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Old 01-22-2010, 12:55 PM   #221
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Old 01-22-2010, 01:05 PM   #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VentuSag3 View Post
...
How many development team members and regular forum goers have to constantly point it out to you time and time again that you do nothing but argue out of scope? I argue out of scope too by addressing your arguments. I shouldn't have given them any credence and simply ignored you. Refer to this argument:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Mushy
Its not an issue of the class being used or not used in league play, nor is it about the class being overpowered. Both squeek and i have tried to explain this in previous posts. Ill try to use an analogy. If there is a class that can use his mind to kill any player he can see instantly, but it takes 30 seconds to charge up, that class would not be used in league play. [However, that] class is still broken. We would still be having the same exact argument, and still be making the same points. The issues would remain the same. Its about the mechanic of a long range weapon.
. . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by eomoyaff View Post
Please close this Thread.
This thread isn't going to be to be closed simply because you can't handle it. You can consciously make the decision not to visit it or post in it or what have you. Discussion gets heated. It's a fact of life. Now stop contributing to what you have a problem with, and let's get back to the topic at hand.

Quote:
I actually like this thread, it's quite thought stimulating. I agree with the 'anti-snipers' adamantly... As a Demoman and Soldier, all it takes is one sniper for me to have to completely freaking change my tactics to simply suicide bombing them instead of focusing on what I usually do.

That takes a rocket and two grenades, or three grenades and an MIRV. After the 10th time they won't kill me in midair, so I'll have a chance to spawn camp that prick until he starts crying. But at that point I've got like 30 HP and 5 Armor, all taxes based on the blast damage and falling I've sustained just to get to the other side of the field. So either way I'm screwed. If I don't change my focus to him, I'm pretty much quarantined on my side of the map.
Yeah, this is a huge problem. The Sniper is such an annoyance that you have to sacrifice core gameplay to take him out. This is why I frown upon the current suggestions for countering Snipers. They counter intuitive and desperate and quite the opposite of 'countering' Sniper. They don't counter the sniper, they're tactics you take because the Sniper countered you.

Why would I waste my time concing the Sniper when I could use that concussion grenade to try to get the enemy flag? Why would I play a demoman and camp the battlements to counter the Sniper (which has got me kicked so many times and banned a few others) when I can contribute to my team's defense however unexciting? Why would I want to take up an Engineer slot playing offensive with the railgun simply to kill a Sniper who would respawn instantly and be right back to business once he runs out of his spawn? Is this Fortress Forever or some MMORPG with an entire team trying to take out one boss?

This is why public games go stale (The Sniper is more useful in public games because the offense is less organized and fluid. Let's also remember there is usually more than one Sniper.) because each team's offense meets in the yard with the intent of taking out the enemy Sniper. They deathmatch it up, but the Snipers are always in the background breaking any progress. It's a draw. Eventually, the field is reset, and the process repeats.

People get discouraged; they go defense. The other team does the same. The people who stay on offense are still unable on some minimum level to get past the Snipers. The defense only sees Scouts and Medics and the occasional other class that gets through. It isn't exciting for them killing Scouts and Medics over and over, there's no high point where an entire team rushes into the base and all hell breaks out. Nope, the defense gets bored and leaves. The offense gets bored of capping on no defense, they leave.

Sniper is an entire level of defense on his own. He is fucked up on so many levels. Why? Because of his weapon. His long range weapon allows him such influence because no influence happens upon him. No one can fight back, so he controls the fight. The game is dependent upon luck and not skill to get across the yard; his luck hitting you or your luck in him missing. That is the opposite of what FF is supposed to be. Luck is luck. Where's the skill?
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Old 01-22-2010, 02:09 PM   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VentuSag3
Bridget, you do realise that the term "overpowered" has nothing to with attack strength and in fact is exactly tied to how useful a certain aspect of any game is, right?
"Overpowered" has come to have different meanings over the years, yes. It can have everything to do with attack strength. Hell, I have heard people call the Pyro overpowered so many times because they died in under two or three seconds from one running O. Not because of how useful he is, or amazing at capping he is, but because of how strong his damage is. Take a game like CS when people first got used to the AWP. They did not have to be good to use that fucking thing. You shot someone in the fucking pinky and they died. "Overpowered" is all you heard for the longest time, solely based on the "attack strength" as I understand your use. No, I am not saying it is used to define attack strength alone. I am stating that it has referenced different things in different games. On that note, I do agree that the term should be more distinctly broken down in reference to this discussion.

If someone comes along and claims 1+1=3 then we already know (any and all arguments the person makes) based on this (will be irrational).

Or did you mean to say "If someone comes along and claims 1+1=3 then we already know, based on this, any and all arguments the person makes will be irrational."

Genuinely curious as these have two different implications, the latter saying he is simply an idiot and you can take nothing seriously from him and the former saying you can only take everything but his math seriously. I'll be reading your posts differently should you say the latter.


Quote:
Originally Posted by eomoyaff
Please close this thread? Really? This thread has more action than most, if not all, forums on the FF forums and you want it dead? Who cares if it happens to be a cycle? People have shit to say and they will say it 'til they are tired of arguing. THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE FINAL HERO.



Quote:
Bridget's SPOT ON FIVE PARAGRAPHS
Pretty much how all pubs go. Two or three of the people on offense will be eventually be found camping the battle elements, or more often than not changing to defense. Not understanding why people keep arguing against simple facts like these that define an issue. AMAZING STORY BRUV. Would read it again, A+++ fuk yer!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen
Ohhh, gotcha. One of those guys who gets called out, but instead sticks to his original, baseless insult. Awesome! Here is a hint: Just because you can link your feeble-minded intentions to something in your vastly open written statement, it does not mean it will be taken the same way by any or all other. This is why we learn to be clear and direct when defending a position, save you happen to be a great philosopher! You are too stupid for the latter. English lesson done.
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Old 01-22-2010, 06:04 PM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FEDOR View Post
Ohhh, gotcha. One of those guys who gets called out, but instead sticks to his original, baseless insult. Awesome! Here is a hint: Just because you can link your feeble-minded intentions to something in your vastly open written statement, it does not mean it will be taken the same way by any or all other. This is why we learn to be clear and direct when defending a position, save you happen to be a great philosopher! You are too stupid for the latter. English lesson done.
Really? Cause all I see is a door marked 'private'.
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Old 01-22-2010, 07:46 PM   #225
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also bridgets last 5 parapgraphs do not apply to all ctf maps, say 2fort, schtop, openfire, phantom etc. anything without a huge open yard. really the only time you see a pub go dvd is actually on arddvark, and you don't change a class because of one map, you change the map.
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Old 01-22-2010, 08:20 PM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKing View Post
Really? Cause all I see is a door marked 'private'.
Just lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SSCUJO View Post
also bridgets last 5 parapgraphs do not apply to all ctf maps, say 2fort, schtop, openfire, phantom etc. anything without a huge open yard. really the only time you see a pub go dvd is actually on arddvark, and you don't change a class because of one map, you change the map.
I have seen plenty of turtling, DvD, and whatever else you consider shitty pub play on those maps. It really is not as map-limited as you think. Aardvark just happens to be a prime example because it is, for whatever reason, an extremely popular map on pubs.
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Old 01-22-2010, 08:45 PM   #227
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You know, I used to get raged when King kills me, and i still kinda do, but in all honesty they are fine imo. Why? you ask, well, Im not retarded and i know how to bunnyhop and dodge the RED BEAMS THAT ARE BEING POINTED AT ME kinda ket me know i need to move or im going to die. But Im not saying i support snipers(they are bigger faggots than me). But just leave them alone and start flaming Pyro's again. Oh...and learn to play the game fags, dont make the game adjust for you just because your bad at using common sense, when it comes to going in the yard or when a fucking red beam is coming ever so closer to you.
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Old 01-23-2010, 12:11 AM   #228
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fucking take a chill pill, guys.
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Old 01-23-2010, 12:16 AM   #229
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They're all raged because Bridget is pushing their shit in so hard.
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Old 01-23-2010, 12:41 AM   #230
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This post is Re: Bridget's big post a few above this one. I'm too lazy to go back and quote it.
---------------

Sniper isn't overpowered. If it was overpowered, the game's balance would be shifted far towards the sniper in both pubs and "league" play. The sniper is annoying, yes, but not overpowered. The hitboxes being so broken along with the game's speed are the main counterbalance.

The sniper's main strength is against slow classes at range. The bigger the yard, and the slower the class, the harder it is for them to get across. The two main offensive classes (scout and medic) don't really have a problem with snipers because of conc grenades. Most snipers cannot consistently hit concers. There were only a few I knew of who could. For me, it depended on the day. Some days I had a biological aimbot and other times I couldn't hit crap. There were others who were/are better than me of course (like King).

You keep trying to focus on the sniper's unique features like radio tagging and call it overpowered. When you phrase it as "native wallhack," of course it sounds overpowered. When you add in the rest of the limitations it becomes a lot less powerful. It is still strong, but every class has a strong ability or two. Engineers have automated guns with aimbots. Scouts and Medics can fly across the entire map without taking damage. Woo.

You forget all the limitations the sniper has. The strong point of the sniper is against slow classes at range. You propose removing that strong point. What, exactly, is the sniper left with then? He's crap at close range. If anyone gets near a sniper it's basically game over for the sniper unless he's expecting it and has enough time/luck to aim a close range shot properly. All you have to do is bounce them once, or just shotty + nade them, and they're as good as dead.

Certain abilities may need durations tweaked, or perhaps a rework of the sniper be done so he's better at close range but subsequently weaker at longer range, but your entire stance reeks of someone who gets pissed in pubs after being shot in the head a few times. Actually, I do recall you going on sniper hunting missions almost every time I sniped against you. Removing the sniper, or completely crippling him, is not the solution to the problem that exists.

Frustration clouds your mind. Don't turn to the dark side!

Last edited by Agent Buckshot Moose; 01-23-2010 at 12:43 AM.
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Old 01-23-2010, 01:01 AM   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenghisTron View Post
If you have a hard time understanding Bridget's argument, I recommend you write the above quote on the nearest possible chalkboard 1,000 times. My goodness, how can this thread get so big, with so few people understanding this basic concept. Yet more people on the FF forums that lack basic reading comprehension...
Oh and the quote is;

Quote:
Power and usefulness are two different things.
.
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Old 01-23-2010, 01:49 AM   #232
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Wow, I am so tired of having to reinforce my previous posts day in and day out. If 546 maximum damage (273 body), a stackable movement negating ability, a native wallhack (I use this word, because, that's what it is!) and a hitscan rifle with a zoom which can be used at ranges other players can not fight at to kill players who can't fight back is not overpowered, then I really don't see what could be overpowered.

You seem to be making a mistake that others make when you point out that other classes have 'skills'. The Medic can infect, the Heavy can mow enemies down at close range, the Engineer can build a gun. The question to ask is: Are those problematic? What is the range of effectiveness? Oh, that's right! The range of effectiveness for nearly every weapon and item in this game besides the Sniper Rifle is at close to medium range. Huh! Isn't that the range where people can. . . Interact with other players? Defend themselves? Use their own skills? Play fairly? /sigh

You're absolutely right the Sniper is weak, but his strength makes up for his weakness a billion fold (which is the opposite of how things are supposed to work; weaknesses are supposed to affect strengths) What does it matter how weak you are physically when you'll be picking off any potential threats from across the map before they can damage you in self defense? Ha ha.

Mhm, Snipers pissed me off a great deal. However, my hatred isn't unjustified. I have my reasons and have explained them in this thread. You're right again! I did have to resort to wasting my time and a player slot camping you because the game comes with no hard counter to your broken class. What a shame.

Last edited by Bridget; 01-23-2010 at 01:50 AM.
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Old 01-23-2010, 03:11 AM   #233
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i would say 2fort battlements are medium range as are the battlements for several maps, all classes can fight and interact with the sniper on those maps. change arddvark and change other large yard maps to medium range 2fort style yards.
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Old 01-23-2010, 05:47 AM   #234
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So some of you may know me, and will obviously know I'm in support of the sniper. I read as many posts as i could, but honestly there's so many pages of long long posts, that i gave up on the 2nd or 3rd page simply because the arguement is just going in circles.

I can understand that the creator of this thread feels the way he does because in the classical game of ctf through tfc and tf, snipers were frowned upon in matches and such. But honestly, is everyone this upset over sniping in pubs? I understand that if people play pickups and matches they don't want snipers involved, that makes sense to me even if the sniper has use on the map it's usually frowned upon by many people, i get it. But this is just sniping in pubs, and as cujo has already reitterated over and over and over it's impossibly easy to dominate snipers if you take 2 seconds to go out of your way and take a different route, or air strafe.

I've never seen more complaining in any game than people in this community since counterstrike. I don't take it to heart, but all the whining is crazy. I assume most people as myself, are a bit older, in their 20's and such (obviously there are some younger), making the complaining even goofier.

I snipe most often when i pub in ff, but i've played scout/medic and soldier for years and years now competitively over different games. To sum it up, sniper isn't over powered, get up close and emp him, fire rockets long distance and he has to keep moving and can't shoot, or air strafe to evade and most times he'll miss. I literally don't understand all this whining, it baffles me

Don't create threads just because someone kills you over and over, go emp him till he quits
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Old 01-23-2010, 08:54 AM   #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget
...Not surprising, your arguments are the same as theirs. It suggests minor changes to the class that doesn't address what I set out to discuss

...unlike these desperation tactics everyone keeps pumping out that are mere workarounds for something broken. They're settled upon because they're the only viable options, and I'm saying they're shitty terrible options that are more of a hassle, burden, and waste of a time than a skillful counter that has you enjoying the game.

...The problem with all these suggestions to 'get good' is that none of these 'getgood' suggestions are valid. They're not legitimate tactics. They're workarounds to something that is unfair.
You know, SNIPER ASIDE, I've found this to be the reaction to almost every balance issue I've ever seen in FF. The only balance issue I can think of that didn't have this mentality and was actually addressed were the changes to the Hwguy's firing for 2.0. Pretty much everything else follows this formula more or less.

As for the sniper itself, I'm kind of neutral on it. I could leave it, or I think radical changes wouldn't hurt the game substantially. I do think it is a legitimate point however, that past a certain distance, the only real counter to a sniper is another sniper, which does take a lot of variety out of the gameplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FEDOR
Please close this thread? Really? This thread has more action than most, if not all, forums on the FF forums and you want it dead? Who cares if it happens to be a cycle? People have shit to say and they will say it 'til they are tired of arguing.
Just wait until Circuitous shows up, he lives for locking threads like these.

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Old 01-23-2010, 09:26 AM   #236
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Old 01-23-2010, 12:33 PM   #237
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LOL LOOK A GRAPH. OH MAN, THIS SURE IS SCIENTIFIC!

(The values are not relevant. They're not based on anything, and the curves were generated out of an approximation on how I view class effectiveness, how I view it objectively. I'm sure a lot of people would argue this is generally true, that these classes suck at range and become progressively better the closer they get, while the Sniper does not. He breaks the pattern. I want you to use the curves as a visual guide for understanding my point.)

It is evident, to me, that the other classes have to follow some pattern to becoming effective. You can argue that Pyro or Heavy outperform another class at close range, but they earn that ability and the other class' effectiveness is not that far off. Look at the graph as a whole. The idea and pattern is that you must earn your ability to fight back with some vigor. The Sniper comes right out of his base with the ability to fight at his maximum.

He doesn't have to earn anything. The Sniper exits his base with an advantage over the other classes. He doesn't have to progress to become effective. The only direction his curve takes is down, but given the inherent advantage he gets, he can prevent that from happening and prevent other classes from following their curve upward. In order to get the Sniper's effectiveness to drop, you have to increase your own effectiveness, which is suppressed by the Sniper's effectiveness. Do you get what I am saying?

This is a situational advantage, of course. The Sniper only has the advantage if he is given range. But, there's the problem! Every map designer introduces some distance between the bases. Almost every map has a travel time. No map has the bases door to door. The way maps are made is almost always beneficial to the Sniper. So, do we change maps? Fuck no! We change the Sniper.

Looking back at that graph (Influenced by my perception of how classes fare, which I believe to be approximate.) you should be able to visualize the point I made in previous posts. If a Medic and a Soldier are to exit the battlements on aardvark, they both follow a progression up until close range. You would expect the fight to be fair. It doesn't matter if the Soldier has an advantage over the medic at close range, because it's not that big of an advantage. The Medic is still effective on his own curve at that range to deal some damage back. He's effective enough to be able to determine the fight by his own skill instead of being reliant on luck or the disluck of another.

Any other class, you have to gain your advantage. The Sniper doesn't have to gain jack-shit. Step out of your base and you're already in perfect shape to kill every other class in the game. If I'm a Soldier, I have to traverse the map to get to my effective range. Meanwhile, Snipers exploiting their 'hold-my-hand-developers' advantage can leisure about and shoot me without a care in the world. This is not fair at all.

This is a problem for both the Sniper and the other classes. The other classes should not get dominated at range, and I would be willing to agree the Sniper should not get demolished at close range. The Sniper needs to be worked into a character that follows that graph. The only problem with that means ditching the perception of what makes a Sniper a Sniper. That means getting rid of the Sniper class. If we define the Sniper as powerful at range, then you're never going to get the same fair progression where he must earn his ability to fight back. If he has the range advantage, he has to earn little or nothing. I guess it means implementing a totally new class. Tough shit, I guess?

I have been a little one-sided, because I never played Sniper. If all the maps in Fortress Forever were made at close range, where exiting your base entered the enemy base (which is silly) which would in turn make the Sniper near useless, I would still be arguing (perhaps without the same motivation and reasoning, which has so far been influenced by my irritation) that the Sniper is in the wrong game at the core. He would get owned at close range, because he's in the wrong game. He owns at long range, because he's in the wrong game.

The concept of a Sniper does not belong in FF, because it separates the game in to maps where the Sniper owns and maps where the Sniper gets owned. There needs to be some consistency, where on every map, the Sniper can fight back and can defend himself with the same effectiveness and fairness as every other class in this game. If that means ditching the Sniper, so be it. I prefer game balance and fairness over semantic nonsense. Maybe, just maybe, BEING A SNIPER is the problem? Actually! Yeah! Yeah, it is. CASE CLOSED.

Last edited by Bridget; 01-23-2010 at 03:31 PM.
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Old 01-23-2010, 04:26 PM   #238
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Graph is wrong.

Sniper's easily still a 7 at close range.
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Old 01-23-2010, 07:03 PM   #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackout View Post
I read as many posts as i could, but honestly there's so many pages of long long posts, that i gave up on the 2nd or 3rd page simply because the arguement is just going in circles.
this...For the last like 5 pages, it's been the same thing said over and over and over again from the same people. Kinda makes me lol tbh.
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Old 01-23-2010, 07:30 PM   #240
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Whoever repeats themselves the most wins. (:
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