Merged: Disappointed TF2 and TF2 Impressions

[EngeeMan]

Originally Posted by mervaka

troll.

I am or he is? That is what the guy said who the previous guy quoted.

[oxylos]

Originally Posted by EngeeMan

I am or he is? That is what the guy said who the previous guy quoted.

I guess this was just an answer on your question.

[summit]

Originally Posted by mervaka

i couldnt disagree more. that would entirely break the game.

Little bit over the top, don't you think? Wasn't there a spawn timer for Ut2004 for Assault? My point is that people attached to the series are more likely to view games with a bias - one that, if the game doesn't conform to a preconceived notion of how the game should be, is a failure in the eyes of whoever as a Fortress game.

I'm trying to not argue opinions, just reasoning behind them. Okenora is right - I don't have nearly as much experience (in this game) as many do here - maybe that's why I approach things the way I do.

My belief a good compromise would be a cut down to 5-7 second respawn. I've caught the tailend of a spawn before and had to wait ~15 seconds, I agree it isn't the best part of the game (I'd rather be playing), but it's a part nonetheless.

Anyway I digress - from what I can remember, things are seldom "broke" by something as trivial as a spawn delay / pace slow down. Comparatively the pace might be slow as all hell, but putting things in perspective it isn't unbearably slow, just different I guess. (For me anyway :P)

[mervaka]

Originally Posted by EngeeMan

I am or he is? That is what the guy said who the previous guy quoted.

i think either i misread you, or you misread him. either way, you weren't trolling, so i retract my statement. (i skim forums too quickly )

Originally Posted by summit

Little bit over the top, don't you think? Wasn't there a spawn timer for Ut2004 for Assault? My point is that people attached to the series are more likely to view games with a bias - one that, if the game doesn't conform to a preconceived notion of how the game should be, is a failure in the eyes of whoever as a Fortress game.

I'm trying to not argue opinions, just reasoning behind them. Okenora is right - I don't have nearly as much experience (in this game) as many do here - maybe that's why I approach things the way I do.

i think to really appreciate what made a past game, you'd have to have played it in its heyday. sure it's nice to have a fresh perspective, but a lot of people feel that valve have taken the fortress brand away from its roots. imagine cs with instant respawning?

[summit]

cs-dm - infinitely better than a cs with no respawning!

In anycase, I do understand your point, and others. I know the pain of waiting for that sequel, but in my experience it can never beat what I've either built up in my mind, or my experiences from the game that made me love the series. Truthfully, fans of TF are lucky to have TFC and FF that vindicates their wants/needs.

[EngeeMan]

Originally Posted by summit

Little bit over the top, don't you think? Wasn't there a spawn timer for Ut2004 for Assault? My point is that people attached to the series are more likely to view games with a bias - one that, if the game doesn't conform to a preconceived notion of how the game should be, is a failure in the eyes of whoever as a Fortress game.

I'm trying to not argue opinions, just reasoning behind them. Okenora is right - I don't have nearly as much experience (in this game) as many do here - maybe that's why I approach things the way I do.

My belief a good compromise would be a cut down to 5-7 second respawn. I've caught the tailend of a spawn before and had to wait ~15 seconds, I agree it isn't the best part of the game (I'd rather be playing), but it's a part nonetheless.

Anyway I digress - from what I can remember, things are seldom "broke" by something as trivial as a spawn delay / pace slow down. Comparatively the pace might be slow as all hell, but putting things in perspective it isn't unbearably slow, just different I guess. (For me anyway :P)

The thing is, when you have to cap right near enemy spawn or run by the enemy spawn into a chokepoint to cap, you have to have the timers or some way to nerf the defense.

If you have instant respawn the offense has you run across the entire map , past every other hazard present, then past the immediate and heaviest defense to the goal. If you have flying and bhop the goal is to somehow get by so quickly that you entirely avoid all combat until you make it to the heavy defense at which point you will entirely avoid them until you get to the goal. Think about the 2nd point on dusbowl, almost every time I have seen it capped it was from a bending pipe jumper who landed directly on the point, bypassing all combat.

And if you actually try combat it doesn't matter because the enemy will repsawn instantly and be back in 1-2 seconds to reinforce whoever isn't dead still defending. So you have to create "rules" to benefit the offense like no chasing or whatnot because at a certain point it gets impossibly difficult to completely avoid combat and meet the goal.

But with just the addition of respawn timers (very short/non-existant for offense, long for defense) the amount of time it takes offense to get to the goal is about equalled, and combat becomes a viable option. Once you kill two people that is like a powerplay in hockey. They are less of a team for a significant amount of time so you have a much easier time to score, balancing the game and giving the offense a chance.

Personally, I prefer combat and shooting in a first person shooter. Other people perfer avoiding combat. Different games for different people.

But the thing is, if you just turn off the respawn timers in TF2 you are really going to screw up the game. People generally move slower and there are less ways to cross big parts of real estate like in TFC, so that, AND the defense spawning right on top of the goal instantly will crush balance so in favor of the defense that you are going to really have to compensate SOMEWHERE to make up the difference. You thought the pro-offense rules in TFC were bad? You'd have to have even more extra rules to still give offense a fighting chance.

[summit]

Elimination of that? Yeah I can see how extra balancing would be required (as with any other gameplay altering change) - a reduction? Maybe not so drastic change. Who's to say.

[4est]

Originally Posted by mistermojo

should have called it day of defeat fortress

lol... Or maybe

"Day of DeFortress?"

[Jiggles]

Yeah, removing the spawn timers might negatively impact gameplay, but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make

I'd say a 5 second respawn timer is ok, but anything longer is bad. It makes me not want to play Scout -- I love what they've done with him in TF2, but since he gets chewed up by SGs so fast (and every team seems to have at least 3 of 'em), I'm staring at the respawn timer far to often. I've had a lot more fun as Spy or Engy since I tend to die much less often. Well, it's not the dying I mind, it's the waiting to play that bugs me.

[Dr.Uudge]

Originally Posted by 4est

lol... Or maybe

"Day of DeFortress?"

LOL.

[EngeeMan]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Yeah, removing the spawn timers might negatively impact gameplay, but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make

I'd say a 5 second respawn timer is ok, but anything longer is bad. It makes me not want to play Scout -- I love what they've done with him in TF2, but since he gets chewed up by SGs so fast (and every team seems to have at least 3 of 'em), I'm staring at the respawn timer far to often. I've had a lot more fun as Spy or Engy since I tend to die much less often. Well, it's not the dying I mind, it's the waiting to play that bugs me.

Maybe some Ritalin would help?

[Jiggles]

Too expensive

[SoBe Green]

For the record I wasn't insulting the Devs or the beta testers. I was trying to be 100% bias free from a standpoint of playing both games within the past few days regardless of how long I've been waiting to play both. Obviously I don't hate the dev team or beta testers else I wouldn't be here and playing the game everyday...well maybe I hate Circ...a little

[4est]

Originally Posted by SoBe Green

.. Obviously I don't hate the dev team or beta testers else I wouldn't be here and playing the game everyday...well maybe I hate Circ...a little

If you only hate him a little... It makes you his #1 fan!

[Dr.Uudge]

I'm telling you man, this whole issue of FF>TF2 could have been avoided if valve just named their new fps game, "Valve's New Fps."

But then valve would not be able to get publicity and ads. And would be the new laughing stock of FPS gaming.

"Valve targets new audience unfamiliar with FPS gaming with their upcoming game, 'Valves New Fps' beta, which is nothing like team fortress style of gaming." - Sell-Outs Pro Games Mag Review.

[SoBe Green]

Well I guess I'm screwed either way haha

[Bubbles]

Fanboys of either "side", GTFO!
Kthxbye.

[GhOsT]

Originally Posted by Dr.Uudge

I'm telling you man, this whole issue of FF>TF2 could have been avoided if valve just named their new fps game, "Valve's New Fps."

But then valve would not be able to get publicity and ads. And would be the new laughing stock of FPS gaming.

"Valve targets new audience unfamiliar with FPS gaming with their upcoming game, 'Valves New Fps' beta, which is nothing like team fortress style of gaming." - Sell-Outs Pro Games Mag Review.

Yea... I know... god forbid the original creators of Team Fortress want to keep on using THEIR name.

[EngeeMan]

Originally Posted by GhOsT

Yea... I know... god forbid the original creators of Team Fortress want to keep on using THEIR name.

No, you see, I know what TF is supposed to be about more than the people who actually made TF and TFC so... [words]

Originally Posted by GhOsT

Yea... I know... god forbid the original creators of Team Fortress want to keep on using THEIR name.

Valve made TFC. They didn't make Quake Team Fortress, the original Fortress game.