The Sad State of Pubs

[Green Mushy]

Ok, so, the game of FF, mod of the year, is a winner game exclamation point. You know I love it. So many others do. So, why is it such an acquired taste of a game? Or rather, why do so few like it?

The issues that scream to mind are the fact that people are stupid, and like to dm in the yard. The truth is that most are stupid gamers. There seems to be a urn to kill people and not think about things. I think TF2 took this desire that stupid people have, and made it so you can be a brainless dmer, and complete team based goals. In FF however, this dynamic does not work, especially in pubs.

The state of pubs is in the dumps. 1 or 2 servers max, and governed by eo, ae, or oldtimers. Are.. you ... serious?!? The entire pub scene, the entire game play which every player experiences, and judge the game on, is controlled by these people?!?(no denotations here) The pub scene is what spawns everything about a game. If you log on, pub, and have a good time, you like a game. If you log on, pub, and have a horrendous time, you shit on the game.(this happens all the time) THE PUB SCENE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF FF if you want to attract more people.

A pubbing experience exists with tons of snipers, engineers, and spys, none of which are doing their job. Whats wrong with that? The people can choose what they want to play. A pubbing experience exists with no offense. They dont have to play O if they dont want to. The pubbing experience exists with no coordinated defense. Hey, this is a pub were talking about, not a clan match you extreme gamer. The pubbing experience exists WITHOUTH objectives in mind. Whoa whoa whoa, thats going to far, objectives are what this game is about. Some daresay that having fun is the point of the game, and i can agree to an extent, with this point in mind.

If the game itself is MORE FUN when played a certain way, that is the way it should ALWAYS be played. The objection to this would be that it is my opinion of the game, and it is different than others, and therefore my opinion is arbitrary. Are you kidding me? Everybody knows the game off FF is an objective based game. It's that simple. You can die, kill teammates, not kill anybody, kill everybody, it doesnt matter. The objective is what this game is about. And i cant keep but more then feel the feeling of frustration when pubs are not motivated by this idea. Do they not know the idea? Are they that stupid? Do they not care? Is it the fault of the mapper or the developer? Who knows? Im not here to place blame. I want to fix it. Pubs are a mess of nobody playing for objective, and coincidentally make the game extremely undesirable to new and old players alike.

How do we fix this? How can the game of FF be more desirable to first time pubbers? The question i ask myself is, "why are tf2 pubs so sucessful, and FF pubs so failure?". I start to think that it has something to do with the fact that TF2 pubs are constructed in such a way that you happen to dm in the same direction that the objective is. Isnt it that way in dustbowl, cornfield, palermo? Why doesnt it work then? Why arent people having a blast and telling their friends? Why do no pubs like doing these maps? I want to look to TF2, a successful "fortress" game, for examples, but we all know we cant do that. The game of FF is too different, and we need to look to our own ideas for strength.

The long and short of it is that i think that mappers are in more control of the mod then we think. Maps need to be made in more of a way in consideration of stupid pubbers that just want to dm, and somehow that will complete the objective. Areas need to be shorter and more concentrated. People need to see action on their way to the objective. Optimization of maps should be priority. 9 fps at Front Door gates is fucking failure. I have always been an opposed the idea of one flag carrier. In TF2, every player is a threat to the capping area. In FF only 1 person at 1 time can be a threat. So, i propose that there be more gameplay styles where you touch or have multiple touches on a capping area to complete the objective. This would keep the FF feel of sweet jumps and offensive techniques, and teamplay, and not yet the DM garbage of TF2.

I have always been boggled by the idea that pubs seem to vote more CTF maps like 2fort or Monkey, then AVD maps like dustbowl or palermo, and ironically dont care at all about the ultimate objectives of the map. I dont have many answers to these questions. All im proposing is that the future of mapping be more oriented in the direction of stupid pubbers and giving a good pub feel, rather then this prerequisite skill oriented wide open AvD maps.

[slay2rr]

I don't think mods winning awards really have an effect on whether people will play it. A perfect example is Dystopia, it had heaps of awards, and not alot of people play it. And i think the reason for that is it takes a while to pick up, just like FF. Most people who played for the first time don't know what the hell is going on> i guess people will play games that are more noob friendly than a game vith in-depth gameplay.

As for the objectives, lets take dustbowl for example, tf2 have a more "push" style game, where if you just go ahead and dm people it will pay off as your team pushes toward the capture point. FF on the other hand.... yeah you kind of have to push, but all you really need to do is get one guy to "slip" pass the defence and you've won. On a ctf map like 2fort, tf2 still have that "push" feel, you don't run offense with only scouts and medics, you need to roll out heavier classes to take down the SG and enemy D. In FF all you need to do is be a good concer, most offense in FF just consist of medic and scout, and they really get the job done, you don't need to worry about taking down the SG, just conc pass it.

So to conclude, i think players might like a more push styled gameplay, rather than a "one guy slips/concs through" and gameover type gameplay.

[Adamido]

Please explain me WHY midyard dm is not a good thing.

[Ihmhi]

Because it... takes away from the game... or something?

[GambiT]

personally i dont care what map it is, i dont give a damn about objectives, i just wanna fight.

[Elmo]

I'm guilty of being an oldschool player and mapper that doesnt like the idea of closed maps, never liked playing 2fort that much as being an offense player I like open spaces, my new map is full of places to conc about for that reason.

I agree that I built my map in mind of the experienced players cause I have more fun playing games with experienced people concing, rampsliding, against a coordinated defence with no red offence -vs- blue offence crossfire. Playing with noobs just doesnt get the fun of the game that we've been able to get.

Catch 22 - the game hasn't got the players to play with - more new players, AKA noobs, are needed so they can become experienced and play with us - we need to help noobs - but we don't want to help noobs - It just doesn't add up. And I completly agree with what you say that noobs like small push areas and feel. Experienced players & new players dont like the same style of gameplay.. If you change the gameplay the olds wont like it, if it stays how it is the new guys don't like it.

Maybe changes of mapping style could help. But you cant change too far from what the 'oldies' like. So, to work with what we've got already, its up to us oldies to help the noobs and get them involved more with our gameplay.. and even then it would be up to the noob if they could be arsed to learn it, I remember the fustrating hours learning to bhop and conc. My housemates have been trying for a while and are getting it but just cant quite. If they could they can see the game would be fun.

So my conclution... "This is a tough one" :/ I don't know

[squeek.]

I think the bottom line is that new maps need to start trying out new gametypes. Remake league maps, sure, but it is the pubs that are in real need of some fun-for-everyone maps. Start brainstorming ideas for some-what-DM-oriented gametypes that also can include fortress elements, and you may have yourself a winner of a map.

Also, as Mushy said, high FPS is easily the most important thing in any new made-for-pubs map. Looks aren't everything when you expect 22 people spamming like madmen on it.

[Pebbles]

Originally Posted by Adamido

Please explain me WHY midyard dm is not a good thing.

There's enough evidence right there that noobs and fortress vets don't mix and will never mix. It's because the offensive players need the health to try and get by the defense...or else it's considered unfair and obnoxious. Defense is supposed to stay INSIDE the base, or else it's not defense. But don't worry, you need time to catch on since you didn't play this style of game in the 90's.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by Pebbles

There's enough evidence right there that noobs and fortress vets don't mix and will never mix. It's because the offensive players need the health to try and get by the defense...or else it's considered unfair and obnoxious. Defense is supposed to stay INSIDE the base, or else it's not defense. But don't worry, you need time to catch on since you didn't play this style of game in the 90's.

It's also because midyard DM does not help your team get flags. Instead, it would turn into defense vs. defense very quick (see: pubs).

[Green Mushy]

Alright, so lets start brainstorming some AvD gametypes that would be more fun.

I propose stages that have multile capping areas that are capped when an offense player touches it. The door on the touched area would close, and the others would remain opened until somebody touched those as well. When they are all closed, stage over.

I propose an area that wins you points when you touch it. Or wins points by how long you stay in it(i dont think this would work due to instant spawns and spam)

Perhaps a cz2 type map with 3 linear cappoints instead of 5 spread out ones?

Perhaps checkpoints on longer maps.

Maybe have cap points that give players unagi damage, or invulnerability for a few seconds. That may entice players to want the objectives.

I think for future AvD maps, no gren2s Or maybe very limited gren2s. They are a source of spam in pubs, and concs break stuff for new gamers.

Another thing about pubs is that there should be autobalances all the time. I think its more of a specific server thing, but i say devs shouldnt even give them the choice. There should be autobalance no matter what. Nothing is worse in a pub then stacked teams that nobody fixes.

Flags are bad, i dont know why that dynamic keeps going in non-CTF maps.

[Firefox11]

Because when you know what you've got to do with the flag the games becomes way more intense than what happens in TF2, which IMO, is just dumb. Of course, if someone who doesn't know what to do with the flag gets it, then he gets flamed to disconnection because of that.

I think someone suggested things like arrows pointing to CPs/flags, if that's true this should fix this.

However, if there's any great idea for a new style of AvD map that works, then I'm up for giving it a try.

Multicapping areas that close after being capped seems that would be rather difficult to balance, and give low to no margin of error to the Defense. I don't know if you want that, if it's a gamemode to help pubs. If something, Warpath style, maybe not sequential.

For a 3 CP Cz2 map, you must keep in mind that if you remove Special Grenades the game will be only about which team can kill the other one faster, since the Scouts won't be able to Conc and trying to Nade jump the flag will get killed due to the immense amount of Defense.

I don't know if giving Damage/Invul Bonus is worth at all. In DB style maps it's not useful since after capping the map moves on. In Avanti style maps won't help that much neither, since even if you get killed you'll spawn closer to the CP, which can't be taken away again by the enemies. The only way I can see it working is in Warpath style, but then you would have Invul Scouts concing to the next CP everytime, or Soldiers spamming Quad rockets. I don't think this helps pub play.

[Thor-Stryker]

The reason why TF2's mapping works so well its because the majority of the maps are timed-capture points. Unlike Capture the Flag, speed is not extremely vital unlike it is in traditional Fortress gameplay. This encourages two things, one , slower classes can play offense as they are pretty much the, "defensive line" pushing its way up the map. Two, Defense is also offense, because TCPs are essentially a single flag, both teams have to focus on one spot, which means there is very little in the way of true defense. Capture the flag splits the two apart, which usually leaves an unbalanced level of offense on defense.

My suggestion would be to try Timed Capture Points out on a map or two, and see how they play.

[pF]

^I'd like to see that tested in a FF map or two. Fighting over a central point can make for hell of a fun time. I can see classes such as the pyro be very strong here, good for busting up clusters of enemies.


I've said it before, but apart from mapping, the game just needs to hammer the objectives into the player's skull.

- There need to be endgame tables or screenies, possibly even player animations (thinking of mario tennis etc here ) that clearly point out which team lost, and which team won. Blue caps more = Red team gets a fat "You lose! Cap that damn flag!1" screen plastered across their monitor after a round.

- Fortress points need to be worth more. I wouldn't go as far as taking out the kill score, but it needs to be apparent that Fortress points are far more important than your personal k/d ratio. Maybe 30 secs invulnerability after reaching 3,000 FP.. or some team accomplishment when your team breaks a certain FP barrier? Possibly even a map that only enables certain respawns closer to the front if your team gets n FP? Brainstorming here.. either way, FP need to be looked at, and made into an important factor of the game, and not just for Offense players either.

- Arrows pointing at objectives: Yes. Now.

- We should have at least one server which runs AvD maps exclusively. I also prefer CTF maps myself, but AvD does a much better job at demonstrating that FF is an objective-oriented game, plus you can DM.

Bla bla.. more suggestions are probably hidden somewhere in the remainders of my brain, but i can't seem to drag them up at the moment

[own3r]

Simplified, FF is too:
big
fast
complex
organised
difficult

[pF]

Ok, thanks!

[zE]

Today i was on our pub server, and i asked the guys who here there: what do u guys would like to see in this server, maybe some stat plugins ? and one off the guys answered a free version of TF2 :X
I personally blame FF graphism, 50% of the maps around look terrible, u can´t tell that this mode have a 10 years difference from TFC looking to the graphics, maybe 5 years or so.. Look at TF2 graphism.. is really good, funny looking, makes u feel good, than u have FF, depressing dark industrial feeling in the majority of maps, ugly caracters as the Hw,Engy etc. I personally think we can´t compete with the TF2 pub scene,that have 1001 incentives like achivements,new weapons etc, the only change we got is to grab the Tfc comunity that loves the gameplay of TFC and doesn't worry about the graphism..

[pF]

I dunno.. i might be backwards, but are FF's graphics really that shitty? The player models aren't really top of the line, but they're not half as bad as they're always made out to be. Some of the maps look awesome imo, and so do some of the effects in FF.

I would say it's a matter of taste.

[Doughnut-4|4-]

"Maps need to be made in more of a way in consideration of stupid pubbers"
Agreed.

I've always loved Avanti because two fairly evenly matched teams will both score caps, and the winner will be determined by the offense and defense of both teams. And by the way at the end of the match usually I have so much fun I don't care who won so long as the teams weren't extremely unbalanced.

Yard D is a big issue and that is 100% the mappers job to invite or reject... even in map remakes.

I think we'll all agree some maps are okay for yard D because they're so offensive and no places to defend inside... (ex: crossover & enclave are both great designs)

On the subject of graphics, as a mapper the HL2 engine isn't the upgrade I dreamt. The polygon count isn't 10x higher in the maps because HL2 can't really handle it. The textures are higher res but limiting even though there are 1000s... you filter the word "metal" and you're down to a dozen. And the lighting hasn't really evolved much from the original TFC tools from what I can tell. I'm not trying to complain, but hoping to explain to anyone who doesn't map... it's hard to make maps look as good as some I've seen without really knowing the game engine in and out.

[RocKwell]

They're really not that bad, but some say they look too similar to TFC, some say they look to dark, which I kind of agree with. TF2's model animations probably don't help much, either.

Much of this mod is split into two styles of gameplay: pubs and pickups, which is alright, nearly every FPS is like that. The problem lies when the map on a public server switches to Siden or league map and no one is going to want to follow clan style rules, they want to do whatever the hell they want. Which is fine, it's a pub, you should be able to have a little freedom.

Solution? Like what was mentioned above, I'd say go outside the box a little with the gametypes. Capture the flag is great, but I've seen pubbies have much more fun with hunted and murderball (kudos Nukem). This, along with low-FPS optimization, would help a lot.

[Sh4x]

Originally Posted by own3r

Simplified, FF is too:
big
fast
complex
organised
difficult

Exactly.

The 5 points you mentionned above also describe TFC exactly, all you would have to add would be "outdated graphics".

Why FF was made so similar to TFC, I don't know. But that's the reason it failed obviously when you look back on it. Just the fact that there was a DEV responsible for making sure that FF's gameplay would be as close to TFC as possible could have been the alarm bell for the most psychics of us. I never saw this failure coming but I kinda feel like it was possible to see beforehand now.

Obviously the gameplay lacks in todays market. It was the best thing a couple years ago, but games evolve and the gamers change too. What was hot yesterday can be outdated tomorrow and better graphics won't always save the day.