The Sad State of Pubs

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by Sh4x

Obviously the gameplay lacks in todays market. It was the best thing a couple years ago, but games evolve and the gamers change too. What was hot yesterday can be outdated tomorrow and better graphics won't always save the day.

It could be argued that the gameplay is too advanced for today's market. Games are devolving in my opinion.

Back to the topic,

What would pubbers like to play? Any public-only players want to offer opinions?

[Skanky Butterpuss]

the most fun ive had while pubbing so far was on ff_hunted...

but then again, im not really much of a pubber anymore.

[Crazycarl]

damnit, I wrote a big old post but i got logged out and i lost it.
Short version:
CTF maps don't need yards or bases as we know them. You can cut out the yard and bring the flag closer, but make it more defensible. Flags that return on touch is something to consider. You want several routes through the middle map, but with the ability to switch between them if you meet resistance. Badlands is a good example.

hunted, AvD, and command point maps like warpath would please me.

[Green Mushy]

Thats not a bad idea. Place flags in easier spots for the offense, and are completely visible to the defense(so they know what they should defend). Have the flag return on drop, it would be complete madness.(the D doesnt have to move much, just dm and everybody is happy). No yard necessary. Ive always thought that crossing a yard sucks in pubs because u get sniped, chased, and your time is wasted.

Brainstorm: Easily visible flag on each base, and you bring it back to the middle of the map, where you cap a cz2 like cap point. And you battle for the center, also trying to nab flags. Some advantage to having the center capped..cant think of one(other then earning points). Or perhaps, the gametype is a kind of king of the hill at the center, and having the center capped respawns some healtpacks or something like that.

[Sh4x]

Basically ff_waterpolo with flags instead in place of the goals and cap point in center?

[Green Mushy]

ya basically, maybe a little bigger. I wouldnt want it to be laggy, so there would have to be bends and optimization in between the flags.

[Doughnut-4|4-]

I don't think the mods a failure cause its fun. It's too harsh to judge success today by numbers of gamers currently playing. PC gaming has taken a hit as we all know. I think I bought about 10 games this last year on xbox. There's just too many damn games to play and we have school/work. Halo3 maybe one of the best FPS games ever released (by some opinions) but I havent played that in months and it just came out...

A larger library of cohesive maps would help this mod but I don't think there'll ever been 100,000 players on all the time. I sorta wish the game had bots but they must be too difficult to program cause even foxbots from tfc sucked balls. I think the only intelligent bots ive ever seen were from Unreal Tournament.

Map lineups on servers seriously make or break the team fortress mods for me. I havent played much FF but are there many Attack/Defend servers or Dustbowl only servers or Hunted only servers or Vote servers or CTF only servers?... cause those were the servers I always played in TFC.

[BlisTer]

Originally Posted by Green Mushy

Maps need to be made in more of a way in consideration of stupid pubbers that just want to dm, and somehow that will complete the objective. Areas need to be shorter and more concentrated. People need to see action on their way to the objective. Optimization of maps should be priority. 9 fps at Front Door gates is fucking failure.

In stow2 you have both a map that clans accept, and on the other hand very short yard and fast access to enemy flag without many obvious possibilities for concs inside the base.. indeed more a small DM map but still CTF. And good fps without compromising on graphics. Maybe there should be a few pub servers out there with small CTF maps like this, dev_2fort and 2morefort, we dont want to throw away CTF completely do we. Simplifying everything to waterpolo type CTF maps are a bridge too far imo... and will scare ppl away too.

[own3r]

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

damnit, I wrote a big old post but i got logged out and i lost it.
Short version:
CTF maps don't need yards or bases as we know them. You can cut out the yard and bring the flag closer, but make it more defensible. Flags that return on touch is something to consider. You want several routes through the middle map, but with the ability to switch between them if you meet resistance. Badlands is a good example.

Been there done that...
http://www.fortress-forever.com/foru...ad.php?t=14697

[Dr.Satan]

You know…prior to my court shit happening, I was planning on making a map based off of game play from Resistance: Fall of Man.

The basic gist of the style is that you have Nodes that start out as neutral on map start. After taking a certain amount of damage, the node becomes a specific teams (red / blue). In Resistance you also have a central Team Based Node that slowly overheats and by taking the other nodes you slow / halt the overheat process depending on the amount of nodes your team posses. But for FF I was thinking of just making it point based and potentially removing points from the team with the least nodes to keep a team from just turtling a single node.

Once a team takes a node, there is approximately a 30 sec invulnerability added to the node and after that, the node can again be attacked by the opposing team and captured.

Neutral nodes take significantly less damage to capture then a team based node. But not so much that it is impossible to re-capture.

Anyway my idea was to place either 3, 5, or 7 nodes in the map. Players would get fortress points for Capturing a node and I was thinking players who had either damaged the node and / or were w/in a certain radius of the node would all get FP. This would encourage teams to attack a node together as opposed to trying to play it solo. Round would be won based on which team has the most points at the end of the game.

There are / were a few things though that I can’t figure out:

1) How to change the color of a node / room based on attacking team AND damage taken. I’m sure with a lot of .lua / coding it would be possible, but I don’t know (and haven’t really investigated) if it’s even possible with the current code.
2) Balancing would be VERY difficult. You have to make each node easily defendable, but not so easy that it can be turtled. And you have to make the points be close enough that a last min. capture of a node could potentially take the game. It shouldn’t be so easy that once a team has possessed 3 nodes for 2min it’s not even worth trying…resistance does this by the overheat very well…b/c you could have one sliver left on your overheat bar but still take the game by simply defending and capturing the points effectively.
3) Time limit would have to be considered. Eg. Is 30min long enough and if not how can we make it long enough to be fun but not too long that one team simply dominates the game every round? Potentially you could put a point limit on there (similar to dustbowl and capping the last cp) where if x team hits x pts. Then game ends.
4) Damage is a biggie! It would need to be balanced that with 2 / 3 classes attacking the node it goes down very quickly, but with a single playing going suicide it wouldn’t do much.
5) Since 2.0 I was thinking that meds / scouts are going to be pretty useless…so I wanted to code in something to the map that would allow med to “heal” the node via the toss able medpacks and maybe something like if a scout is within X units of the node damage is reduce by X amount. Again no clue how the fuck to do this, but I think it would be pretty cool right?
6) I would need a way to keep the team that posses the node from damaging it b/c that wouldn’t seem right IMO, BUT once the node is taken they would need to attack it…not sure how to do that.
7) The node should repair IMO…like if not attacked by someone / something within x time limit it goes back to full health…that or it is always slowly regenerating. Resistance does the slowly regenerating, but idk how that would work out with FF…might not regenerate fast enough, might to fast, idk…
WRT to regenerating, players would need some sort of visual indication as to the health of the node…but if it was always just on the HUD it would probably get very cluttered. I was thinking probably something like if players is w/in x units of the node, then it would cast a health bar or something (yet another thing that would need to be coded in me thinks)
9) Modeling would be a bitch…I would want the same model with multiple skins (team colored) and I don’t know step 1 about modeling… Plus possibly some way to have the model show damage (again showing players the health) so it would have to change based on damage taken, but be plausible that once it is taken and goes back to full health. Resistance has a really nice model that is basic, but has tubes that break on damage…if all are broken then the node is taken and if you wait to long they start to regenerate. Then once all are killed a door closes, the nodes repower, and it opens after the 30 sec of invulnerability to allow for the opposing team to attack…
10) Sg’s would have to be considered…I mean a team of 6 engies could pretty much ruin this game play it would have to be balanced in such a way that engies could play it, but not that they could shut down a node. I was thinking something like wide open map with small niches that posses the nodes…generally have plenty of ways into the room / niche that would allow for all sort of cool fun randomness when people come in. BUT it would have to be designed just right so that a like 3 sollies couldn’t just launch rockets from across the map at it and take a node. So what I have in my head is that there would be lots of entrances top, bottom, side, side whatever, but X units out from the node there would be a “forcefield” surrounding the outer area…so you could like walk under / around the window or whatever, but from too far, the node would be completely safe. THEN if more then say 1 engy is standing / building around said node…that forcefield would dissipate. So that if a team puts too many engies there then they open up themselves for long range barrage.
11) Spy sabotage – idk what to do with this…but it would be something EPIC! Maybe something similar to cz2 were the base has a command center and if a spy can sabotage the command center he can turn the node against the team…like sab it and the nodes act as an Sg and fire on their own team…if done right and coordinated with his team…a spy could sab that shit and hit it and the entire flow of the map could completely shift from one team to another. BUT that would require a dev b/c I know I can’t do something like that yet 

Mainly though…the biggest issue is that I don’t really have much time left before I have to go so all thit is pretty much never going to happen…would be cool though wouldn’t it!

EDIT: The resistance type is similar to the Assault game type (can't remember the other type's name) if your wondering.

[Green Mushy]

This is a great idea. You got me thinking too. Just dont make it like the pub failure of cz2. Id say the less nodes the better. Make it simple so people know where they are, and there is action there as well.

Also, id say just simplicity in general is needed for a new style of gametype. People really do like to get familiar with gametypes quickly. They dont want to donate time into figuring out something complicated. Also, nobody is really there to help them figure it out. Im just saying, i love this direction, but if you are to make it, make it noob friendly.

[Dr.Satan]

nah I won't be making it...at least not for another year or two. I won't be around to map unfortunately.

Someone else is free to take the idea and run with it if they are willing.

[GiGaBiTe]

Originally Posted by squeek.

It could be argued that the gameplay is too advanced for today's market. Games are devolving in my opinion.

I have to agree there. Back 12 years ago when Quake was big, most gamers were older than 16-17 so most of them were able to understand more complex gameplay. Now you have players that I have seen as young as 7 or 8 which is ridiculous.

Kids between 7-13 have no interest in learning how to play a game correctly or any sort of strategy, they just want pretty graphics and be able to shoot stuff. Sadly that usually ends up corrupting them later on turning them into idiots.

Really the only people I see playing FF are the people who started on TF in Quakeworld or early when TFC was still not overrun by noobs and bots.

[Dr.Satan]

Originally Posted by GiGaBiTe

Really the only people I see playing FF are the people who started on TF in Quakeworld or early when TFC was still not overrun by noobs and bots.

pretty much

[Doughnut-4|4-]

I like your idea. I just bought Unreal3 and it's got an almost exact style of game play called Warfare. I never liked cz1 or cz2 even back in TFC days... even with a team actually trying to win, which was rare outside league play.

And I don't buy the "this maps too complex for people" cop-out cause like I said Unreal3 just did this idea. And I recently released my most complex confusing map to date (ff_engysunite) and I think its my best received Fortress map yet; having released 3 previous so-so maps. I just think the PC gaming markets declined a little... we all got lives?

OH! And going back to a previous post I look for servers with cohesive maps... (an All CTF map server or a Hunted only server). So, if I gave one reason why this map would fail, it'd be because a server wouldn't host it 24/7 and there's no C.Point Map only Servers... And that's the only way I'd play it.

[Dr.Satan]

oh trust me...if it weren't for the pending jail / halfway house, this would get made.

There is just no way I could do something like this before the end of may and that's about as long as I have...

[zE]

To help populate a server and it works!! put hltv on your server, than join it alone! and wait, u will have 5 plp in 10 minutes, it helps to have small/medium maps and also helps, being nice to plp, and show up everyday in your server at the same time, or give admin rights to someone else and arranje it in a way to have always someone at that time around.

U can have an excelent maprotation, but the trick is to have someone there.

[Elmo]

zE: True that, our =AS= server does seem to be the most used at times. Always within 10 mins theres a decent few people on there wanting to play. Supprising amount of people that join are noobs and havent ever touched the game before. Just think the amount of times a noob come to check out the game and all we have are 50 empty servers and then they dont check it out cause there's no-one to play with!

Sounds stupid but even if we make these new maps we need to be on the servers playing them so the noobs will join!!

[Hirohito]

Fuck complicated maps, what we need are a few good DM maps. DM maps are a great way to increase skill, cool down and have fun at the same time. I'm sure that I'm not the only one that'd like to chill out in a simple DM arena after a stressful round in, say, Shutdown2.

I have a very rough map based on CoD4's "Wet Work" in my head. That map seems really TFey to me, and I'd like to adapt it for concers and Demomen.

[Elmo]

yeah, certainly interested to see how that'd turn out. I know the map from CoD4. And I agree dm maps are good. blockfort and 'that other one' where it looks like your in a fishtank are quite a lot of fun to play. Very simple too.

I dont think the problem is as much with the game as people seem to think. But I do agree dumbed down gamers aren't helpful. They seem to get enjoyment out of retarded achievments "heal 1000 people and you'll get a sticker!! WOOP WOOP"

I think the selling point of this game is that there IS a lot to learn. Thats why I've played it (TFC) so god damn long. 6/7 years.. I've lost count.. not bored... why? cause Theres always little things I've never realised I could do and I know I can be better/faster/more accurate/get more airs/find multiple ramp slides... its not just an AIM + SHOOT and thats why I love it.

We need the tuts for newbs - they need to see what can be done, they need to have it explained how and why. I do believe the failure is down to the fact newbs wanted the in-game tutorials/bots.. I know my friends from uni, that I've shown the game to, were waiting for the update when these were included. I dont even know if the idea has been trashed.. Having the tuts and explanations on wiki is pretty useless for most people.