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Old 02-11-2010, 11:12 PM   #1
immortal
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A review about overpowered Offense over Defense

1. Concussion grenades have no downside. The only downside is fall damage and the dizzy effect (which is kinda useless considering how the Scout and Medic would rather avoid combating front-line defenders when they move toward the flag.) Besides, the fall damage isn't even a problem, as the Medic(s) can throw a med-pack out or tap team-mates with the medkit. That extra fall damage sometimes means one less shotgun blast from the defense.


2. Medic pairing breaks offense, as any damage done to them can easily be reversed with two taps of the medkit or a toss of the medpack from each of them. They can then go at 100% hp capacity toward another defender or even a sentry gun or too. In situations where they can't medkit one another, they can toss medpacks on the floor and pick them up as needed or throw them in each other's general direction. Restrict Medics from healing one another


3. It was mentioned on another thread that jump-pads broke the speed of the game. This is true for offense too. All it takes is a few vital seconds of distraction for a Scout to drop a jump-pad in the enemy base. This gives every team mate increased movement, and the defense can do nothing once it is up. It becomes even more of a problem when the jump-pad has been built on the offense's side of the map, as they get a free ride to the enemy


4. When the offense gains the upper-hand, the defense often has to sacrifice their health through various means (grenade jump, rocket jump, and so on) to get back to their positions. The offense almost always comes into the enemy base with near full health, so they have an even further advantage over the defense.



Basically if you sum it all up:

- virtually no fall damage
- very efficient healing
- high moving speed without concing - for the whole team
- more "offense per minute"
- injured or late well positioned defense
- front-line D lasting less

thanks Bridget for helping.

Last edited by immortal; 02-11-2010 at 11:23 PM.
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Old 02-11-2010, 11:19 PM   #2
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for a fair league play jump pads should be taken off. and medpacks nerfed at least for a bit. let's say only 5hp per medpack and/or only 5 medpacks per medic...
the way they are used now is pretty much a spam.. people drop them everywhere.

A few ideas showed up on irc by Bridget and robust. One of them is to make a "hardmode" for FF. where you can, via server configuration, enable or disable things like jump pads, sentry detecting and turning speed, medpacks power, number of medpacks per medic.

so even if FF remain a noob friendly game, we could still have a "hardmode" for competing.
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Old 02-11-2010, 11:33 PM   #3
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how can you say virtually no fall damage when you can lose 40 HP just from falling from the battlements on a map like schrape. If anything the fall damage is too much and seemingly very inconsistent.

medpacks were also way better when they could heal you past 100%

truth!

Last edited by killu; 02-11-2010 at 11:34 PM.
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Old 02-11-2010, 11:45 PM   #4
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He means it gets easily healed.
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Old 02-11-2010, 11:49 PM   #5
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Any good defensive set up can stop an offense much easier now.
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Old 02-11-2010, 11:50 PM   #6
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About no downside for offensive classes using movement: that is the entire reason that they are offensive classes. If there was a downside, then it'd be far better to use stronger classes. On the flipside, if there was no downside for a soldier RJing, then a soldier would be the best offensive class hands down.
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Old 02-12-2010, 12:08 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squeek. View Post
About no downside for offensive classes using movement: that is the entire reason that they are offensive classes. If there was a downside, then it'd be far better to use stronger classes. On the flipside, if there was no downside for a soldier RJing, then a soldier would be the best offensive class hands down.
I'm not saying it should have a downside for Offensive classes nor upsides for Defensive classes, I'm just saying there is too much upsides for offensive classes now.

I'm not talking about more fall damage, or increasing rocket/sentry/pipe/Mini-gun damage.
In TFC, without jump pads, were soldiers a better choice than scouts and medics?
No, Offensive soldiers were only used by a few clans on maps like stowaway and 2fort

Quote:
Originally Posted by killu View Post
how can you say virtually no fall damage when you can lose 40 HP just from falling from the battlements on a map like schrape. If anything the fall damage is too much and seemingly very inconsistent.

medpacks were also way better when they could heal you past 100%

truth!
If you fall from the battlements on schrape you lose only 18HP, not even close to 40HP. And you choose to fall... you can use the ladders =)

you are talking about one map specifically, i'm talking about the whole game.

And i say virtually no fall damage because medics usually drop medpacks as soon as they hit the ground after concing so the next medic coming can use'em to heal from the fall


Quote:
Originally Posted by vatterin View Post
Any good defensive set up can stop an offense much easier now.
Sorry, but i have to disagree. On FF you see teams capping more flags in 15 minutes than it was used to be capped on TFC in 30 minutes rounds

Last edited by immortal; 02-16-2010 at 04:35 PM.
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Old 02-12-2010, 03:29 AM   #8
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Good thing this is TFC.
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Old 02-12-2010, 05:11 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by immortal View Post
1. Concussion grenades have no downside. The only downside is fall damage and the dizzy effect (which is kinda useless considering how the Scout and Medic would rather avoid combating front-line defenders when they move toward the flag.) Besides, the fall damage isn't even a problem, as the Medic(s) can throw a med-pack out or tap team-mates with the medkit. That extra fall damage sometimes means one less shotgun blast from the defense.


2. Medic pairing breaks offense, as any damage done to them can easily be reversed with two taps of the medkit or a toss of the medpack from each of them. They can then go at 100% hp capacity toward another defender or even a sentry gun or too. In situations where they can't medkit one another, they can toss medpacks on the floor and pick them up as needed or throw them in each other's general direction. Restrict Medics from healing one another


3. It was mentioned on another thread that jump-pads broke the speed of the game. This is true for offense too. All it takes is a few vital seconds of distraction for a Scout to drop a jump-pad in the enemy base. This gives every team mate increased movement, and the defense can do nothing once it is up. It becomes even more of a problem when the jump-pad has been built on the offense's side of the map, as they get a free ride to the enemy


4. When the offense gains the upper-hand, the defense often has to sacrifice their health through various means (grenade jump, rocket jump, and so on) to get back to their positions. The offense almost always comes into the enemy base with near full health, so they have an even further advantage over the defense.



Basically if you sum it all up:

- virtually no fall damage
- very efficient healing
- high moving speed without concing - for the whole team
- more "offense per minute"
- injured or late well positioned defense
- front-line D lasting less

thanks Bridget for helping.

lmao, really?!

Overpowered offense?.. You can't be serious.. You get a shit load of benefits.

1) You spawn in your own base. You don't have to travel across a map to do anything.

2) You're closer to unlimited amounts of health then any medic could supply for his team.

3) Defensive classes such as the soldier can easily take any offensive class if they follow defensive guidelines, which is easy as hell.

The only way a defense is going to get overpowered is if you brought in like 3 soldiers and a scout. Then it would be fucking ridiculous. Other then that, the offense is fine. The defense always have the upper hand simply because they don't have as big an objective. They can solemnly focus on killing. Duh.

There is no problem with the offense. Everything is how it should be.
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Old 02-12-2010, 05:32 AM   #10
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The extra movement speed should really be emphasized even though it's just one item, it makes a huge difference. In addition to offense boosts, defense has a few losses:

-SG's don't have as much stopping power as TFC. Less push and less damage per second.

-SG's don't offer splash protection to the engineer, making it harder to keep them repaired because it's much easier to get blown back.

-HWguy damage overall feels weaker than TFC. I see more units run past me than I would have in TFC.


Also a couple more offense boosts:

-Pyro now a viable offense class in some maps, has superb vertical manueverability

-Spies have total cloaking now, though this isn't a big deal for most offense situations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eomoyaff
The only way a defense is going to get overpowered is if you brought in like 3 soldiers and a scout. Then it would be fucking ridiculous. Other then that, the offense is fine. The defense always have the upper hand simply because they don't have as big an objective. They can solemnly focus on killing. Duh.

There is no problem with the offense. Everything is how it should be.
Somebody doesn't play much AvD...
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Old 02-12-2010, 08:07 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chilledsanity View Post
The extra movement speed should really be emphasized even though it's just one item, it makes a huge difference. In addition to offense boosts, defense has a few losses:

-SG's don't have as much stopping power as TFC. Less push and less damage per second.

-SG's don't offer splash protection to the engineer, making it harder to keep them repaired because it's much easier to get blown back.

-HWguy damage overall feels weaker than TFC. I see more units run past me than I would have in TFC.


Also a couple more offense boosts:

-Pyro now a viable offense class in some maps, has superb vertical manueverability

-Spies have total cloaking now, though this isn't a big deal for most offense situations.

Somebody doesn't play much AvD...
Actually I do. The defense is fine. Just accept the fact that some maps are more offensively oriented then others. It's a sheer lack of skill and knowledge as to how to properly defend it.

I'm also going to take that as a sign of disrespect. It was uncalled for and I frown upon your petty remark. "Somebody doesn't play much AvD..." Please, It's as though I invented that shit, I play it so much. So do me a favor and step off my nutz, and stop assuming shit that will only make you look more illogical then what you really are, ye? kkthnx
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Old 02-12-2010, 09:12 AM   #12
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Interesting idea: what if certain weapons were buffed to deal slightly more damage to a player depending on how fast they are moving?

Like say change the RPG from a straight 102 damage to dealing 80-125 damage depending on speed of your target. Would also balance out the fact that it's stupidly easy to kill a slow target with the RPG while very difficult to kill a concing scout that is literally outrunning your rocket.

Assault Cannon and detpipes could be changed in a similar way.

Last edited by VentuSag3; 02-12-2010 at 09:13 AM.
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Old 02-12-2010, 09:19 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vatterin View Post
Good thing this is TFC.
our players base is almost entirely from TFC
with which game should i compare FF if not TFC?


Quote:
Originally Posted by VentuSag3 View Post
Interesting idea: what if certain weapons were buffed to deal slightly more damage to a player depending on how fast they are moving?

Like say change the RPG from a straight 102 damage to dealing 80-125 damage depending on speed of your target. Would also balance out the fact that it's stupidly easy to kill a slow target with the RPG while very difficult to kill a concing scout that is literally outrunning your rocket.

Assault Cannon and detpipes could be changed in a similar way.

I can see this working on SGs only. Having this feature on any other weapon would make game unbalanced imo.


Quote:
Originally Posted by eomoyaff View Post
lmao, really?!

Overpowered offense?.. You can't be serious.. You get a shit load of benefits.

1) You spawn in your own base. You don't have to travel across a map to do anything.

2) You're closer to unlimited amounts of health then any medic could supply for his team.

3) Defensive classes such as the soldier can easily take any offensive class if they follow defensive guidelines, which is easy as hell.

The only way a defense is going to get overpowered is if you brought in like 3 soldiers and a scout. Then it would be fucking ridiculous. Other then that, the offense is fine. The defense always have the upper hand simply because they don't have as big an objective. They can solemnly focus on killing. Duh.

There is no problem with the offense. Everything is how it should be.
1) Yes, D spawn on its own base. Yet you forget to say that EVERY re-spawn for D has been nerfed. on TFC you usually spawn randomly, on FF Defense always re-spawn on the worse/far spawn. Want some examples?

TFC destroy: 2 spawns, Offense spawn on Front Door, D spawn on Mid Ramp.
FF destroy: 1 spawn FD, 1 resupply mid ramp.

TFC 2fort: 2 spawns, random spawning.
FF 2fort: 2 spawns, Defense spawn on the battlement

TFC shutdown2: 2 spawns, random spawning.
FF shutdown2: 1 spawn bottom, 1 resupply Top Ramp.

TFC monkey: 2 spawns, random spawning.
FF monkey: 2 spawns, Defense always spawn on the lower spawn.

2) Yes and No. Yes, you are closer, but you can't afford getting out of your position to run for HP/Armor, die fighting is the best way.
No, not the entire teams is close enough to a resupply. A medic can drop enough med packs for healing 2/3 other players.

3) On an 1v1 situation this is true. But when you have to deal with 2 full medics after rocket jumping from the re-spawn to get in your position faster this is false.



So, after this, you cannot say that Offense is not faster and Defense is not slower/nerfed on FF. Speed is a great advantage on this game. So yes, Offense is overpowered. FF Offense makes 10%~15% more runs in the same amount of time than in TFC.
Otherwise how could a team capture more flags in 15 minutes than it would cap on TFC in a 30 minutes round?


btw, it's funny when you say:

"Defensive classes such as the soldier can easily take any offensive class if they follow defensive guidelines, which is easy as hell."

because you, as soldier, can't easily take care of a scout or a medic. Yet you said following defensive guidelines is easy as hell...
Sounds like a contradiction to me. like when someone just go against an idea because he have a personal grudge against the one who had the idea... but i might be wrong. i hope so.

Last edited by immortal; 02-12-2010 at 09:35 AM.
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Old 02-12-2010, 10:35 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eomoyaff View Post
Actually I do. The defense is fine. Just accept the fact that some maps are more offensively oriented then others. It's a sheer lack of skill and knowledge as to how to properly defend it.

I'm also going to take that as a sign of disrespect. It was uncalled for and I frown upon your petty remark. "Somebody doesn't play much AvD..." Please, It's as though I invented that shit, I play it so much. So do me a favor and step off my nutz, and stop assuming shit that will only make you look more illogical then what you really are, ye? kkthnx
My intention wasn't to offend, but your statement struck me as incredibly obtuse. I wasn't sure if you were beyond reason or not, hence I didn't want to explain it if you weren't.

As someone who's played hundreds of AvD games in FF I've seen the balance turn to shit. Dustbowl games that used to be down to the wire can consistently be done in 10 minutes. Cornfield rounds are over in 3-5 minutes. Ksour flies by. Avanti is a joke compared to TFC defense. And yes, there are always exceptions, but I'm looking at this over the course of time, the AVERAGES that go down. Games like dustbowl are the easiest to measure because if O wins 90% of the time, guess what, that's not balanced. It's not just that map, it's just an indicator of a larger problem. Saying maps are offense oriented doesn't mean anything when they used to work, but then the rules got changed. Granted, not every single AvD map is screwed. Basicbowl has always had crippled offense (largely in response to 2.0+ changes). The bottom half of anticitizen presents a challenge for O. Vertigo is overwhelmingly D friendly. Palermo in its current state isn't bad. Beyond that, the rest with a competent team are over in a fraction of the time they used to be.

Let's say you disagree with everything I'm saying. Fine. Let's test your own logic. You think things are currently balanced as they are. Does this mean you think TFC was unbalanced? FF in its current state has probably a dozen offense advantages over TFC. Some minor, some huge. Defense has gotten fuck all. So if you think this is balanced, logic would dictate that you think TFC was unbalanced because it had more D advantages. If so, I appreciate your consistency. If not, I think you're either delusional or unobservant as to the changes in AvD that have occurred in FF. I prefer the longer games and gradual pushes that TFC offered as opposed to the capfest that's so common in FF. You may prefer the quicker games and this is a simple difference of opinion.
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Old 02-12-2010, 10:56 AM   #15
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I have been playing a bit of Team Fortress Classic lately. Now, I am not saying that TFC should be the guideline for FF. I'm merely telling you that one game with about the same details does defense good, so what's the problem here? Here's some things I've noticed:
  1. For whatever reason, I can actually play Engineer in TFC and at-least get a few kills before my gun gets taken down. In Fortress Forever, I remember my gun taking down maybe a lone Scout before getting destroyed. I'm not sure what it is. The Push on the Sentry Gun in TFC is great. Anyone dumb enough to walk out in-front of my gun gets shot toward my D or pinned to a wall. In FF, you can practically walk up to the sentry gun with a primed grenade and hug it.
  2. Heavy Weapons Guys in TFC are no joke, as chilled point out. In FF, they didn't rage me, but I get so mad when I see one coming my way in TFC. I don't think it's overpowered or broken, it just does good, which is expected. The reason why I get owned is because I try to stay in close range. Heavies in TFC own others in class range. In Fortress Forever, the Heavy is pathetic. Even at close range, his gun isn't going to immediately bring people down. It feels like an eternity.
  3. Juggling in TFC feels more intuitive and influential. I can't remember how well the rocket push worked in FF, but when I want to throw my opponent off course or throw him into a wall to land my next shot in TFC, I can intuitively do it and it works well. In FF, all I remember is my rocket launcher splashing people and stopping them in place. They usually recovered by the time I got another shot off.

Now, Fortress Forever has some great advantages for the offense here. Jump pads give every class the ability to concussion jump to a degree. You can't break them down once they're up. They allow heavier offensive classes (which should move slow considering the advantage they give O in the D base.) to move to the defending base quickly.

The defense can handle a wave or two of weak classes then some strong classes, but not when each wave sees some heavy classes like Soldier or Heavy or Demoman. It's even more of a problem considering how there's NO DELAY between jumps. An entire team can one after one propel themselves across the yard and land at the front of the defense's base.

That's a problem. I can understand saying "The movement oriented classes usually sacrifice combat effectiveness for their movement. It's balanced" but what can you say to the movement skills given to heavier classes? The Soldier no longer has to sacrifice his health to get across the yard 'cause the Scout's got him covered. The Demoman doesn't need some pipes, Scout's got him covered. Heavy isn't forced to walk all of the way for his (in principle, doesn't work that way in FF) huge advantage.

If you get more than one Scout, you can chain jump pads together. The increased heavy offense this provides usually compensates for the lack of a Medic or what have you. Yes, the offense has to traverse an entire map, but the distance is not the problem, it's the fact that they do it freely (the heavy offense) where the defense has to sacrifice their health to get to their position to make up for the increased O.
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Old 02-12-2010, 05:07 PM   #16
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I haven't played FF long enough to observe the changes over time, but I can appreciate that AvD defense has gotten harder, and AvD map turns have grown too short. That seems to jive with my observations - there seem to be very few extended holds at all in the AvD maps that come up on pubs now.

It seems the jump pad is frequently singled out as a problem with this, and I've commented elsewhere that I tend to agree, and offered suggestions for toning it down (delay between jumps, destroyable.) TBH I feel that the venerable teleporter is a more flexible and interesting variation on the concept.

As far as overall class capabilities/balance vs. broken maps, I would suggest that it is more appropriate to modify the maps, assuming the class balance is working well. Tweaking class capabilities and strengths to workaround limitations in 'traditional' maps seems wrong. I think there are several easy things that can be done to tweak AvD maps in one direction or the other without messing with the map architecture itself: move respawn points, increase resupply bags/rage/nades, adjust flag return times, etc.
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Old 02-12-2010, 08:57 PM   #17
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Bridget: I'm in total agreement on your assessment after checking out TFC again. I can answer why the sg stays alive longer in TFC:

-more sg push

-offense units are slower, so there's more exposure time

-better tracking (in some ways, this is a complex issue how it works in FF)

-I believe more damage is dealt (haven't confirmed in a while)

-Sg's block splash damage, so an engineer can stand behind his sg and bang away, keep it up under fire. In FF you not only take damage, but you get knocked back, preventing you from being close enough to repair it.

-No sabotage risk (though this isn't an issue for the attentive anyway)


What's ironic is that in TFC, sentries can be damaged VERY fast. Two rockets will take out a lvl. 3 sentry. A medic/scout can bring an unattended sg down in seconds. But the items above all add up to a maintained sg being able to hold its own in a way that is impossible in FF.


Born_In_Xixax: While it's definitely an offender, it's not JUST the jump pad, it's several factors. For example, Avanti is one map where the jump pad doesn't do wonders for offense, but the holds are often very brief.

I would agree about you changing the maps, except that I don't consider the classes balanced. It still stands that over time offense has received many new abilities and defense has received almost none. This very thread seemed to start off focused on balance for CTF, not AvD, suggesting that this is a problem across the board.

Last edited by chilledsanity; 02-12-2010 at 09:08 PM.
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Old 02-13-2010, 12:59 AM   #18
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Quote:
1) Yes, D spawn on its own base. Yet you forget to say that EVERY re-spawn for D has been nerfed. on TFC you usually spawn randomly, on FF Defense always re-spawn on the worse/far spawn. Want some examples?

TFC destroy: 2 spawns, Offense spawn on Front Door, D spawn on Mid Ramp.
FF destroy: 1 spawn FD, 1 resupply mid ramp.

TFC 2fort: 2 spawns, random spawning.
FF 2fort: 2 spawns, Defense spawn on the battlement

TFC shutdown2: 2 spawns, random spawning.
FF shutdown2: 1 spawn bottom, 1 resupply Top Ramp.

TFC monkey: 2 spawns, random spawning.
FF monkey: 2 spawns, Defense always spawn on the lower spawn.

2) Yes and No. Yes, you are closer, but you can't afford getting out of your position to run for HP/Armor, die fighting is the best way.
No, not the entire teams is close enough to a resupply. A medic can drop enough med packs for healing 2/3 other players.

3) On an 1v1 situation this is true. But when you have to deal with 2 full medics after rocket jumping from the re-spawn to get in your position faster this is false.



So, after this, you cannot say that Offense is not faster and Defense is not slower/nerfed on FF. Speed is a great advantage on this game. So yes, Offense is overpowered. FF Offense makes 10%~15% more runs in the same amount of time than in TFC.
Otherwise how could a team capture more flags in 15 minutes than it would cap on TFC in a 30 minutes round?


btw, it's funny when you say:

"Defensive classes such as the soldier can easily take any offensive class if they follow defensive guidelines, which is easy as hell."

because you, as soldier, can't easily take care of a scout or a medic. Yet you said following defensive guidelines is easy as hell...
Sounds like a contradiction to me. like when someone just go against an idea because he have a personal grudge against the one who had the idea... but i might be wrong. i hope so.
Do you really want to go personal with this? I can hold a defensive position just fine, and in fact, I can communicate TWICE as well as you Immortal. This isn't even about personal grudges. I stated my opinion. So quit assuming shit.

As for your examples:

FF_Destroy - Defense comes out of the of the front spawn. A soldier can get in position at the button quicker then a scout can reach it. You should know that. Also, There is a grenade bag by the button that actually gives you health and armor back as well. You can survive a shit load of offenders at button.

FF_2fort - It's actually a random spawn. I've spawned in both. Also, Soldier guarding ele has a respawn REALLY close to him. Solly guarding ramp has a bag mid ramp in which he gets hp and armor back.

FF_Shutdown2 - Has random spawning as well. Also when soldier guarding top ramp he's RIGHT BESIDE THE RESPAWN. Insta hp. He can last FOREVER.

FF_Monkey - Random spawns as well. I've spawned at both on defense. Also Soldier guarding T has a respawn RIGHT BESIDE HIM.

A defense can hold just fine with a good front man. All these positions above can be well defended against any offense. And as long as you can communicate without hesitation, you're defense is golden. And when I say "You're" I mean you alone.

Also this game IS faster. I doubt they wanted to make this game JUST LIKE TFC. All Fortress games are different. But I'm telling you, The defense is fine. It's only the players skill that would determine how well the defense does against the opposing side.

And on a last note, you've never seen me play soldier on any of those maps competitively. And although I admit that you are a better soldier then me (simply because I rarely play soldier), That doesn't mean I don't know how to use one properly. So maybe you should just step off a bit. You know, turn around like you did on my clan.. You seem to be good at that..
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Old 02-13-2010, 01:12 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chilledsanity View Post
My intention wasn't to offend, but your statement struck me as incredibly obtuse. I wasn't sure if you were beyond reason or not, hence I didn't want to explain it if you weren't.

As someone who's played hundreds of AvD games in FF I've seen the balance turn to shit. Dustbowl games that used to be down to the wire can consistently be done in 10 minutes. Cornfield rounds are over in 3-5 minutes. Ksour flies by. Avanti is a joke compared to TFC defense. And yes, there are always exceptions, but I'm looking at this over the course of time, the AVERAGES that go down. Games like dustbowl are the easiest to measure because if O wins 90% of the time, guess what, that's not balanced. It's not just that map, it's just an indicator of a larger problem. Saying maps are offense oriented doesn't mean anything when they used to work, but then the rules got changed. Granted, not every single AvD map is screwed. Basicbowl has always had crippled offense (largely in response to 2.0+ changes). The bottom half of anticitizen presents a challenge for O. Vertigo is overwhelmingly D friendly. Palermo in its current state isn't bad. Beyond that, the rest with a competent team are over in a fraction of the time they used to be.

Let's say you disagree with everything I'm saying. Fine. Let's test your own logic. You think things are currently balanced as they are. Does this mean you think TFC was unbalanced? FF in its current state has probably a dozen offense advantages over TFC. Some minor, some huge. Defense has gotten fuck all. So if you think this is balanced, logic would dictate that you think TFC was unbalanced because it had more D advantages. If so, I appreciate your consistency. If not, I think you're either delusional or unobservant as to the changes in AvD that have occurred in FF. I prefer the longer games and gradual pushes that TFC offered as opposed to the capfest that's so common in FF. You may prefer the quicker games and this is a simple difference of opinion.

Ah ok, I'm sorry then for remarks.

As for what you just put up above. The point is that this game isn't TFC. It's intentionally faster. But I have seen nearly as many games held on Dustbowl as I've seen won by the offense. It just depends on who's playing on what side. I believe the balance of the game comes more with the skill of the players during that game. No one here can really say if it is or isn't balanced because there is no real way to prove that. But Technically speaking, we could find out. Lets just get a group of 20 people who have never played this game, nor heard about any fortress game, and put them in dustbowl. The only knowledge we'd give them about the game would be to show all of them the wiki. Let's say they read through it and hop in the game. With a basic logically explination of the game in their minds, who do you think would win? It's still hard to say. My vote would be the defense because objectively, all they have to do is kill.

But this is just based off theory over a single map. We don't know what would really happen. And again, we don't know how balanced the game is. It all depends on the players who are playing. Their skill will determine the direction of the game.
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Old 02-13-2010, 06:26 AM   #20
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ok, so about the spawnings, i must be the most unlucky player on the whole galaxy because i always spawn on the most far for D. Or maybe you are talking about past versions of FF where spawnings were random on those maps.
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