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Old 01-23-2010, 07:35 PM   #241
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does it count the times other people have repeated what you said? Cause if so...you won ages ago!
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Old 01-29-2010, 02:24 AM   #242
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Thats from zE Palace servers, with no sniper limit slots
I think the image speaks by itself, look at those ratios
-3 limit slots for engineer and for pyro-

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Old 01-29-2010, 06:10 AM   #243
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Mind illuminating us on the obvious conclusions..? The numbers are pretty interesting, but I'm not seeing anything super massively out of line with snipers. Perhaps the k/d ratio is a bit higher than you might want, but their entire purpose is (one dimensionally) killing, so...

Things which stuck out for me, though:

- Soldier by far the most dominant class - too black...too strong?
- Spy's horrible k/d ratio - ouch!
- Pyro's clear ineffectiveness
- HWGuy only in the mid-range for lethality, least popular class
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Old 01-29-2010, 06:29 AM   #244
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The fact that Medic is #8 on that list. . . Ugh.
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Old 01-29-2010, 06:36 AM   #245
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A sniper at close range is just as effective with the sniper rifle as if he were at long range minus the damage he might take. No scoped shots are easier to me because you get more vision. Also at close range you have to learn to use corners. Its a kill or be killed situation. Aiming though is just as similar as a shotgun really.

Bridget, I suggest you play the sniper for a while on different maps and in different situations. I do some of the craziest shit with a sniper that most people don't expect. It makes playing the class worth while, especially if you somehow find yourself doing a bit of good out of it. And even if you don't, you can still get a good laugh out of it.

Oh, and about me asking to close the thread and you telling me to leave if I can't handle it.. Yeah, I'm still here. And I can handle it more so then you probably can the sniper, no offense. Just seems like this thread is more based on you hating the class then anything else. But if I'm wrong, Then surely you'll correct me.

It's a stale-mate thread. Nothing's going to change man, give it a rest.

Last edited by eomoyaff; 01-29-2010 at 06:37 AM.
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Old 01-29-2010, 03:43 PM   #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Born_In_Xixax View Post
Mind illuminating us on the obvious conclusions..? The numbers are pretty interesting, but I'm not seeing anything super massively out of line with snipers. Perhaps the k/d ratio is a bit higher than you might want, but their entire purpose is (one dimensionally) killing, so...

Things which stuck out for me, though:

- Soldier by far the most dominant class - too black...too strong?
- Spy's horrible k/d ratio - ouch!
- Pyro's clear ineffectiveness
- HWGuy only in the mid-range for lethality, least popular class
You ask for illumination, when you are standing in the sunlight admiring the pretty day.

(in other words, you're just listed what was the obvious.... 3rd most chosen class, without a disproportionate dominance. People play what they will, and not ruin the game.)
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Old 01-29-2010, 05:14 PM   #247
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Ye soldier by far is the most dominant class, but I also notice that soldier is the class picked mainly by experienced players, wich would help a bit the kdatio, by other hand i see mainly newbs playng as pyro so would explain a bit the low kdratio. So my conclusion is that engineer is one of the strongest class because i usually see newbies playing as ng.
And Born_In_Xixax my point is the same as yours, that sniper isnt overpowered in any way : )
Ps: Pyro and engeneer is limited to 3 slots.. I´m pretty sure if ng was not limited to 3 slots in some maps you would have half team playng as engineer :P

Last edited by zE; 01-29-2010 at 05:25 PM.
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Old 01-31-2010, 06:35 AM   #248
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I don't see how anyone can conclude that the Engineer is one of the strongest classes in the game simply because a ton of beginners play him. Beginners pick that class because it's straight-forward. It's not demanding because most of it is automated. Drop the gun and protect it. It does most of the work for you. This gives you more time to explore the game while at-least playing some part.

You showed the stats of one server, and now everyone thinks its a closed case? There needs to be more information. This level of play has to be consistent amongst more than one source to be accurate. Meh, even if the Sniper isn't dominating pubs left and right, his mode of play still breaks class interaction consistency. It's pretty unfair to have one class be the exception to an obviously intended pattern.

Someone once told me that the Sniper was 'that class that sits on the outside shooting people playing Fortress Forever." That about sums it up for me. The Sniper concept is flawed in pretty much every game because it isn't offered as an alternative class. It's a direct upgrade. A purely advantage based class.

In games such as Red Orchestra, the Sniper and the Riflemen, whom were developed to fight at long range and close/medium range respectively, deal the same amount of damage. One of them can pick people off from across the map, but with this advantage, the player sacrifices consistency as it becomes harder to predict bullet drop and time to compensate. The close to medium range rifleman doesn't have to compensate nearly as much. He is guaranteed to make his target with minimal effort. He is an alternative class.

I was never pissed when a Sniper picked me out in Red Orchestra because I knew he had to compensate and learn an alternative mode of fighting that allowed him to do it. He had to predict the time his bullet would arrive at his target and had to adjust for the gravity pulling it down. It took a high threshold of skill. Pointing and clicking with a hitscan rifle takes skill, but not that much.

You may argue that the Sniper's weakness (his health and armor) are sufficient enough to make him an alternative class, but those downsides do not affect his ability to deal high amounts of damage with minimal effort. It is merely a latent downside that only becomes apparent when the enemy has managed to play to luck to cross the field. In Red Orchestra, the downside is built into his beneficial mode of play. The order of operations becomes:
  1. Negate downside (adjust for gravity, time, and so on)
  2. Get Benefit (long range kill).

In Fortress Forever, there is no downside the Sniper himself has to bypass to be potent. There is no order of operations. He steps out of his base with his rifle ready to deal damage at his maximum potential. The downside has to be applied by the victim, only when he has managed to bypass the inherent strength of the Sniper. It's absolutely backwards.

The game should be applying a downside to the Sniper, one which he must bypass in order to be effective. That would at-least be a step toward a better gaming experience, however imperfect still. I hope you get my point, because I think it makes some damn good sense. What does the Sniper have to do to earn his benefit? Nothing. Is that fair when every other class has to earn their benefit or advantage? No, it's not fair at all. Fix it.

EDIT: Let's be fair. The Sniper does have to charge his weapon to deal damage, but the base damage is pretty good too. It's essentially a long range super shotgun with the spread condensed to a single point with a scope. Any headshot with it becomes around 80 some points of damage. That is something the Sniper has to do to be potent, but is it something difficult or interactive?

You just hold a button down; You wait a few seconds; You get a huge increase in damage from no work. Compare that to the huge benefit that the Sniper gets out of it, and the scale is still off terribly. Here's my compromise. I think the Sniper should just be scrapped, but he would be less of a problem if the person playing the class had to compensate for something or negate an applied and constant downside or something like that. Projectile? Gravity? Time-based? Figure something out.

Last edited by Bridget; 01-31-2010 at 06:46 AM.
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Old 01-31-2010, 06:46 AM   #249
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Stir that pot up some bore baby!

The sniper has an unfair distance advantage is not a valid arguement over and over. Neither is comparing the class to other snipers in different games, that's a non issue. This isn't red orchestra, classes are different if different games, sometimes more advantageous. If a sniper class doesn't have advantage over distance, it ceases to be a sniper. But i don't wanna get sucked into this cyclical arguement any more than I already am, sorry to add more fodder to this thread =\
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Old 01-31-2010, 07:02 AM   #250
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Stir that pot up some bore baby!

The sniper has an unfair distance advantage is not a valid arguement over and over. Neither is comparing the class to other snipers in different games, that's a non issue. This isn't red orchestra, classes are different if different games, sometimes more advantageous. If a sniper class doesn't have advantage over distance, it ceases to be a sniper. But i don't wanna get sucked into this cyclical arguement any more than I already am, sorry to add more fodder to this thread =\
Who is stirring some pot? This is a discussion. If anyone is being antagonizing, I would have to point the finger at you. It is a very valid argument. Your own argument that my argument is invalid, is in itself, an invalid argument because you supply no reason. Why isn't it a valid argument?

Second, I was not comparing the classes between the two games. I was merely stating that Red Orchestra had balanced their Sniper class out by making it difficult to play. If you want that long range benefit, you have to compensate to get it, something the other classes don't have to do as much at their limited range. I was comparing game theory and balance.

Third, this has been brought up multiple times. The definition of what makes something a Sniper. Can you show me the sources where you obtain a definition that includes range as a defining characteristic? All the ones I found (except one which did mention range) only had concealment as the defining characteristic.

I realize that the Sniper's advantage in Fortress Forever is to fight at long range. However, that just doesn't seem to fit in a game where 9/10 classes are only effective at close or medium range. Sniper is an exception class. A spoiled class with no real downsides or counters. Here are some suggestions, however imperfect:

1.) Apply a perpetual downside to the Sniper, whether it be a projectile that has to compensate for bullet drop and movement time. The only real 'downside' to the Sniper now has to be imposed by the victim. That means it is only apparent if the victim manages to get close, which is playing to luck. The downside has to be as inherent as his advantage. Is a situational downside sufficient if the Sniper has the power to prevent such a situational downside? Nope. The downside has to be hardwired.

2.) If the Sniper is defined by distance only, let's scrap the Sniper's huge damage and give him a weapon that rewards consistency. Perhaps for each shot the Sniper makes, his damage increases by x and slowly decays back down to a 'base amount'. If he can consistently hit his target (as a true marksmen) then he can deal huge amounts of damage. If you can't hit your targets consistently, then you do 'okay'.

The Sniper can't have his cake and eat it too. Why should he get long range and huge damage? Either give him a pretty hefty amount of damage (no insta-gib) in a weapon that does well at medium range or allow him to keep his range advantage but only if his huge damage gets scrapped as above. That's the only solution I can think of beside just straight trashing the entire class.

Last edited by Bridget; 01-31-2010 at 07:08 AM. Reason: accuracy => consistency
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Old 01-31-2010, 11:25 AM   #251
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Civilian has better K/D ratio than Medic roflol.

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Old 01-31-2010, 09:35 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by VentuSag3 View Post
Civilian has better K/D ratio than Medic roflol.
Only because of that waterpolo map - they can't be killed and deal like 50x their normal damage if they're in a certain area. It's a popular map on that server.

We've been through this same argument page after page (and it's a bad one). Basically all I'm getting out of this thread is some people going through boxes and boxes of tissues while posting about how the sniper has an advantage over long range and it's just not fair. Every class is unique in some way, the sniper does have an advantage over long range and every other class has a unique advantage too (everything said about the sniper in this thread can be said about virtually any other class - see my spy thread, the argument is conceptually identical). Get over it and learn to play effective offense. Good offense will consistently get past snipers (or else snipers would be used in matches) and I'm sorry that you haven't figured out how to conc jump yet.

Sniper is fine the way it is. The best way to fix the imbalance issues would be to replace the nailgun with something better at close range - that way it will be able to stack up better with the other classes instead of being incredibly weak at close range.
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Old 01-31-2010, 09:48 PM   #253
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2.) If the Sniper is defined by distance only, let's scrap the Sniper's huge damage and give him a weapon that rewards consistency. Perhaps for each shot the Sniper makes, his damage increases by x and slowly decays back down to a 'base amount'. If he can consistently hit his target (as a true marksmen) then he can deal huge amounts of damage. If you can't hit your targets consistently, then you do 'okay'.
in a game as fast as this the sniper gets one shot (except for 1 map) awarding consistency would be impossible unless hitting the target made them crawl. the sniper does not have the chance to fire at a target 5 times to kill someone because he is so weak and would be dead after he fires the second shot.

EDIT: remove arddvark from map rotation, 90% of sniper bitching goes away.

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Old 01-31-2010, 09:48 PM   #254
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Every class is unique and has a special skill. You're right. All of those skills have to be utilized at close range where the other player can use their skill as well. It balances out. It's not the skills in particular, it's the means by which they are achieved. The Heavy mows down enemies at close range, but that's where they get to use their skills effectively as well, so they can fight back and it isn't guaranteed to be a losing battle. I CAN NOT FIGHT BACK WHEN I AM ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE MAP. Whether it be aardvark or 2fort or bases or even fucking hunted. He gets to use his skill all he fucking wants until I get close and getting close means playing to luck for any real combat-oriented class. No, using counter-intuitive methods such as 'just spam the battlements, brah! just empty all your rockets in his general direction, brah, just omg learn 2 play brah camp da battlements 'n' get banned brah' are not valid.

It doesn't come down to strategy or skill. I know how to conc jump and back when I played, I got past Snipers often (only using the Scout and Medic) and rarely when using any other 'heavy' offense class. The only time I could cross the yard without any fear was when my team was camping the enemy battlements, sacrificing their experience and derailing the intended gameplay to combat a broken fucking class. That's not it, though.

It's the fact, the core fact, that the Sniper kills people from across the map as his intended means of play. It's the fact that he's an exception class. One little class that is an exception to how Fortress Forever is played BY EVERY OTHER FUCKING CLASS. It's not that difficult to grasp, but that point seems to just fly past you time and time again. That's the only reason this argument has been going on and on, because everyone with a clue has thought "Oh, maybe if I repeat it a billion times, they'll get it."

The Sniper needs to fare well at close range while being a beast at long range? How biased are you? Do you not understand balance? You're already getting your hand held. It's YOU who needs to learn how to play the game. Play a real class, hm?

How about a class that is actually challenging? How about a class that has to actually face other classes who are capable of defending themselves and dealing damage back, where the outcome of a fight is determined by who is the better fighter not by playing a class that gets the immediate upper-hand and kills people who can't fight back. Are you proving yourself with such a class? No, you, are, fucking, not. Have fun getting your hand held.

Quote:
in a game as fast as this the sniper gets one shot (except for 1 map) awarding consistency would be impossible unless hitting the target made them crawl. the sniper does not have the chance to fire at a target 5 times to kill him because he is so weak and would be dead after he fires the second shot.
The rail gun wouldn't take as long to fire. That would give the Sniper a window to consistently hit his target. The Sniper NOW doesn't have the opportunity to fire on targets in succession; You're right. I'm not talking about how he plays now when making that suggestion. (This gets compensated for with more than one Sniper anyway.)

Last edited by Bridget; 01-31-2010 at 10:08 PM.
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Old 01-31-2010, 10:16 PM   #255
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It's the fact that he's an exception class. One little class that is an exception to how Fortress Forever is played BY EVERY OTHER FUCKING CLASS.
EVERY class is an exception to how Fortress Forever is played BY EVERY OTHER FUCKING CLASS. This point seems to fly past you time and time again. That's the only reason this argument has been going on and on, because everyone with a clue has thought "Oh, maybe if I repeat it a billion times, they'll get it."

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How about a class that is actually challenging?
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Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
POINT 'N' CLICK GUARANTEED WIN class
The sniper is an easy class to be OK with and a very difficult class to be good with. IMO the sniper requires at least as much aim and reaction ability as any other class. Go ahead and reduce it to point and click, but in the end it's a computer game and yeah, you're right. 'Point and click' is the definition of aim on a computer game. Give me any other class and I'll reduce it to 'point and click' terms as well. The truth is that there is a HUGE GIANT skill discrepancy between average and good snipers, which proves that it takes a lot of skill to become good.

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It's YOU who needs to learn how to play the game.
I've been playing this game since qtf and have participated in several leagues using a bunch of classes (obviously, I enjoy sniping most because I feel that it's one of the most challenging). Didn't you come here from TF2? I wasn't gonna bring it up...
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Old 01-31-2010, 10:39 PM   #256
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EVERY class is an exception to how Fortress Forever is played BY EVERY OTHER FUCKING CLASS. This point seems to fly past you time and time again. That's the only reason this argument has been going on and on, because everyone with a clue has thought "Oh, maybe if I repeat it a billion times, they'll get it."
I like the part where you, like the Spy thread, can't actually present an argument so you do nothing but take people's posts and mock them in a childish manner. I'll offer you the same treatment from now on, and if you want to address my arguments with some level of sincerity, then they're laid out page after page.

Every class plays differently when it comes to specifics, but each class plays in general at a close to medium range. We can logically conclude, that because every class (excluding Sniper) plays at these ranges at their maximum effectiveness, that everyone is able to defend themselves, deal damage, and interact. It becomes a situation where, in order to kill your enemies, you must better them in combat.

That's how a skillful game is played. That's how a game where you're expected to be experienced is played. The Sniper doesn't have to prove himself or 'best' his enemies because his core means of play allows him to kill people before they even get close. It's that simple. He's the exception class, an unfair class that was included just for nostalgia and/or to appeal to players who can't get their act together and/or as a fall-back class for people who are just terrible and need a 'helping hand'.

There is no purpose to the Sniper except to rage people who have balls enough to want to play a class where they can prove themselves with skill, dominating enemies because they proved themselves the better fighter instead of picking off enemies before they could fight back — falling victim to the delusion that playing Sniper is an accomplishment. Killing someone as Sniper? Sniper takes skill to use in general, but no one playing Sniper has any right to boast they are better than someone, because their class is broken. It's like bringing a handgun to a paintball tournament. It doesn't belong, it never will belong, and so on. It might take some skill to fire a handgun or aim with a handgun, but when we put it in perspective and compare it with the other means of play, then it's unfair, right? It's so sad I have to resort to such a stupid analogy. I repeat:

Quote:
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How about a class that is actually challenging? How about a class that has to actually face other classes who are capable of defending themselves and dealing damage back, where the outcome of a fight is determined by who is the better fighter not by playing a class that gets the immediate upper-hand and kills people who can't fight back. Are you proving yourself with such a class? No, you, are, fucking, not. Have fun getting your hand held.
Refer to the above quote. Circular argument over! Get good, buddy. At-least have the balls to admit you're playing a class that is radically different from the way the other classes play in terms of range of effectiveness, which allows you a 'safety net' with your play and gives you an unfair advantage. At-least be man enough to do that. Are you? C'mon? I doubt it. D'aw. o:
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Old 01-31-2010, 11:26 PM   #257
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I like the part where you, like the Spy thread, can't actually present an argument so you do nothing but take people's posts and mock them in a childish manner. I'll offer you the same treatment from now on, and if you want to address my arguments with some level of sincerity, then they're laid out page after page.
I'll address your arguments with some level of sincerity when you make a good one. The sarcastic nature of some of my posts is here to underline just how childish I feel this entire argument is (though the sarcasm hardly makes my points invalid). Again, the spy thread is conceptually identical to the argument you're making here. Right now it just sounds like you're whining...

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Every class plays differently when it comes to specifics, but each class plays in general at a close to medium range. We can logically conclude, that because every class (excluding Sniper) plays at these ranges at their maximum effectiveness, that everyone is able to defend themselves, deal damage, and interact. It becomes a situation where, in order to kill your enemies, you must better them in combat.
We can logically conclude, that because every class (excluding Spy) lacks the ability to become completely invisible, that everyone is able to confront their enemies, defend themselves, deal damage, and interact.

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The Sniper doesn't have to prove himself or 'best' his enemies
In the same way that a demoman with pipes laid must prove himself by blowing those pipes at the right time despite a scout trying to juke them, a sniper must prove himself by hitting a scout despite that scout trying to juke him. The offensive class doesn't face any class straight-up, he attempts to get around them or throw them off. The sniper is no different, the scout must use his/her skill to throw off every class and those classes must attempt to prevent the offense from getting past them. The sniper absolutely 'bests' his enemies by preventing them from getting past, just like any other defensive class. The scout 'bests' his enemies by getting past them and capping the flag, just like any other offensive class.

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He's the exception class, an unfair class that was included just for nostalgia and/or to appeal to players who can't get their act together and/or as a fall-back class for people who are just terrible and need a 'helping hand'.
All classes are 'the exception class'. Additionally:
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The sniper is an easy class to be OK with and a very difficult class to be good with. IMO the sniper requires at least as much aim and reaction ability as any other class. Go ahead and reduce it to point and click, but in the end it's a computer game and yeah, you're right. 'Point and click' is the definition of aim on a computer game. Give me any other class and I'll reduce it to 'point and click' terms as well. The truth is that there is a HUGE GIANT skill discrepancy between average and good snipers, which proves that it takes a lot of skill to become good.

Quote:
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Get good, buddy. At-least have the balls to admit you're playing a class that is radically different from the way the other classes play in terms of range of effectiveness
I've never argued against the fact that the sniper's strength is his range of effectiveness - just as the spy's strength is his ability to become invisible. Neither has an equivalent, though there are definitely other classes that are fairly effective at range and no classes that can partially cloak (does that make the spy worse?).

As for the 'get good' comment, I'm pretty sure you're the one bitching about the snipers that constantly kill you. If you were good at offense it wouldn't be an issue.

There is no such thing as a fair fight in this game between different classes. Some situations drastically favor a particular class (and this is absolutely not limited to the sniper), but all fights between two different classes (all other things being equal) will favor one class or the other depending on the particular situation. You can still beat someone with a class advantage particular to a situation by being more skillful, but that doesn't change the fact that different classes are good for different situations.

This thread just keeps going round and round. I can almost just quote myself from here on out in response to all of the arguments you've made (and I'm sure you can do the same considering your pages and pages of posts). We're not going to agree - I fail to see how you can possibly pick the sniper as the class to bitch about (except after you play a game vs someone as accurate and fast as me, muhaha) and you fail to see how your argument can apply to virtually every single class.

Can we wrap this up before it gets to page 20?

Last edited by TheKing; 01-31-2010 at 11:31 PM.
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Old 01-31-2010, 11:40 PM   #258
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Snipers are OP? hmm, that strange, all the statistics show they are no better than any other class...and they aren't effective in competitive play, which they would be if they were superior.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget
Hurr durr Snipers are op Durf durf ( completely ignores the point about high level play. Continues to make the same arguments about distance advantages. Durps and hurps some more. )

Last edited by VentuSag3; 01-31-2010 at 11:53 PM.
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Old 01-31-2010, 11:57 PM   #259
Bridget
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKing View Post
We can logically conclude, that because every class (excluding Spy) lacks the ability to become completely invisible, that everyone is able to confront their enemies, defend themselves, deal damage, and interact.
Did you not read my post? The Spy's cloak is a problem for a different reason. You're arguing individual skills instead of general play. The Spy still has to get close to use the cloak. He takes a risk to use it. He isn't guaranteed that advantage the second he comes out of his spawn. I do think the Spy's cloak is a problem, but not for the same reason and not even at the same level. The Spy is not a problem, his cloak is. The Sniper is a problem all together. His entire class concept does not belong. P E R I O D

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKing View Post
In the same way that a demoman with pipes. . .
We're talking about in a one versus one fight where the players must interact with one another. The Sniper interacts with his enemies but his enemies can not interact with him. That Scout, though it is irrelevant because Scout is an exceptional class that doesn't focus on offense or defense in terms of combat (nor is he problematic in his exception) could easily fight back with the Demoman at the best of his ability. Take an example that's relevant. The Heavy is best at close range, but so are his opponents, so it evens out. No other class is good at long range. Period. This leads to your next point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKing View Post
though there are definitely other classes that are fairly effective at range. . .
What classes are effective at long range?


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKing View Post
As for the 'get good' comment, I'm pretty sure you're the one bitching about the snipers that constantly kill you. If you were good at offense it wouldn't be an issue.
Yeah, because my inability to fight back against a class that can kill me across the map and in one hit is my fault and not the fault of those who decided to preserve the Sniper in this game like the rest. All the suggestions for how to play offensive correctly (in order to counter the sniper) have been petty and desperation-based, things that I have to do because the Sniper counters me (spam rockets, take alternate route, damage myself to cross the map, camp the battlements and derail the intention of the game, etc)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKing View Post
There is no such thing as a fair fight in this game between different classes. Some situations drastically favor a particular class (and this is absolutely not limited to the sniper), but all fights between two different classes (all other things being equal) will favor one class or the other depending on the particular situation. You can still beat someone with a class advantage particular to a situation by being more skillful, but that doesn't change the fact that different classes are good for different situations.
You're right. There is no such thing as absolute fairness, but we can at-least balance some fights out as close as possible. The Soldier dominates in enclosed areas because you have more of a difficulty avoiding the splash. The Medic dominates with a little breathing room. The Pyro dominates when you can't run and he can light you up. However, they don't control the entire situation. It's not entirely in their favor like it is with the Sniper. You can fight back with some effectiveness. The Sniper has control of the entire fight or most of it immediately. The 'balance' is way off there, unlike a Heavy vs a Medic, where the Heavy just has a bit of an advantage. The fight almost always goes to the Sniper.

Mm, circular argument is back. What am I doing? I shouldn't even care anymore. It's obvious you're the one who's bad at this game. What other purpose would anyone give up the usefulness and fairness of the Soldier or Medic or Heavy or Demoman or any other class for that reason? Sorry, you suck. End of discussion. I'm tired of wasting my time here.

@Ventu: ALL of the statistics show? Last time I checked, that was only from one server. No one can draw an objective conclusion off one test. Why don't you show some other servers? Is this consistent? Well, it is irrelevant either way, but you can prove me wrong that he's at-least not overpowered in terms of damage and kill/death ratio or whatever. Do it?

Done here. I'm not the best representative for the 'Sniper is a problem.' side of the argument, because I get easily irritated when people miss the point and blah blah blah on and on about irrelevant shit. I don't see why I'm even having this argument. What do I expect you guys to do? The development team already knows Sniper is broken. They'll take care of it. Yup. Have fun getting your hand held.

P.S. There is no argument anymore. I've come to realize this argument is a lot like the people claiming 'There's an internal argument about Evolution.' in Science. There isn't. Likewise here, there is no 'internal' argument about whether the Sniper is broken or not. It's accepted. The people who I trust to make decisions know it's fucked, they know it has to be fixed, and I will leave it to them to fix it. The opinions of some forum-goers who lack intellectual honesty mean nothing. Later. (:

Last edited by Bridget; 02-01-2010 at 12:12 AM.
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Old 02-01-2010, 12:58 AM   #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
Did you not read my post? The Spy's cloak is a problem for a different reason. You're arguing individual skills instead of general play. The Spy still has to get close to use the cloak. He takes a risk to use it. He isn't guaranteed that advantage the second he comes out of his spawn. I do think the Spy's cloak is a problem, but not for the same reason and not even at the same level. The Spy is not a problem, his cloak is. The Sniper is a problem all together. His entire class concept does not belong. P E R I O D
Because you said P E R I O D it must be true. Seriously though, I did read your post and am pointing out another example of a class with a distinct, unique advantage that is unfair in particular situations. Once cloaked and hidden, he has a very obvious advantage over every other class. In the same way that the sniper doesn't fit in, the spy doesn't fit in.

Additionally, on most maps the sniper is actually disadvantaged when they leave spawn until they get in position (most maps don't have battlements right outside of spawn - aardvark is the obvious exception). The spy is disadvantaged when they leave spawn until they get into position too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
That Scout, though it is irrelevant because Scout is an exceptional class that doesn't focus on offense or defense in terms of combat (nor is he problematic in his exception) could easily fight back with the Demoman at the best of his ability. Take an example that's relevant. The Heavy is best at close range, but so are his opponents, so it evens out. No other class is good at long range. Period. This leads to your next point.
The heavy lacks the ability to conceal himself, but so do his opponents, so it evens out. No other class can become invisible. Period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
What classes are effective at long range?
Engineer and solider, though certainly not as effective as the sniper (and before you bring it up - I never said they were), are two examples of classes that excel at range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
You're right. There is no such thing as absolute fairness, but we can at-least balance some fights out as close as possible.
If the objective is to balance out the classes, then why have different classes at all? Each fight would solely rely on a player's skill if there was only one class. I personally feel that the game is funner with multiple classes with distinct abilities/weapons/situational advantages...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
The Soldier dominates in enclosed areas because you have more of a difficulty avoiding the splash. The Medic dominates with a little breathing room. The Pyro dominates when you can't run and he can light you up. However, they don't control the entire situation. It's not entirely in their favor like it is with the Sniper. You can fight back with some effectiveness. The Sniper has control of the entire fight or most of it immediately. The 'balance' is way off there, unlike a Heavy vs a Medic, where the Heavy just has a bit of an advantage. The fight almost always goes to the Sniper.
Every class has a particular situation in which they win the vast majority of fights. Sniper excels at range but is a shitty class when you get into a close range fight. In a heavy vs sniper fight at close range, the fight almost always goes to the heavy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
Mm, circular argument is back. What am I doing? I shouldn't even care anymore. It's obvious you're the one who's bad at this game. What other purpose would anyone give up the usefulness and fairness of the Soldier or Medic or Heavy or Demoman or any other class for that reason? Sorry, you suck. End of discussion. I'm tired of wasting my time here.
I'm actually pretty good (particularly with that damn sniper class). I'm one of the better snipers on FF (not saying I'm the best - but I don't think a lot of people would argue with me being one of the best) and was ranked as high as #2 in the top20 (world ranking of snipers in TFC). I've also played in STA as an engineer/soldier and am decent with several classes.

Besides, you're the one bitching about not being able to get past me.

What's the circular argument again? I'm not sure that you ever told me which part of my argument you found to be circular? Perhaps I can clear that up for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
@Ventu: ALL of the statistics show? Last time I checked, that was only from one server. No one can draw an objective conclusion off one test. Why don't you show some other servers? Is this consistent? Well, it is irrelevant either way, but you can prove me wrong that he's at-least not overpowered in terms of damage and kill/death ratio or whatever. Do it?
This is from your server's stats (you're in talos, right?). It doesn't have kill:death stats but the usage statistics are surprisingly consistent with ze's: http://talos.hlstatsx.com/weapons/ff

FF.SNT (has kill:death ratios):
http://ffsnt.hlxcommunity.com/stats/...=roles&game=ff

Monoxide's (has kill:death ratios):
http://ffsnt.hlxcommunity.com/stats/...oles&game=mono


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
Done here. I'm not the best representative for the 'Sniper is a problem.' side of the argument, because I get easily irritated when people miss the point and blah blah blah on and on about irrelevant shit. I don't see why I'm even having this argument. What do I expect you guys to do? The development team already knows Sniper is broken. They'll take care of it. Yup. Have fun getting your hand held.
There's no need to get angry here Bridget - I can respect that you care about the game even though I strongly disagree with you. I'm not missing your point, I just don't think it's a valid one. Repeating it over and over isn't going to make it any more or less correct.

Anyways, the sniper takes quite a bit of talent and skill. The discrepancy between average and good snipers speaks for itself. If what you said is true and the development team is changing the game to calm your bitching, then who's getting their hand held here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
P.S. There is no argument anymore. I've come to realize this argument is a lot like the people claiming 'There's an internal argument about Evolution.' in Science. There isn't. Likewise here, there is no 'internal' argument about whether the Sniper is broken or not. It's accepted. The people who I trust to make decisions know it's fucked, they know it has to be fixed, and I will leave it to them to fix it. The opinions of some forum-goers who lack intellectual honesty mean nothing. Later. (:
Are you comparing yourself and a handful of people in this FF community to the solidarity of the scientific community on the topic of Evolution? There are maybe 10 people who posted here who agree with you and just as many who disagree. If it really is the intention of the staff to turn the sniper rifle into a glorified railgun or to add TF2 style zooming (or nurf the sniper in some other way) than I think it's a shame that a handful of whiners armed with tissues hijacked the development of the game.

IMO you lack 'intellectual honesty', all of your points are just a frustrated attempt to change the game so that you can be better at it. At it's heart, your arguments are for changing this game to suit you instead of just becoming better at the game. Plenty of people get past even the best of snipers very very consistently.

Last edited by TheKing; 02-01-2010 at 01:59 AM.
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