A review about overpowered Offense over Defense

[immortal]

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

That'd make it way to easy for the Defense, immo. I can reload just fine.

Solly's reloading is fine if you dont spam your shit.

OK, so if you can reload just fine, making it faster wouldn't change anything, right? and if it won't change anything how it would be too easy for the Defense? i didn't get that..

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

Demo's dont need to play more then 3 pipes at a flag point. They will take damage before they get to the flag. 3 should do the job just fine. Even 2 in most cases.

oh boy, you must be an awsome player. for real. 2 or 3 pipes at the flag is enough? yeah with autodet it would work perfectly.
and remember demos should throw pipes at the incoming offense players who get through front-line. so it's not just about pipeing the flag.

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

For everyone here that's played a pickup, can you really say that the offense overpowered the defense?.

I still think this all narrows down to the players skill. That determines the which side has more power.

Actually some of the players won't agree with the statement of an Overpowered Offense, but everyone agrees with the fact that it's much easier play offense. And some of them already stated that "anybody can do good on offense in FF". Go figure.

And ofc the more skilled team has more power!
But try to imagine a EVEN match with both teams equally skilled... O would be proportionally faster anyway!

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

And if you know there's a grenade coming towards you, set one up as well. Time how quick it takes a medic to get to your location, and sync that with the grenade time.

As a medic you have a huge advantage:
You know exactly how much time will take for you to get to the defensive player position and pretty much where he will be standing. This is enough to know when prime you grenade and throw it as soon as you get there.

As a defensive player(doesn't matter solly or HW) [against a decent offense] if you prime grenades without seeing the enemy you have a big chance of throwing them out of nowhere because you cannot predict 100% sure when the medics gonna go to your way. But as above, the opposite is true.



-------

the game is faster, ok good, i like that.
but it is unbalanced...
proportionally speaking the game is faster for offense not defense:
well, the speed of all game has been increased, but besides that offense have some advantages:
- jump pads;
- respawn closer to base exit for offense;

and defense some disadvantages
- respawn far from defending position;
- reloading time which does not correspond with the amount/speed of 'offense players per minute ratio';


--------

I'd love to see more people posting on here...
More opinion from the devs would be important for a proper discussion.

[VentuSag3]

Soldier needs NO buff. It is the best class in the game. If anything it's refire rate needs a nerf.

[Raynian]

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

For everyone here that's played a pickup, can you really say that the offense overpowered the defense?.

Yes.

[chilledsanity]

eomoyaff: Seeing as how I had a chance to play you recently in a CTF pub and me, as a lone soldier, apparently was overwhelming your team (prior to me joining it was nothing but scouts on O) to the point where everyone on D was complaining about how difficult the game had become, I'm afraid I have to call bullshit on your claims. The teams were even, all I was doing was playing an O solly as competently as I could; trying to break up D and provide support for the scouts. I recorded a demo too if anyone wants to see what happened. If D was truly balanced, my tactics would not have been a problem.

It is not balanced however, so unless you consider "skill" complaining for the enemy to switch to a lighter class, I think you're in denial of the problem, having witnessed your actions firsthand.

I do realize pickups are a completely different animal from pubs however. Again, I can't comment on the balance for that. At this point I doubt I'll change your mind on anything, just remember that a lot of the game exists outside of pickups and what amounts to balance there does not necessarily carry over to the rest of the game.

[xks]

The problem, as I've already outlined, is with Grenades. How fast they can be replenished and used in attack compared to how fast they can be replenished and used in defence.

That's putting aside the fact that the usage of Grenades is already heavily biased to the aggressor.

I already explained this well enough in my previous post though.

[Raynian]

Most maps have an average of at least 7 caps per round, when the teams are balanced. Some go up to 10. Only some - like reloaded - often see 3 per side.

Increase the sshotty/shotty damages. Not much, just about ten to twenty percent. And for fuck's sake, fix jump pads or make concs detrimental to the offense. At least one of those.

[s0undch4s3r]

In Dustbowl, I notice that Offense always rapes the Defense in FF.
Possibly because it's too easy to take out the SG's in FF?
Possibly because FF does not have Teleport (which I like)?

In TFC and TF2's Dustbowl it's not that easy for Offense.

[chilledsanity]

xks: I've never thought about grenades substantially in terms of affecting the balance (I'm not denying it though), however consider how slanted things are in some AvD maps where neither side has access to grenades, I think it's significantly more than JUST that.

s0undch4s3r: I think sg's are a huge part of why defense is weaker. As for teleport, I played TFC a LOT before they ever added it to the game. For dustbowl especially that would help offense much more than defense. While both sides have to run to the front line, it's in D's interest to run past the cap to constantly survey the area for anyone who may have slipped by.

[xks]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

xks: I've never thought about grenades substantially in terms of affecting the balance (I'm not denying it though), however consider how slanted things are in some AvD maps where neither side has access to grenades, I think it's significantly more than JUST that.

It's not just about grenades, it's about restocking in general (health/armour/ammo/grens).

Attackers can do all of it faster than defenders can in most cases and for the attacking players, it's nothing out of the ordinary, they just continue to do what they do. Attack, die, full health/armour, fresh set of grens and on they go.

Defenders are limited by whatever is available on the map, it's not the same for the offence.

I highlighted grenades because they are the biggest game changing item in FF but they also come under restocking I agree.

AvD maps don't suffer in the same way because it's almost in everyones interest to die in order to restock as the games are so spammy with limited restocking resources. Of course dying still gives a bigger disadvantage to the defenders, but they are at a disadvantage anyway with the nature of AvD gameplay.

There is certainly more to consider than Grenades (or restocking) and speed, but they are the two key factors in the offensive bias of the game. Speed makes Grenades and restocking a problem, when the advantage should be a lot less (although still an advantage) for the sake of balance and a fun game.

[AfterShock]

Attacking in AvD is too easy in FF. I don't think anyone can argue that. 1 guy jumping over everyone onto the cap point isn't the best mechanic in the world. Having 1 experienced jumper on the offense team breaks the game for everyone else, the rest of his team is largely irrelevant.

That said, i believe the damage slowdown helps, stopping a soldier rocket+grenjump over the entire defense if you shoot him while he's in the air.

Yes HWs are weaker than TFC, leagues had to ban use of more than 1 HW because it was overpowered. That said the HW in FF is more of an air-stopping machine rather than a pure damage dealer now the damage slowdown is working.

[eomoyaff]

@Chille

Alright, it's pretty much obvious that EVERY PUB GAME is going to be unbalanced.. Testing this discussion in a pub game is highly inaccurate and the data received is useless. The only way you're really going to tell what classes are higher powered then others is to test there full functional abilities in a zone without interruption before the point of reaching that zone.

Also playing an Offensive Soldier is frowned upon and causes a major struggle for the defense. Mostly, Soldier is considered a defensive class unless it's with AvD maps. I believe the class alone is overpowered but needs to be for competitive reasons. But for AvD they do most of the capping in every map based off what I've seen and what I've done.

-----
@ immo

OK, so if you can reload just fine, making it faster wouldn't change anything, right? and if it won't change anything how it would be too easy for the Defense? i didn't get that..

You don't get it? lol. I'm sure people like Cake, Spoon, Killu, and the rest get it. If you're playing a soldier and have to use up all of your rockets and shells to kill the enemy, then clearly that shows a lack of skill. I'm just sayin..

oh boy, you must be an awesome player. for real. 2 or 3 pipes at the flag is enough? yeah with autodet it would work perfectly.
and remember demos should throw pipes at the incoming offense players who get through front-line. so it's not just about pipeing the flag.

It is enough. To take in consideration that a scout is moving into the flag from, he's going to take damage prior to reaching the flag. 3 is already going to take nearly all of his hp away. You factor in SG damage, rocket damage, and ac shells, he's gunna die. Plus laying three is quick and easy, and allows for reloading and more time to focus on direction of attacks. Also, you're sarcasm is humorous.

As for everything else, I don't need to explain.

[Raynian]

Originally Posted by AfterShock

That said the HW in FF is more of an air-stopping machine rather than a pure damage dealer now the damage slowdown is working.

Ha ha, no. His cone of fire is awful, he'd barely hit a soldier until he's on the cap point.

HWs suck.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Aftershock

Yes HWs are weaker than TFC, leagues had to ban use of more than 1 HW because it was overpowered. That said the HW in FF is more of an air-stopping machine rather than a pure damage dealer now the damage slowdown is working.

While the hwguy is only part of the puzzle, it sounds like that in balancing for league play, it's wrecked balance for AvD. What's the bigger priority for FF? League play or AvD? You're making it sound like it's coming down to an "either-or" situation. An extra rule may have been bothersome for TFC, but at least AvD was able to co-exist in harmony then.

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

Alright, it's pretty much obvious that EVERY PUB GAME is going to be unbalanced.. Testing this discussion in a pub game is highly inaccurate and the data received is useless. The only way you're really going to tell what classes are higher powered then others is to test there full functional abilities in a zone without interruption before the point of reaching that zone.

Well the conundrum here is that AvD pretty much doesn't exist outside of pub play, so unless the devs want to abandon the mode entirely, there needs to be more balance for that kind of pub environment. If you honestly think balance arguments are useless when it comes to pub AvD, I think you don't have enough of an understanding as to how it works. I'm going in circles now with what I've said, but when you look at the course of many games and see round times collapse and see obvious points where D is failing, it's very easy to make balance changes when the problem is as extreme as it is. Anyway, as long as we're in agreement that pub play (specifically AvD) is kind of screwed balance-wise, I'm not really arguing with you.

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

Also playing an Offensive Soldier is frowned upon and causes a major struggle for the defense. Mostly, Soldier is considered a defensive class unless it's with AvD maps. I believe the class alone is overpowered but needs to be for competitive reasons. But for AvD they do most of the capping in every map based off what I've seen and what I've done.

In TFC I think the same team would have been able to fend off a single soldier. I personally think solly is fine for FF, but several other classes are underpowered. Anyway, I wasn't trying to wreck the game so much as prove the point that outside of pickups, FF balance really does have problems. Again, this is the main statement of yours I had a problem with:

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

There is no problem with the offense. Everything is how it should be.

As for AvD, solly is a good all-rounder, but I'd say they hardly do "most of the capping." Many classes are good for this role now. Some are better than others for the situation. Demoman is best for long distances, scouts and medics are good for overwhelming speed, pyros are great for vertical obstacles, spies are good for getting past the enemy, soldier is good as a D breaker, etc. In fact in AvD, I'd say all classes are good for capping except for sniper, hwguy, and engineer. When D is very heavy, I tend to get the most caps as spy personally. (I usually switch to that class JUST to cap).

[immortal]

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

@ immo

You don't get it? lol. I'm sure people like Cake, Spoon, Killu, and the rest get it. If you're playing a soldier and have to use up all of your rockets and shells to kill the enemy, then clearly that shows a lack of skill. I'm just sayin..

what's up to cake, spoon and killu?

who said you just deal with only 1 enemy at time?
I don't think you ever played a front-line position against a decent offense before. Otherwise you would know that dealing with more than 1 enemy at time is common. As also is running out of ammo on your weapons and not having enough time to reload them between offense rushes.

[Crazycarl]

We've been testing a lot of grenades and other tools for D classes that allow them to stop or slow the offense, rather than relying on spamming explosives.

The problem(s) with IvD maps is:
-wide open spaces, along with jumppads and gren jumping
-engies can't get metal fast enough to build
-Heavy classes andn snipers can run O because the spawns are closer
-D has no time to reset after a cap

[eomoyaff]

Originally Posted by immortal

what's up to cake, spoon and killu?

who said you just deal with only 1 enemy at time?
I don't think you ever played a front-line position against a decent offense before. Otherwise you would know that dealing with more than 1 enemy at time is common. As also is running out of ammo on your weapons and not having enough time to reload them between offense rushes.

I've played all positions. and I also know that i Don't waste my ammo. If I see a shot I take it. If I don't kill them, and they pass me up, it's officially in the hands of the rest of the D. All I know is that I did damage to whatever passed me, thus giving the rest of the defense an easier kill. I refuse to spam my rockets at something coming at me around 1200-1800 speed. Anything less and i'll try and get another rocket off. But I will admit that I do hit 0 on my rockets every once and a while, and sometimes the enemy does get by during that time. As far as who I've played against, I've had spoon and killu come at me numerous times in a lot of different pickup games. That's some hard shit to deal with. lol.


As for what Carl Said. The bags could use a little more in them to make the sg's go up faster. and it does take a bit for the d to reset. Normally what I'm use to doing is if the flag is at front entrance, I ask for 2 to stay back for the relay. usually it's an engi and an hw. To get an early build on an Sg while the hw protects the engi's objective. Pretty good shit though.

[Raynian]

You can run right up to an SG as a medic. There's no SG push. That's the main problem with SGs.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Raynian

You can run right up to an SG as a medic. There's no SG push. That's the main problem with SGs.

Ah careful, you'll get people flaming you as to how much it's improved! Remember, it's been changed from light-sneeze-weak to now the much improved limp-wristed-slap-weak! I'm sure changes are being worked on for the next version of FF to achieve that perfect balance of wet-paper-bag-weak.

[immortal]

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

... I refuse to spam my rockets at something coming at me around 1200-1800 speed...

It's pretty hard to see any class moving faster than 1200 tbh...

btw i think you are just in denial.. I'm saying what commonly DOES happen in matches, not just with me. if you grab some demos or spec a few matches you gonna get it.
All you have done so far is talking about you, what you can do, the way you play, and how it's fine for you. Which i can't really understand because you can't deal one laggy Medic when playing Soldier. Sorry to say that this way, but it's the truth.

[Puff Boy]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Bridget: I'm in total agreement on your assessment after checking out TFC again. I can answer why the sg stays alive longer in TFC:

-more sg push

-offense units are slower, so there's more exposure time

-better tracking (in some ways, this is a complex issue how it works in FF)

-I believe more damage is dealt (haven't confirmed in a while)

-Sg's block splash damage, so an engineer can stand behind his sg and bang away, keep it up under fire. In FF you not only take damage, but you get knocked back, preventing you from being close enough to repair it.

-No sabotage risk (though this isn't an issue for the attentive anyway)


What's ironic is that in TFC, sentries can be damaged VERY fast. Two rockets will take out a lvl. 3 sentry. A medic/scout can bring an unattended sg down in seconds. But the items above all add up to a maintained sg being able to hold its own in a way that is impossible in FF.


Born_In_Xixax: While it's definitely an offender, it's not JUST the jump pad, it's several factors. For example, Avanti is one map where the jump pad doesn't do wonders for offense, but the holds are often very brief.

I would agree about you changing the maps, except that I don't consider the classes balanced. It still stands that over time offense has received many new abilities and defense has received almost none. This very thread seemed to start off focused on balance for CTF, not AvD, suggesting that this is a problem across the board.

I agree that the Guns should protect Engi's from splash damage. I never realized that that was why it is so much harder to keep my gun alive when soldiers or Demo's are attacking me than in TFC.

The guns need more push and should be a bit harder for Scouts & Medics to run up to.

The guns need better tracking and to do more damage when players conc in and out.

Maps need to change based on 2.41. Maps without grenade packs really stink for Engi's now. I have a suicide bind to get more grenades. It's faster than runing to some spawns or waiting to get killed to get more grenades.