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Old 02-09-2010, 08:02 AM   #401
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The argument is circular because you're a dolt. Here's why.

The argument has been about the Sniper's long range capabilities. He is the only class in the game where his effectiveness is at longer ranges, while the other classes are restricted to shorter ranges. Given the immediate distances between bases in the way maps are created in Fortress Forever, the Sniper's advantage is almost immediate. The other nine classes follow a risk and reward pattern where the closer they get to the enemy, the more risk they take and the more damage they can deal. The argument has been on ranged weapons and ranged capabilities and so on.

The King misses this argument or just blatantly creates a straw-man argument where he believes we are calling the Sniper a black sheep simply because he is different. He supports his straw-man argument with messages like: "The Spy is the only class who can cloak." or "The Medic is the only class that can infect." and so on and so forth. The King misses the point that the abilities of the Spy's cloak or the Medic's infection, however broken for other reasons and in another contexts, are fine by their range of effectiveness -- the standard of this thread. These abilities are performed at a range where the potential to interact is available and at the same range that the other classes may capitalize on their own abilities and strengths.

People point out that this is like comparing apples to oranges. (That is a figure of speech not a literal comparison. Don't nitpick.) People inform TheKing that he is arguing from his own misunderstanding. People elaborate that the Sniper is different because he is a problem and not a problem because he is different. We point out that classes are expected to be different, with minor advantages and disadvantages, with strength and weaknesses. These aspects become balanced and fine-tuned to work at a range consistent among all the classes where they can be both capitalized on by the user or countered by the enemy with the same level of opportunity and potential. TheKing can not comprehend this, so he returns to his straw-man argument, which returns us here and back, forever and forever, thus the circular argument.

/thread

Feel free to criticize the way I write and deem it 'pseudo-intellectual'. This is a great cover-up for not having an argument of your own nor the evidence that you claim has disproven my position time and time again. <3
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Old 02-09-2010, 09:17 AM   #402
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hey, King.



no one gives a shit.
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Old 02-09-2010, 10:47 AM   #403
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Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
I like the part where you say 'the evidence' without actually supplying it.
Ze posted overall stats from his server that showed no significant advantage of Snipers and that in fact soldiers and engies were much more useful. Go back a few pages if you missed it.

I and many others have repeatedly pointed out to the fact that Sniper is not effective in high level play. He gets permaconced or pushed through every single time.

More than 75% of the Top 25 players in Talos as I type this main Soldier. Only 2 of them main Sniper, neither of whom are in the #1 slot, or even #2. ( both go to a Soldier main ) http://talos.hlstatsx.com/

The Top 5 Players in NT server all main Engie or Solly.
http://games.rap3d.net/hlstats.php?mode=players&game=ff

Although the OT server has no HLstats, It does list their top 25 ( http://www.gametracker.com/server_in...6/top_players/ ) I know most of those names. Only 2 of them ever snipe seriously. The others all either play Solly, Scout, or Pyro.

None of the players in recent matches where players were allowed to use Sniper ( excluding the Sniper League, obviously ) used Sniper in FF.Pickup. None.
http://www.ffpickup.com/league/

Everything I have just stated could have been easily looked up by anyone.

If you ask this again, I will assume that you are just like the ID proponent in the video I posted earlier and are incapable of recognizing evidence.

Last edited by VentuSag3; 02-09-2010 at 10:52 AM.
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Old 02-09-2010, 11:05 AM   #404
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Alright, so the Sniper isn't as useful as other classes.
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Old 02-09-2010, 11:37 AM   #405
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I care about your facts and submit to your clear knowledge.

But not really.
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Old 02-09-2010, 10:51 PM   #406
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Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
Feel free to criticize the way I write and deem it 'pseudo-intellectual'. This is a great cover-up for not having an argument of your own nor the evidence that you claim has disproven my position time and time again. <3
Aww that's cute considering you're constantly misusing the term 'straw-man'.

I am not misrepresenting your argument, but providing examples of other classes that exhibit similar advantages in certain scenarios by utilizing unique abilities that you wouldn't consider 'broken'. Having an advantage over range is not a broken mechanic.

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no one gives a shit.
Hey, Raynian, this thread is 20+ pages long and full of long-winded posts. If my post was too long for you then wtf are you doing still reading this?
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Old 02-09-2010, 11:21 PM   #407
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TheKing: one thing you do need to do is stop counter arguing by just turning everyone's arguments on their heads. doing it with bridget i assumed you were just joking around, but i'm yet to see you actually justify anything without doing the whole spy/engy/medic analogy thing.

not only is it annoying, it doesnt help us understand your point of view. so far all i can gather is that you're an incredibly stubborn person that only plays sniper.
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Old 02-09-2010, 11:25 PM   #408
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Alright, so the Sniper isn't as useful as other classes.
Oh my god, has something sensible finally penetrated your head.
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Old 02-09-2010, 11:52 PM   #409
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TheKing: one thing you do need to do is stop counter arguing by just turning everyone's arguments on their heads. doing it with bridget i assumed you were just joking around, but i'm yet to see you actually justify anything without doing the whole spy/engy/medic analogy thing.
That's my argument, that anything you say about the sniper can be said about other classes. 'Fitting' is a very subjective thing, I can only argue that by your own definition, many other classes don't 'fit' either (you're picking on the sniper). It's not to be annoying, but until you give me an example of exactly why the sniper doesn't fit that can't be applied to other classes that you think do 'fit' - you can't objectively say that the sniper doesn't fit.

If certain individuals try to pretend that they've reached some objective conclusion (which apparently is a big part of the arguments of certain people) then I'll continue to shoot them down. If they want to (finally) admit that this whole argument is very subjective and we simply disagree instead of just repeating their bad arguments, then we can definitely move on from there.

I feel that by nurfing the sniper you're eliminating an important part of the game and the direction that you're taking is to try to bring all of the classes closer together by removing some of the unique characteristics of classes (in these forums there have RECENTLY been arguments about the spy, medic, hw, pyro and removing some of the more unique qualities of each). I don't want to play a watered down version of TF where there is no long-distance game, no medic infection, no cloaked (or feigning) spies. All of these characteristics give a class a unique advantage in situations (but every class has an advantage in particular situations), and that's FINE. Hell, that's more than fine. I bore quickly of DM-only mulch-style play and don't want to play a game where all of the classes conform to this style of fighting - TF is about a wide variety of classes that each have particular advantages and DON'T NEED to be brought into the same group.

The sniper is not only my personal favorite class, but also a very important part of what TF is to me (not because it's been around forever, but because it provides an extra form of variety that is crucially important to the game). A handful of people (and these forums DON'T in any way make up a fair sample of the FF community at all) come in and bitch about the sniper (and many disagree). A lot of people bitch about half of the classes in the game (literally). IMO all of these classes 'fit' perfectly. Tweeking them a bit is cool, but the goal SHOULD NOT be to bring the abilities of the classes closer together. You're going in the wrong direction - please continue to make more unique classes instead of taking them away or making them conform to some uniform DM playstyle.

Last edited by TheKing; 02-10-2010 at 12:09 AM.
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Old 02-10-2010, 12:08 AM   #410
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its been said many times before, the range/damage combination. yes it makes a sniper what it is, but as has been pointed out more recently in this thread, snipers in real life (and yes spies too if you like) are designed to be at an unfair advantage, where the enemy cannot fight back. unlike real life however, said sniper is respawned and back in position in mere seconds where killed, as opposed to whatever fate the enemy got back at the sniper in.

with cloak, you can see it if you look hard enough. with infection, you're given a grace period to find a medic. with snipers in the yard, you're suddenly subjected to a brutal game of gauntlet, where you have little chance of fighting back.

lets take a new example, ff_well. the midmap is huge. there is no easy alternative route. there is little cover bar the middle bunker. the snipers have a plethora of relatively safe places to take aim from. yes, a lot of this is down to map design, but if we stuck a bunch of trees up it'd ruin pretty much every other major aspect of gameplay (grenade tossing, movement etc)

so please, without merely turning what i just said on its head, can you provide me with how you feel towards that.
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Old 02-10-2010, 12:34 AM   #411
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Tweeking them a bit is cool, but the goal SHOULD NOT be to bring the abilities of the classes closer together. You're going in the wrong direction - please continue to make more unique classes instead of taking them away or making them conform to some uniform DM playstyle.
I think this is an interesting point and one that requires far more justification on your end. Why does removing something like long range and cloak mean that the classes are less unique (assuming the mechanics aren't just removed, but replaced or revamped; or even more drastically, the class is redone completely)? Are you saying that no possible combination of mechanics exist that could lead to uniqueness without using some or all of the current mechanics (long range, for example) in that combination?

I don't see how that could be the case.
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Old 02-10-2010, 12:45 AM   #412
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What you say is fair, and sniper has a storied tradition in TF games I'd hate to lose. However, I think the consensus in this thread - which resonates well with me, a very longtime player of TF games - is that playing against a good sniper just isn't very much fun.

In fact, playing against a superb sniper is enormously frustrating. Now, you might say that running offense against a superb soldier or demoman or hwguy is also frustrating - but IMHO (and it appears many agree) there is a real qualitative difference in the nature of the frustration. Mushy outlined some of the psychological reasons for this - lack of a sense of engagement, maybe, being the summary - but the result is that getting repeatedly sniped walking out of your base is FAR less fun than getting killed repeatedly by a rocket in the flag room, where you are at least directly fighting the soldier.

No offense really to the snipers. I've been grand friends in the past with some of the best snipers in TFC (Paul_Bunyan, Arod), and while quirky as hell, they were damned nice guys who loved the game. Sniping at the highest level takes raw talent, a well tuned PC and mouse, years of practice, and a zen-like concentration I don't really possess.

But...once you reach a certain level (and I would submit TK is pretty much there,) the effect of such a sniper is INDISTINGUISHABLE from an aim bot for the opposition. Playing against an aim bot is the exact opposite of fun.

As far as removing or 'totally nerfing' the sniper: I think that's not the right approach. However, no one in this thread has argued that the sniper is perfect, or anything less, really, than one-dimensional. I think discussing ways to lessen the annoyance factor, and increase the flexibility/playability of the sniper is the way to go.

--------------

A random suggestion: add a 'wind+gravity' factor. I.e. when scoped, show a small windsock HUD animation with a random, changing wind direction/speed, and when the shot is fired, calculate an appropriate 'gravity drop' depending on distance. Maybe you could get away with this as still hitscan with fudged aim. Basically all this does it make it quite a bit harder to hit at long/extreme range, so the overall average damage of the sniper class effectively decreases with increasing distance.

Last edited by Born_In_Xixax; 02-10-2010 at 12:52 AM.
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Old 02-10-2010, 01:02 AM   #413
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gravity i'm cool with. wind i'm not, especially if it's random. that's one thing that we left out wherever possible by design, and that's random chance.

i'm interested to toy with the possibility of a new 'ballistic' hitscan call that has constant external forces applied to it, and a definite velocity. perhaps a series of short hitscan traces could be top-to-tailed in an arc shape?
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Old 02-10-2010, 07:45 AM   #414
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the problem with something like gravity or whatever is that it doesn't really solve much. Yes it's a bit harder for snipers to snipe...but eventually they will master it and it will be just as frustrating to play against them. The key, I think, is interaction. With sniper, and to a degree the spy, there is not interaction and therefor the "battle" or fight simply isn't fun for anyone. Which is why I lean toward just removing the sniper from all maps except hunted or hide'n'seek styles.
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Old 02-10-2010, 07:55 AM   #415
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This thread in a nutshell, act I:

Everyone but snipers: man, snipers are fucking lame. Let's nerf them.
Snipers: but nerfing sucks! boohoo they're just a NICHE! they're not overpowered, just misunderstood!
Everyone: here's about five different reasons and explanations why they don't fit, are overpowered at what they do, and why they're not fun.
Snipers: but it takes skill to be a sniper! newbs suck! don't nerf all the snipers!
Everyone: that is a piss poor argument, here's a deconstruction of it. devs, please still nerf them.
TheKing: NOOO it takes super skill to be a sniper! look how good I am I am totally a pro!
Everyone: Sure, you're good, doesn't mean the class works well.
TheKing: *FAPFAPFAPFAP* UHHHN I AM SO GOOD oh by the way nobody else is as good as me, CLEARLY you are just basing it on me (FAPFAPFAP) so plzzzzzz dun nerf
Everyone: okay seriously what
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Old 02-10-2010, 08:06 AM   #416
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but until you give me an example of exactly why the sniper doesn't fit that can't be applied to other classes that you think do 'fit' - you can't objectively say that the sniper doesn't fit.
Range of Effectiveness.

Every other class adheres to a consistent (among the classes) range of effectiveness. No matter their advantages nor disadvantages, their strengths nor weaknesses, they work at the same general range. It doesn't matter (in this thread, in this context, with this standard) that the Spy's cloak is broken nor that the Medic's infection may be a little irritating. Hell, it doesn't even matter if I think the Sniper is overpowered. Those are problems for different contexts and discussions, because they are not at all relevant to the standard of this conversation.

/thread
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Old 02-10-2010, 08:11 AM   #417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynian View Post
This thread in a nutshell, act I:
LMFAO

it's funny b/c it's pretty much true too!
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:14 AM   #418
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Range of Effectiveness
But why is it important that range of effectiveness be similar across all classes? Why is a longer range of effectiveness "off-limits" in terms of class advantages?

King has a good point, and it's hard (for me) to get around. We can say something like interactivity is important to have for all mechanics, or something about risk being necessary for reward, but at that point it basically comes down to a matter of opinion, as far as I can tell.

However, that may not be a bad thing. As long as we recognize why long range doesn't "fit" in FF, it might be something we can declare "off-limits" for all future (and present) mechanics. It might seem an arbitrary line to draw, but it might also be a step towards making the game more fun overall (sum total of fun, let's say; the most fun for the most people) while also making sure we never take a step backwards in that regard. Something like interactive mechanics/combat being good (about as objective as multiplayer game design can get, I think) could act as part of an FF measuring stick.

In line with my last post, I think FF can rework/remake mechanics to be within any parameters we deem worthy while maintaining the uniqueness and situational advantages of individual classes. The uniqueness might not be able to be of the same type, but it will still be unique.
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Old 02-10-2010, 10:48 AM   #419
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I'm just going to cut away all of my post and summarize it into the following:

Ignoring the Sniper, the other classes play at close range. When you move close to a target to engage him, you pass the ability to interact onto him as well. The timing is almost perfect. However, when the Sniper gains his ability to interact with you, then you don't necessarily gain the ability to interact with him. You get and you give. The Sniper doesn't always follow this pattern.

In addition to giving the ability to interact while gaining the ability to interact (being fair and playing a fair class, aha.) you sacrifice your safety. It's not always about gaining the ability to interact or damage people. There's a 'get and give' system with just abilities too. That's why the Spy's cloak is okay with this standard, because he gets (fully invisible, safety) but he gives or better worded in his case: he sacrifices. (can't shoot, can't do anything, movement is limited, etc) What does Sniper sacrifice or lose or give for his amazingly overpowered benefits? Next to nothing.

Let me also point out that because the other classes have this restriction to close range, that long range by default becomes the safety zone. You get close to fight. You fall back to be safe. The Sniper stomps out any form of a safe zone. Where are you gonna go against a Sniper? Run backwards deeper into range? He can still interact with you. Run toward him? He can still interact with you. The only safety zone here is cowering in your base like a bitch. Not fun at all.

The safety zone (SZ) is relative. When fighting a close range class, the SZ is long distance. When fighting a long range class, there is no SZ. The Sniper fights from the SZ of the rest of the classes. The close range classes can never fight from a SZ because against a long range class. . . there isn't one. As you said, how can you avoid a long range situation like you can a close range one? Spoiler: you can't.

When the Sniper gains the ability to interact with another player (across the map) the ability to interact is not in turn given to his target. This is because the Sniper is an exception to range consistency. He gains but he doesn't give anything. He makes no sacrifice for his gains either. Nonewhatsoever. Hey, he's weak at close range, but he can still insta-gib you there and deal the same potential damage he could when you were at long range.

Pros outweigh cons yet again! HA HA! The range consistency has been leveling the playing field 'behind the scenes' whether intentionally or not and whether you know it or not by appealing to the idea of sacrificing something to gain something. You more you sacrifice, the more you gain. It's proportionate. The only difference is what you gain. It might come in handy where what you sacrificed might not have.

I've edited this post like 20 times now. I'm done.

Last edited by Bridget; 02-10-2010 at 11:52 AM.
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Old 02-10-2010, 01:46 PM   #420
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enugh pseudos... Regardless of potatos, longrange effectiveness or other quasimetaphysical questions, the sniper is not interacting one bit (in the maps where it's a problem, in some maps it's not rly a problem because its "naturally nerfed", but that leaves out almost every ctfmap), and in many ways it feels like that autogun that kills you when you enter someone else's spawnarea, only that this ones out in the open. You don't really care about killing it, because its not even part of the gameplay (in most maps); for all you know the thing standing there could just be a bot. However you soon become so damn frustrated that you quickly just have but one objective: make the fucker bleed. Unfortunately that doesn't work well either because snipers generelly stand just outside of their own spawnarea.

If one were to program a robot to play FF (similar to how each class actually is played), which class would be easiest? Obviously sniper. All you would need is to "tell it" to stand just beside the spawnarea on the battlements and snipe enemies. Whenever someone gets close you run into resup and waits till the enemy has gotten tired of waiting and disappears (or gets killed by the snipers BFF: the spawnautogun), and out you go again.
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