targeting Soldier and saying "hes the only class that shoots rockets, he doesnt fit." So that whole argument that just because sniper has properties that no other class has is completely bunk. Nobody is targeting HW and saying his AC is unique, therefor not allowed in the game. Nobody is targeting ANY issue other then sniper. If other issues are targeted, it is because they are broken in one way or another as well.

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A demoman laying pipes and waiting to blow them from a distance is no different than a sniper shooting people from a distance in this respect either.
Wrong again. A player has to knowingly run into these pipes. His life is not threatened. His decision to go into the pipes is made by him alone. Not only that, the player has a decision whether to dm the demo, run away from the pipes, and have fun doing any decision he chooses. In the case of the sniper, your life is threatened and there is nothing u can do to counteract that other then take a strategy of not interacting with the sniper( moving out of his sight ) or hoping that u dont get shot. Neither are fun.

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Originally Posted by TheKing View Post
The engineer can sit in spawn with zero risk while his gun mows people down.
Wrong again. For a sentrygun to shoot somebody, players need to be in range where they can also shoot back. There are actually situations where players can shoot the gun and not even be shot at. The gun is automated and is very stupid at times. There are countermeasures that are actually fun in the maneuvering around and combating a sentrygun.

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Originally Posted by TheKing View Post
It seems like you just want everyone mulching instead of enjoying the variety of classes and situations currently present in the game.
I want people having fun and completing objective with movement and unique class abilities. If certain classes abilities take away from that, or seem unfair and cause frustration, i want to remove that problem. Objective oriented play is the best way to play the game.

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Neither is broken.
Wrong.
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Old 02-07-2010, 03:33 AM   #373
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No other class causes as much frustration, and really has so much ambiguity as to whether it is beneficial to the game or not.
I think the spy is the most frustrating overall, but in the right hands so are the HW and pyro. Any class in the right hands is frustrating, the sniper is no different. What do you mean by beneficial to the game? I think preserving the game's diversity would be beneficial to the game, personally.

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Originally Posted by Green Mushy View Post
This game is a game of fruits, meaning that, there are properties that they all have. If u throw a potatoe into the mix, it either has properties that all the others dont, or doesnt have properties of all the other fruits. In those cases, there is an oddball among the bunch.
Correct. So is the spy, demo, or engineer the oddball? Every class is a potato in certain instances because every single class has properties that none of the others do. That's what I'm trying to say.


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This is so fucking wrong, and i think the fact that u actually believe this means there is no way in ever changing your mind. Luckily that is not the objective of this discussion.
We strongly disagree but I've had my mind changed before by good points. IMO you're very wrong and the fact that you think that the sniper takes no risk and that an engy with an SG or even a defensive solider in a hallway take significantly more means that there is no way in ever changing your mind...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Mushy View Post
Nobody is targeting anything so ferociously. Nobody in their right mind is targeting Soldier and saying "hes the only class that shoots rockets, he doesnt fit." So that whole argument that just because sniper has properties that no other class has is completely bunk. Nobody is targeting HW and saying his AC is unique, therefor not allowed in the game. Nobody is targeting ANY issue other then sniper. If other issues are targeted, it is because they are broken in one way or another as well.
I actually HAVE heard people bitching about the heavy (probably more than or as much as the sniper) since the dawn of TF. Again, my point is that every class has properties that no other class has. I've had this discussion with a ton of people targeting the spy, HW, pyro, sniper, and medic (that's off the top of my head). If other issues are targeted, it's because they have unique abilities that some people don't like. The sniper is a favorite among these, but going down the road of removing everything that some people have problems with leads to a situation where there's one class. I LIKE the diversity of the game and appreciate the ability of each class to cause frustration.

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Wrong again. A player has to knowingly run into these pipes. His life is not threatened. His decision to go into the pipes is made by him alone. Not only that, the player has a decision whether to dm the demo, run away from the pipes, and have fun doing any decision he chooses. In the case of the sniper, your life is threatened and there is nothing u can do to counteract that other then take a strategy of not interacting with the sniper( moving out of his sight ) or hoping that u dont get shot. Neither are fun.
Wrong again. Sniper's aren't invisible (like spies), you almost always know that they're there. Offense is required to deal with pipes laid on security and does not have the decision to run or go around. In some cases there's an alternate way to go if you want to avoid the sniper, but sometimes there's not. Again, offense doesn't have the choice to run away or go around. The same goes for a solider in a key hallway that cannot be avoided in rout to the flag; even if you try to confront them straight up in that hallway, if they're any good you're going to be at a huge disadvantage. None of these scenarios are fun for the offense.

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Originally Posted by Green Mushy View Post
Wrong again. For a sentrygun to shoot somebody, players need to be in range where they can also shoot back. There are actually situations where players can shoot the gun and not even be shot at. The gun is automated and is very stupid at times. There are countermeasures that are actually fun in the maneuvering around and combating a sentrygun.
My comment was in response to your argument that the sniper does not take risk, not to your argument that range is somehow more beneficial to the sniper than a cloak to a spy or an enclosed hallway to a solider. What could be less risky that having a gun killing people when you're hiding in perfect safety? Even if the gun does get confused and dies you're still at zero risk. The sniper DOES have less risk over distance than other classes (despite the vulnerability at close range), so does a solider in a hallway or a cloaked spy or an engineer with a gun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Mushy View Post
I want people having fun and completing objective with movement and unique class abilities. If certain classes abilities take away from that, or seem unfair and cause frustration, i want to remove that problem. Objective oriented play is the best way to play the game.
Great, but several classes don't meet your definition of fair. If you truely want fair let's just make one defensive class and one offensive class or better yet just one class total. There is no such thing as a fair fight between two different classes in FF even if the skill of the players was thrown out - depending on the particular situation one will always be at an advantage.

All classes cause frustration in the right hands (which is a good thing, I bore of games with no frustration involved pretty fast). I agree with your statement about objective oriented play, but we can encourage objectives without removing class diversity (which is just as important to TF as the objectives - those two things, class diversity and the unique objectives, differentiate this game from every other).

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Originally Posted by Green Mushy View Post
Wrong.
Statements without an objective right or wrong can only be wrong on a person-by-person basis! I believe that no classes are broken and many people agree with me.

Last edited by TheKing; 02-07-2010 at 03:46 AM.
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Old 02-07-2010, 04:07 AM   #374
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Sigh~ Well, here I go again.

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I think the spy is the most frustrating overall, but in the right hands so are the HW and pyro. Any class in the right hands is frustrating, the sniper is no different. What do you mean by beneficial to the game? I think preserving the game's diversity would be beneficial to the game, personally.
You continue to look at the issue out of scope. These classes can be frustrating to some people, but is that frustration produced because the class is broken by mechanic or is it just some unjustified annoyance because the player didn't capitalize on his ability to fight back or made a mistake? Getting frustrated in general is not an argument, because you have to tell us why people get frustrated. Is it over some petty shit or because the class they were playing against is so unbelievably advantageous that they couldn't even fight back?

Besides, arguing that 'other classes are frustrating or advantageous!" doesn't mean the Sniper isn't. We just have more to look at. If other classes are just as broken as the Sniper, then they can be addressed elsewhere. Every time you make this comparison, it looks like some classic red-herring. "Look here, look here, don't look back there." Also, by saying such, you are concluding that the Sniper is a problem, are you not?

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Correct. So is the spy, demo, or engineer the oddball? Every class is a potato in certain instances because every single class has properties that none of the others do. That's what I'm trying to say.
Another argument out of scope. Every class is unique and every class has unique abilities, but being unique doesn't default to being a problem. You stop right before you get to the point where you have to define how the other classes are just as broken as the Sniper (with arguments to the contrary) and like the comparison above, no matter how 'odd' the other classes might be, let them be addressed elsewhere. This argument is about the Sniper. Are you going to argue for him or are you going to argue against other classes when you have to rationalize that the Sniper isn't a problem? Where are the twenty page threads about how broken Scout is?

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We strongly disagree but I've had my mind changed before by good points. IMO you're very wrong and the fact that you think that the sniper takes no risk and that an engy with an SG or even a defensive solider in a hallway take significantly more means that there is no way in ever changing your mind...
No one in their right mind would conclude that the Sniper is 'absolutely' risk-free. When we say that the Sniper takes 'no risk' what we really mean is that the Sniper doesn't take enough risk. Risk = Reward is what I am going to call it. The higher the risk you take, the more reward you should get. The Sniper takes very minimal risk and is getting benefits that you would expect from a class risking A LOT. The other classes have to take huge risks for their rewards, so why is the Sniper exempt from this game mechanic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKing View Post
Great, but several classes don't meet your definition of fair. If you truely want fair let's just make one defensive class and one offensive class or better yet just one class total. There is no such thing as a fair fight between two different classes in FF even if the skill of the players was thrown out - depending on the particular situation one will always be at an advantage.
You're thinking in terms of absolutes again. It comes down to opportunistic balancing. Some classes will have an advantage over other classes in particular situations. The Heavy is a beast at close range. However, that advantage doesn't negate the other player's ability to deal damage at their own maximum. The Sniper has an advantage that negates the enemy's ability to fight back. The Sniper's victim has no opportunity to deal equally scaled damage, no opportunity to use their grenades or own abilities. He completely neutralizes other players, something that no other class does. The advantages of the other classes are very minor advantages compared to Sniper. It isn't about having an advantage. It's about how much it caters to you.

Last edited by Bridget; 02-07-2010 at 04:09 AM.
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Old 02-07-2010, 05:13 AM   #375
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This is not a slippery slope. It is ridiculous to think that just because we remove sniper because it doesnt fit, that it will somehow follow the same exact pattern to any other class. There is no way in hell that we will ever look at demoman and take away his pipetrap, or an engineers gun, or soldiers rocket launcher, or scouts movement ability. These class properties are all unique. The point of the game is to give classes different abilities that are ambiguous if they are better then another persons abilities. Is it easier to dodge rockets or shoot a scout with rockets? Is a sentrygun better then an HW's AC? The answers are unclear.

We all get the fruit argument. Yes, a kiwi is different then an apple. They are still fruits. What does this mean? They have different properties, but amongst all fruit, they retain some super basic principles. I dont know the reason for why fruit are fruit, but it has something to do with them anatomically. Something to do with how it grows or its seeds. It is a basic law that can easily be extended across all fruit. They all have this property. When a player plays a game, properties like: each class has health, each class has a weapon, each class can move, are all basic laws. We are saying that sniper breaks one of these basic laws. Sniper is breaking basic rules of what we believe Fortress Forever is.

I believe that diversity, and many different classes helps FF with the ability to be many different games inside one. An example would be Hunted. That map wouldnt exist without snipers. Sniper would be a tool, like civilian, to help create games. I want to retain that. I dont want Sniper amongst the 8 other classes, blatantly breaking core Fortress-Forever rules, giving people the impression that the game is designed this way.

The sniper shoots from safety. No other class can shoot from safety, without sacrificing TONS of effectiveness. I can shoot you from a hidden location across the map with my shotgun, but it will do 2 damage. When i can only do a sniper 2 damage,( which is a very small % of my potential damage), and sniper can do 100% of his potential damage, he has sacrificed almost nothing to do that. That is a basic law that i believe exists in FF. You have to risk to gain something, and however much you risk, proportionally gives u reward. With sniper, you dont risk, and regardless of risk, u do the same potential damage. Being dealt 2 damage, when i can do 100 damage, is so low of a risk that it doesnt count. You cant say to this point: all classes have some unique overpowered ability. No, we are saying that this is a law, that if it is broken, the class is broken.

We are never going to reduce the game to 1 class. That is a ridiculous slippery slope argument. Nobody is accusing any other class of breaking core FF principles that merits removal of the class. The fact that its the only class being accused like this is proves that problems exist. Im not going to deny that there are problems with spy, and HW, there are. There are problems with nearly ALL classes. That is what this game, and this development team is here for. We are going to, over time and testing, figure out what is wrong and fix it. It just so happens that Sniper is on top of that list. The class is very easy to scrutinize and see why its wrong. Its the attitude of " its not broken dont fix it" has, in my opinion, been a plague on this mod since before 2004. Lines are drawn in the sand over issues, and then nothing gets changed, and the people who are taxed are the people who actually address problems and provide solutions. Their objective is to make the game more fun and balanced for everybody, and that is being squandered by who? People who dont understand things and remain ignorant to problems? Its like 2 people in a room. One says, i smell something, its affecting my breathing. And the other guy saying, "i dont smell anything, it must be your imagination". The guy who smells something stars clutching his stomach and coughing and dying on the floor. "What are you doing, there is nothing wrong, im fine, i feel great." This second guy, refuses to acknowledge that there is a problem. So much so, that he believes he shouldnt do anything, and shouldnt change anything, and in the meantime, his friend is dying. That is the situation that is left when nothing changes. The people who asses that there is some kind of poison in the air, are left dying because of people who are either immune to it, or dont believe that poison can exist.(being immune in this analogy is having some tolerance for things they shouldnt have tolerance for. Like if a player has tolerance for something being broken or unfair. Like being immune to stupid shit. )

If the removal of sniper from all gametypes unless explicitly enabled through lua is truly making you leave FF. Seriously? Sniper is what keeps u playing this game? Good riddance. It sounds callous, but i believe that if Sniper is an issue that determines your fun with this game, you have not been playing FF. The main reason why FF is fun has nothing to do with sniper at all, and i can say that objectively. If you love sniper and think its important and would hate to see it go from ordinary gameplay, you dont know anything about FF.

I assess problems with the class. Other devs do as well. It has been given more then a fair trial. The class is going to change, either through removal from normal play, or drastic revision of the class. So there is no point in arguing to not change it. That ship has sailed. I am extremely confident this will be the only class that undergoes this change. I am also confident that we will add more classes some day. Im confident that sniper can still exist in its current form in maps like Hunter, or other games that may emanate therefrom.

Last edited by Green Mushy; 02-07-2010 at 07:27 AM.
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Old 02-07-2010, 06:05 AM   #376
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People nitpick with the analogy because the definitions are relative to the context they're used in. A botanical fruit may be different than a culinary fruit and they may be all mistaken and used informally. People understand what I mean with that analogy, and they nitpick when they're too intellectually bankrupt to admit it sums up the situation.

TheKing has been arguing against his own straw-man arguments. We say "The Sniper is a problem because he is unique." but we don't stop there. We present arguments that show how, in its case, being unique is a problem. TheKing doesn't get to that point. All he sees is "problem because he is unique" and illogically concludes that any class that is unique is flawed or broken or what have you by default. Sorry, but all of your arguments have been fueled by your misunderstanding, King. Please argue within scope.

Besides, what do you achieve by pointing out that other classes are broken? You seem to think that comparing two broken classes phases out the other. It just makes no logical sense. None whatsoever! If any other class is a problem, then we have one more problem, not one less. Let's argue about the Sniper. Take the other class discussions to a new thread without the sarcastic overtones and childish parody of the last one you made. (People took that thread with a grain of salt because of how you acted, not the argument, just so you know.)
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Old 02-07-2010, 09:56 AM   #377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Born_In_Xixax
Part of the problem I think with DvD is that the only classes that can consistently get past the snipers are med/scout
Well demoman too if he blasts his ass across the map.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKing
The sniper takes risk too.
Shyeah, right. The only real risk a sniper has is another sniper. Past that, the risk is negligible considering the damage he deals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Mushy
So that whole argument that just because sniper has properties that no other class has is completely bunk
Agreed. There's no point in bringing this up. The fact that ANY class can do something unique is a good thing. In the sniper's case, what's in question is how extreme the balance of power is.
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Old 02-07-2010, 10:35 AM   #378
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Unless I read you wrong, you are saying any class would be able to pick up the Sniper rifle.

That's a terrible idea. A spy with a sniper rifle would be horrifically overpowered. The ability to cloak would kill one of the snipers main weaknesses.
not any class. again, it would be determined by Lua. sorry if i oversaw that.

however, i'm sure we could find a way of making this work for all classes, by suppressing features while the sniper rifle is deployed.
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Old 02-07-2010, 04:08 PM   #379
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not any class. again, it would be determined by Lua. sorry if i oversaw that.

however, i'm sure we could find a way of making this work for all classes, by suppressing features while the sniper rifle is deployed.
Now that would work. Hmmmm interesting idea here.





What about the HW Vulcan cannon? Scout with that cannon while conced in the air would be total bad ass. jk
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Old 02-07-2010, 05:26 PM   #380
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has anyone tried letting the population of FF decide?

next patch make the sniper defualt disabled, let the servers enable the sniper if they want. you will see some servers with and some without snipers, see which are more populated over a 1 or 2 month period. this will tell you if the community wants/needs the sniper or if they would just as easily play in a server without one.

Last edited by SSCUJO; 02-07-2010 at 05:26 PM.
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