Should FF evolve or stick to TFC

[fireb0rn]

Originally Posted by SoBe Green

The funny part about this would be:

TF - Original TF not at all like TFC.
TFC - TF remake not at all like TF except for classes.
TF2 - Created by the same guys that made TF and TFC. Not at all like TF or TFC except for classes.

FF - not at all like TF, more like TFC, not just like TFC.

A four year old could tell you that this "TF Recipe" doesn't exist. Every TF game has not been a clone of the past TF game. TF2 is no less a TF game than TFC was. FF is no more a TF game than TFC was.

Someone get this imprinted on a bat and I'll beat people until they have some common sense.

TF2 is very much more different from TF than TFC was.

-removal of grenades
-radical change in character movement speed (bunnyhopping)
-CP gameplay (different maps)
-invincibility, critical hits
-medic as a healer

anyways, we can't split up the game. essentially halving the number of people playing at any time is very unlikely to help the mod grow. it would probably just force people to play one mode which is more popular and the people who refuse to would just quit.

[SoBe Green]

Originally Posted by bokko

I'm not sure what you mean by 'TF recipe' as that implies some pre-defined formula, this is more of a quesion about staying true to the gameplay seen in TF and TFC.

TF, TFC and FF are all very similar - fast paced, full of advanced movement tecniques.

TF2 is in its own league with respawn delays, Command Point exclusive gameplay, forcing of people to work together.

More can be said, there's no simple way of defining what is in line with the classic TF gameplay and what is not. What is apparent is that TF2 is moving in an entirely new direction that strays off from previous incarnations. Now, what sensible people realise is that should FF ever take the same path as TF2 it would lose its greatness. The classic gameplay would be lost forever and we would see a washed out TF2 clone that pales in comparison and that has no originality.

I must point out you are saying cloning TF2 or being similiar to TF2 would lack "originality" but if you clone TF or TFC (and its been done many times) somehow you become more original...yea...

TF2 was going to be different than TFC and TF. TF2 was NEVER going to be like TFC. Never was TF2 supposed to be like TF. Through all the years of development one thing remained constant: TF2 was going to be very different.

TFC was an improvement to TF but also very different. TFC had many game modes yet very few of them were played as often as AvD, CTF, and "Control Point" maps. To this day those "unique" game modes you speak of have very little players on TFC servers against those running the above mentioned game modes. TF2 has those same above mentioned game modes so I'm not sure how it is missing the basic core game modes TFC had.

This is a problem with FF. FF doesn't have to be like TF2 but it needs to focus on one gameplay mode at a time. The FF team did great on a lot of the maps but what happened was all the maps were so different and unique it just thinned out the players. You get admins that don't run some maps and some admins that only run certain maps. The result is players flocking to a select few servers. At release FF should have had the more popular default maps people were familiar with. Instead we got mostly remade maps that were only ran in leagues or rarely ran in pubs on TFC. The result was most of the maps not being too pub friendly. FF came out as a game for the league players and the people who like to spam rockets and grenades. The people who are enjoying games that focus more on teamwork and actual ability to aim were turned off by that. The end result was a little league play and even less pub play. Its right in our faces. That is an undeniable fact.

FF is improving. The road to success is far away but it is reachable.

[Sh4x]

I'd like to see FF evolve into a completely new game with a refreshing gameplay but I doubt that will ever happen and it'll always be TFC+minorchanges+bettergraphics as far as I can tell. TFC gameplay is pretty much dead if you ask me. It's never going to become popular again, just look at the trend. Simpler games are what the general public is looking for. TFC and FF aren't simple at all and the vets will do anything to fuck it up for new people sometimes even without realizing it, sad but true.

The days of bunny hopping are over, that seems pretty clear to me. Enabling bhopping in a game today is like shooting the game in the foot. Nobody likes to bhop except the vets who are used to it already.

[DarkieJ]

Im not that good at all but if someone kill me every time i dont quit playing it thats b/c i like the game.

If i was newb to this game there where other newbs also so enough to kill.
Its just because allot people dont even hearth about it..

Here we got a Lan centre, Everyone play quake, nfs, tf2, halo, gears of war, battlefield, untreal tournament, Couterstrike. and alot other games dunno

But when i talk about FF they are intrested but dont even know what im talking about. Its not even installed!
A few has and they like it but because there are not alot players they dont even will try to keep play it or to play it in the centre.

[DarkieJ]

oh and what i want is FF like it is now with the tfc flora.
But with new addons not neotf like, But just cool stuff like weapon updates and map changes

[chilledsanity]

Sobe Green: You really summed it all up in that last post. I can't help but think that some people who walk away not liking FF would change their minds completely if only they tried a different map. Aardvark is different from Hunted as it is from dustbowl and it is from murderball.

[levtastic]

I rarely say anything about the game.

This game is way easier than TFC. you don't have to crouch to rampslide- you have a basic jump;wait _special whatever you want built into it. The hitboxes/aiming is way easier. The gameplay is essentially the same.

easy version of TFC imo.

There aren't any pubs that are worth a damn. eO whatever the fuck, they're pubbers. They can't show you shit beyond being a pubber (elitism)


I remember playing TFC and going to pubs; clan pubs mind you- getting torn the fuck up. Seeing people concing and rjing, double concs etc. being like how the fuck do you even air strafe or bhop let alone. FF is ez mode compared to TFC.

desktop gaming community is getting smaller; fact!

this game needs serious media attention. Tournament prizes. Cashflow. incentive to play.

The competition in this game sucks.

bobbylight

[TheWetMule]

Originally Posted by levtastic

I rarely say anything about the game.

This game is way easier than TFC. you don't have to crouch to rampslide- you have a basic jump;wait _special whatever you want built into it. The hitboxes/aiming is way easier. The gameplay is essentially the same.

easy version of TFC imo.

There aren't any pubs that are worth a damn. eO whatever the fuck, they're pubbers. They can't show you shit beyond being a pubber (elitism)


I remember playing TFC and going to pubs; clan pubs mind you- getting torn the fuck up. Seeing people concing and rjing, double concs etc. being like how the fuck do you even air strafe or bhop let alone. FF is ez mode compared to TFC.

desktop gaming community is getting smaller; fact!

this game needs serious media attention. Tournament prizes. Cashflow. incentive to play.

The competition in this game sucks.

bobbylight

Okay, lets do cash prizes, you can put all the money in.

[bokko]

Originally Posted by SoBe Green

I must point out you are saying cloning TF2 or being similiar to TF2 would lack "originality" but if you clone TF or TFC (and its been done many times) somehow you become more original...yea...

Then let me clarify, FF is a revival of a game series that has since long been abandoned by its developpers. Bringing it to a new modern engine and improving on it is much more original than trying to copy the currently active TF2. This also ties in with what so many can't seem to realise, there is already a perfectly functioning game in TF2 that is steadily being improved upon, why do you want to recreate it?

As for game modes, I would argue that the only game modes that are actually enjoyable in TF2 are variations of Command Point game play. TFC and TF were a lot more diverse back when they were active, and FF has unlimited possibilities with LUA. Diversity and depth is something positive, and what's more it distinguishes this mod from TF2.

Your claim of FF being released with bias towards clanners, I'm sure I've heard you say this before, is completely false. Let's have a look at the map list of the initial release.

7 maps well known public maps: crossover, well, push, cornfield, dustbowl, canalzon2, hunted
5 maps generally associated with the clan scene: monkey, sd2, 2morfort, aardvark, mulch_dm
And those clan maps are not even exclusive for clan play, sd2 was one of the more popular public maps on release, 2morfort rarely played at all in tfc, so you cannot claim this mod was aimed for just clanners by looking at that list.

Saying that they should've had 'better maps' at the release date is such an ignorant remark, these guys guys worked hard enough just to get the game out. It's not as easy as demanding a map be done, you need someone willing to do it and what's more someone who actually finishes the map. I see far too many comments such as these, telling them they should have made a better game, it's not helping anyone.

Originally Posted by SoBe Green

FF came out as a game for the league players and the people who like to spam rockets and grenades. The people who are enjoying games that focus more on teamwork and actual ability to aim were turned off by that. The end result was a little league play and even less pub play. Its right in our faces. That is an undeniable fact.

Ridiculous. This is what has earned you a reputation of being a valve fanboy. This is on par with people saying TF2 is a game made for people who are shit at online games and want to feel good about themselves, a game were noobs beat skilled players by default.

[SoBe Green]

FF was made mostly by old school TFC clanners and mappers. In return it showed pretty heavily. The maps are great I even said so. I never said they weren't great. I said the maps at release should have been different and then progressed to a list like we have. FF should have stuck to the official TFC map list. It is after all supposed to be like TFC. What you would have ended up with is people playing FF then going back to TFC and saying "Oh now I get it!". People do this with TF2 also. Its fun to play the new version of things and then go back and see the old. But most of the remakes of the official TFC maps had drastic changes in them that pretty much changed the entire game play of the map yet the old custom clan map remakes stayed the same across the entire board which in return shows what I already said. Here how about a negative thing about TF2. TF2 made this mistake with well. well is probably one of the most played TFC maps in pubs. Valve took well and said "Here is well but its something new!". The result being people don't associate TF2 well with the TFC well and few enjoy playing it for long periods of time. Regardless of the game people enjoy nostalgia and they like spoonfuls of it.

Look at how often half of those maps are played. I never once said those maps were bad maps I said they don't play so well in pubs. If I had time I'd love to get in on some of the pickup games just to enjoy the maps more but I rarely have time to even pub these days. The point is most of the maps for FF are far more enjoyable in a clan/match setting.

[Peon]

Anyone who cannot see that FF is an evolved version of TF, is clearly blind. Sure it's a lot like a modified TFC with better graphics, but it is different. Not to mention every other version of TF (Q3F, ETF, UTF, etc.) was changed, or evolved in some way. Of course, there are many similarities between them, but that's only because that style of game has proven itself to be so much fun, balanced, and competetive.

I've said before it's a tried and true cyber sport, kind of like a real sport. Many changes have been made to all of the individual mainstream sports over the years, but the basic mechanics of them have reamained the same. A radical change to those gameplay mechanics would result in a completely different game. FF in this way is a slightly modified version of the same sport it has always been.....it's just a different league. Many will argue that TF2 has changed the sport too much, in the wrong direction.

FF is evolved TF, and makes many fans of previous TF games very happy, for the most part. If you want some more evolution, I suggest posting something in the "Ideas and Suggestions" section. If you want a different game.....go play a different game.

[SoBe Green]

Not to rain on your parade Peon (and I appreciate that me you and bokko have so far argued without being the dumb idiots we sometimes are) but those many fans haven't quite shown up to play.

FF is TF evolved but it has more to go before it can be considered ok to be just left alone. FF as is will not gain more popularity.

We can talk all we want (thats why the forums are here) and none of us can make this game progress. If anything this talking is nothing but a way of passing time.

[puppychow]

I vote to add the redeemer in from UT.

Actually, as a blow off time exercise, would be fun to think of all the weapons ever available from doom, quake, UT, and fortress mods and assign them all to exsisting FF/TFC chars.

[chilledsanity]

Your claim of FF being released with bias towards clanners, I'm sure I've heard you say this before, is completely false. Let's have a look at the map list of the initial release.

I think the bias has been showing after release personally. Upon release it looked very pub-friendly. For example there are multiple bugged spots in dustbowl that haven't been fixed since the release of 1.0. Cornfield seems broken in 2.0 with the speed additions and the addition of jump pads. A sweeping LUA change in 2.0 made it so engineers don't have enough metal to build an SG after spawning in dustbowl. I'm probably biased, but I feel like clan/CTF play has been the focus off almost all the changes since 1.0.

[bokko]

I agree that some of the classic maps were perhaps altered a bit too much, crossover is kind of dull without the midmap bridge for example, but I don't think it had a huge impact on the mod's popularity.

In a way CTF play was being prioritised (not clan play though) after release, I think a lot of the developpers who were active in AvD scene moved on pretty quickly after the first release. It seems as if it's mostly CTF players left at the head of this mod so that's what they tried to fix first. Well shit, I don't know to be fair, the only original developpers left seem to be the trepids? I don't think they've ever prioritised clanners, work is still being done to the training mode etc, AFAIK.

[Dr.Satan]

Originally Posted by SoBe Green

We can talk all we want (thats why the forums are here) and none of us can make this game progress. If anything this talking is nothing but a way of passing time.

Your input is always helpful. Generally the beta's let you all argue back and forth and we pipe up whenever and then once a good idea presents itself we copy it over to the beta forums and start talking about it more. Don't think what you say falls on deaf ears (blind eyes?)

[Rutabeggar]

Originally Posted by bokko

In a way CTF play was being prioritised (not clan play though) after release, I think a lot of the developpers who were active in AvD scene moved on pretty quickly after the first release. It seems as if it's mostly CTF players left at the head of this mod so that's what they tried to fix first. Well shit, I don't know to be fair, the only original developpers left seem to be the trepids? I don't think they've ever prioritised clanners, work is still being done to the training mode etc, AFAIK.

I agree completely with this. We still have a broken dustbowl map, the basis for A/D leagues and maps is dustbowl, always has been. Maps like avanti, ksour, warpath, should have been ported immediately. AFAIK we have Cornfield, Dustbowl(broken), and Palermo...hardly a basis for A/D players.

[levtastic]

Originally Posted by TheWetMule

Okay, lets do cash prizes, you can put all the money in.

alright smart ass.

you're missing the point just to be an asshole.

[Dr.Satan]

Dustbowl is fixed for 2.1...if your referring to the shooting through the grates. Not sure what else you could be talking about.

[SoBe Green]

Originally Posted by Dr.Satan

Your input is always helpful. Generally the beta's let you all argue back and forth and we pipe up whenever and then once a good idea presents itself we copy it over to the beta forums and start talking about it more. Don't think what you say falls on deaf ears (blind eyes?)

Just be sure to mark this date as the day that Sobe and bokko agreed on something. We'll celebrate it next year with cake and tequila.