Fortress Forever

Go Back   Fortress Forever > Community > General Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-22-2010, 11:00 PM   #101
squeek.
Stuff Do-er
Lua Team
Wiki Team
Fortress Forever Staff
 
squeek.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Northern California
Class/Position: Rallygun Shooter
Gametype: Conc tag (you just wait)
Affiliations: Mustache Brigade
Posts Rated Helpful 352 Times
Send a message via AIM to squeek.
Not sure what moosh means. The concept of training isn't new, but that version is relatively new and nearly complete. Not totally sure if it'll get into 2.42, but it might.
__________________
#FF.Pickup ¤ Fortress-Forever pickups

My Non-official Maps
Released FF_DM_Squeek - FF_2Mesa3_Classic - FF_Siege_Classic
Beta FF_Myth - FF_Redlight_Greenlight

Sick of the people on the internet, always moanin'. They just moan.
- Karl Pilkington
squeek. is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 11-23-2010, 12:40 AM   #102
Crazycarl
D&A Member
Wiki Team
Fortress Forever Staff
 
Crazycarl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 31 Times
I wonder what lasergre means.
Crazycarl is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 11-23-2010, 12:58 AM   #103
Ricey
UI Designer
Front-End Developer
Fortress Forever Staff
 
Ricey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Winter Park, FL
Class/Position: D Eng
Gametype: CTF 9v9
Affiliations: .gr , smr
Posts Rated Helpful 46 Times
Lasergre is a salad Carl...

Rum + Rice = bad typing.. took me too long to type that lol
__________________
Support FF:
Maps : Haste |Scrummage |Mulch_Trench
Voltage | Exchange Classic | Fortsake
ricecakes: I demand SGs get a buff
squeek.: buy it a gym membership


'I have an eye for design' - Kube 2014
Ricey is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 11-23-2010, 01:32 AM   #104
chilledsanity
D&A Member
 
chilledsanity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Gametype: AvD, I/D, waterpolo, hunted
Posts Rated Helpful 6 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget
I realize it's not a simple balance change. If that's the case, though, why do you see just increasing push values and damage values as an option for 2.42? If it were that easy, why didn't you do that long ago?
Well as squeek made it sound from another thread, different people were in charge then, the same ones that made it so weak in the first place. So I think the problem is the wrong people were in charge at that time. I'm not sure when the changing of the guard occurred.

Also until they come up with a magic reworking of the class, for the love of god, don't knock the dev team for proposing to increase push more on the sg. It needs it desperately and it's the single-fastest solution to improving D balance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by squeek
We didn't change it in 2.41 because we buffed it in 2.4.

Steamrolling through problems is fine and dandy, but I think it should be obvious at this point that the SG is not all that great at being steamrolled.
Actually the sg is very good at getting steamrolled in-game! As for steamrolling problems, I can see where that would take a while. 2.41 came out damn fast after 2.4, so I can understand if you hadn't gotten to it yet. As for "buffing" it, while that's technically true, just remember that the current "buffed" sg is still the-second weakest sg in all of Fortress history. I'm looking forward to more of a buff for 2.42.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GenghisTron
Someone who is devoted to playing the game in it's current state, and thus playing everyday, is someone who will be biased and will easily overlook the faults of the game. Someone who LIKES the game and the community, but finds the game needing massive changes to make it playable, or a new direction in the beta/dev process has a completely valid opinion.
This is absolutely true. In 1.0 I noticed some small areas I thought needed help, in 2.0 I saw much bigger areas that needed attention. By the time we got to 2.3 I was LONGING for 2.0 values on a lot of things because they looked positively gold compared to what I currently had. It's easy to lose perspective the more something becomes "normal." I think it wouldn't hurt for beta testers or devs to periodically schedule a game of TFC every now and then, just to get a bearing on what the game used to be like. Playing a couple rounds of TFC then going straight to FF I think really helps accentuates the differences between the two games and whether or not they're good ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CHURCHMOUTH
Chef and i were discussing the sentry gun problem (or lack thereof) yesterday while waiting for people to start joining the beta server.. He had a very interesting idea in my opinion. We aren't even sure if this is doable or not but he said why couldn't we just use .lua somehow to make the sentry gun push and damage more powerful or less powerful for an avd game versus a ctf game? perhaps we could have a sitdown with chilled sanity about what he thinks needs done to make the sentry gun more efficient in an avd game, and have a sitdown with say someone like (any ctf pubber) on what they think needs done for sentry gun in a CTF game.. just an idea and i thought it was a good one. once again im pretty lost when it comes to what all lua is capable of but from what i understand you can do almost anything using lua. maybe fortress forever needs 2 different style sentry guns to fix the problems (i dont think this is needed, but it seems enough people do) just an idea dont jump me bridget please!!!
This idea's been shot down a ton of times, though I'm still in favor of it. As for push, I don't have magic numbers I think will work, though I think I could find out with enough testing. The key thing is that if you have the flag and are running towards the cap, the sg needs to STOP you as soon as it has a lock, not start firing on you and let you keep progressing for 5-6 seconds while you continue running towards the cap. As for damage, I could be mistaken, but I think that's less important than shoving your ass back away from the objective. I would let someone else who has very clear ideas on what damage is needed for the sg try to balance that aspect. I'm likely to be happy with almost any damage values for the sg, provided the push is high enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dexter
The SG sucks. That doesn't make it OK to attack the dev team
Yes and no. The sg has sucked BECAUSE of the dev team, then LEFT that way for 2 years. So really, it's completely their fault, taking something that was working and breaking it, then ignoring it. However, I didn't realize until recently that was a largely different team that caused the problems, so I don't blame anyone who came in after the fact and/or had nothing to do with the change in the first place. I thought it was all the same people.
chilledsanity is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 11-23-2010, 02:13 AM   #105
squeek.
Stuff Do-er
Lua Team
Wiki Team
Fortress Forever Staff
 
squeek.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Northern California
Class/Position: Rallygun Shooter
Gametype: Conc tag (you just wait)
Affiliations: Mustache Brigade
Posts Rated Helpful 352 Times
Send a message via AIM to squeek.
To be more clear, the "changing of the guard" came pretty much right after 2.0 was released. At that point, only AfterShock, trepid_jon, and mervaka (and Jiggles for a bit) were left from the original dev team.

So, from after 2.0 on the dev team has remained the same for the most part.
__________________
#FF.Pickup ¤ Fortress-Forever pickups

My Non-official Maps
Released FF_DM_Squeek - FF_2Mesa3_Classic - FF_Siege_Classic
Beta FF_Myth - FF_Redlight_Greenlight

Sick of the people on the internet, always moanin'. They just moan.
- Karl Pilkington

Last edited by squeek.; 11-23-2010 at 02:16 AM.
squeek. is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 11-23-2010, 04:47 AM   #106
chilledsanity
D&A Member
 
chilledsanity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Gametype: AvD, I/D, waterpolo, hunted
Posts Rated Helpful 6 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by squeek. View Post
To be more clear, the "changing of the guard" came pretty much right after 2.0 was released. At that point, only AfterShock, trepid_jon, and mervaka (and Jiggles for a bit) were left from the original dev team.

So, from after 2.0 on the dev team has remained the same for the most part.
Ugh, I misread one of your earlier statements, I was assuming you guys came in after 2.1. That kind of undermines what I was thinking since the most crippling patch to AvD WAS 2.1.
chilledsanity is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 11-23-2010, 05:07 AM   #107
squeek.
Stuff Do-er
Lua Team
Wiki Team
Fortress Forever Staff
 
squeek.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Northern California
Class/Position: Rallygun Shooter
Gametype: Conc tag (you just wait)
Affiliations: Mustache Brigade
Posts Rated Helpful 352 Times
Send a message via AIM to squeek.
Yeah, we're still monsters.
__________________
#FF.Pickup ¤ Fortress-Forever pickups

My Non-official Maps
Released FF_DM_Squeek - FF_2Mesa3_Classic - FF_Siege_Classic
Beta FF_Myth - FF_Redlight_Greenlight

Sick of the people on the internet, always moanin'. They just moan.
- Karl Pilkington
squeek. is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 11-23-2010, 05:17 AM   #108
Crazycarl
D&A Member
Wiki Team
Fortress Forever Staff
 
Crazycarl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 31 Times
Why are you so concerned about who did what? There were seven months between those two patches and the entire team turned over during that time.

You can edit push and damage for any weapon with lua, but I certainly don't want to do that on a per-map basis. I wouldn't be opposed to, say, restricting SG levels per-map. Maybe you get a powerup that gives you super sentry push. I just don't want it to be a hidden variable.

Really, I'm coming to the realization that the problem is AvD itself. If--all balance issues aside--one guy with the flag can end the game, that's a pretty poor situation, isn't it? We tried to remedy this with some new maps like ff_impact and ff_genesis, but they never took off in popularity. I'd like to see what comes of Bridget's payload gametype. Anything that lets the offense work progressively toward a goal is good, but in no case do we want a map to be over too quickly.

Last edited by Crazycarl; 11-23-2010 at 05:18 AM.
Crazycarl is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 11-23-2010, 05:41 AM   #109
Ricey
UI Designer
Front-End Developer
Fortress Forever Staff
 
Ricey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Winter Park, FL
Class/Position: D Eng
Gametype: CTF 9v9
Affiliations: .gr , smr
Posts Rated Helpful 46 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by squeek. View Post
Yeah, we're still monsters.
BURN WITH FIRE!
__________________
Support FF:
Maps : Haste |Scrummage |Mulch_Trench
Voltage | Exchange Classic | Fortsake
ricecakes: I demand SGs get a buff
squeek.: buy it a gym membership


'I have an eye for design' - Kube 2014
Ricey is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 11-23-2010, 10:49 AM   #110
GenghisTron
AKA LittleAndroidMan
D&A Member
Beta Tester
 
GenghisTron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Dystopia
Class/Position: Demo/Medic
Gametype: CTF
Affiliations: [TALOS] [SR]
Posts Rated Helpful 11 Times
them fuckers messed with the darn sg
__________________
GenghisTron is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 11-23-2010, 01:55 PM   #111
Eon Seig
AaaaaaaTATATATATATATATA!
 
Eon Seig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Florida
Class/Position: Pyro Scout Soldier / Offense
Gametype: CTF/AvD
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazycarl View Post
I'd like to see what comes of Bridget's payload gametype. Anything that lets the offense work progressively toward a goal is good, but in no case do we want a map to be over too quickly.
Too bad Payload is Valve's reason to ignore Hunted despite nearly continuous requests to bring it back.

Yet another reason why I don't play TF2 very much anymore.
Eon Seig is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 11-23-2010, 10:54 PM   #112
chilledsanity
D&A Member
 
chilledsanity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Gametype: AvD, I/D, waterpolo, hunted
Posts Rated Helpful 6 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by squeek.
Yeah, we're still monsters.
I think it's been more of a "they know not what they do" situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyCarl
Why are you so concerned about who did what? There were seven months between those two patches and the entire team turned over during that time.
If someone created a problem in the first place, then never fixed it for years, it's reasonable to assume at least some of those people aren't the best choice to fix said problem. If it was just confusion from the switchover, then it's reasonable the problem could have been addressed by 2.2, or 2.3, or more seriously for 2.4.

Say I throw a rock at a window and accidentally smash it. Then the window remains smashed for 2 weeks. After 2 weeks, I tape a plastic bag over it. I'm probably not the ideal person to fix the window then.

Or say I want to go and fix smashed windows in town. The town hall says they can certainly look into this and I might have a voice, but they'll have to make sure my plans for not throwing rocks at windows won't create problems for other town members who have been breaking them. It's not a 1:1 analogy since I don't think any dev member was TRYING to ruin part of the game, it's more the procedure and end result I'm looking at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyCarl
Really, I'm coming to the realization that the problem is AvD itself. If--all balance issues aside--one guy with the flag can end the game, that's a pretty poor situation, isn't it? We tried to remedy this with some new maps like ff_impact and ff_genesis, but they never took off in popularity. I'd like to see what comes of Bridget's payload gametype. Anything that lets the offense work progressively toward a goal is good, but in no case do we want a map to be over too quickly.
Well all I can say is it USED to work, though I can understand where balancing is tricky. As for payload, while it would be certainly be different (espcially for more verically inclined maps), if you wanted to replace all the AvD and I/D maps with that kind of system, I wouldn't object. It would ensure that no matter how weak D became or how strong O became, it wouldn't overpower the game.
chilledsanity is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 11-23-2010, 11:03 PM   #113
Crazycarl
D&A Member
Wiki Team
Fortress Forever Staff
 
Crazycarl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 31 Times
In TFC AvD, didn't flag runners move at 50% speed or something like that? Why don't we bring that back?
Crazycarl is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 11-23-2010, 11:32 PM   #114
Iggy
Heartless Threadkiller
Beta Tester
Forum Moderator
 
Iggy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Class/Position: D-Solly / O-Medic
Gametype: CTF
Affiliations: [AE] AssEaters
Posts Rated Helpful 42 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazycarl View Post
In TFC AvD, didn't flag runners move at 50% speed or something like that? Why don't we bring that back?
I think that was only certain maps.... but I like this idea.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by zSilver_Fox
See kids? Only Iggy and FT are good enough to post when high.
Publishers Website My book on BN.com My book on Amazon.com

Friend me on Facebook
Follow me on Twitter
Iggy is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 11-24-2010, 12:32 AM   #115
squeek.
Stuff Do-er
Lua Team
Wiki Team
Fortress Forever Staff
 
squeek.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Northern California
Class/Position: Rallygun Shooter
Gametype: Conc tag (you just wait)
Affiliations: Mustache Brigade
Posts Rated Helpful 352 Times
Send a message via AIM to squeek.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazycarl View Post
In TFC AvD, didn't flag runners move at 50% speed or something like that? Why don't we bring that back?
Speed reduction for flag runners is on dustbowl in FF. If I remember right, TFC didn't have speed reduction for flag carriers in I/D maps.
__________________
#FF.Pickup ¤ Fortress-Forever pickups

My Non-official Maps
Released FF_DM_Squeek - FF_2Mesa3_Classic - FF_Siege_Classic
Beta FF_Myth - FF_Redlight_Greenlight

Sick of the people on the internet, always moanin'. They just moan.
- Karl Pilkington

Last edited by squeek.; 11-24-2010 at 12:33 AM.
squeek. is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 11-24-2010, 10:35 AM   #116
GenghisTron
AKA LittleAndroidMan
D&A Member
Beta Tester
 
GenghisTron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Dystopia
Class/Position: Demo/Medic
Gametype: CTF
Affiliations: [TALOS] [SR]
Posts Rated Helpful 11 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazycarl View Post
In TFC AvD, didn't flag runners move at 50% speed or something like that? Why don't we bring that back?
Depended on the map.
__________________
GenghisTron is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 11-24-2010, 11:12 AM   #117
GenghisTron
AKA LittleAndroidMan
D&A Member
Beta Tester
 
GenghisTron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Dystopia
Class/Position: Demo/Medic
Gametype: CTF
Affiliations: [TALOS] [SR]
Posts Rated Helpful 11 Times
..........................
__________________
GenghisTron is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 11-24-2010, 11:17 AM   #118
Ricey
UI Designer
Front-End Developer
Fortress Forever Staff
 
Ricey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Winter Park, FL
Class/Position: D Eng
Gametype: CTF 9v9
Affiliations: .gr , smr
Posts Rated Helpful 46 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by GenghisTron View Post
..........................
Nothing to see here,move along!
__________________
Support FF:
Maps : Haste |Scrummage |Mulch_Trench
Voltage | Exchange Classic | Fortsake
ricecakes: I demand SGs get a buff
squeek.: buy it a gym membership


'I have an eye for design' - Kube 2014
Ricey is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 11-24-2010, 10:41 PM   #119
JackBauer
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Switzerland
Posts Rated Helpful 20 Times
fao devs

any chance of going back to the roots regarding class/weapon etc values? I never played a pre 2.4 version, but based on several threads, some former versions seem to have been slightly better balanced (engi, sg, AvD...).
__________________
Swiss Fortress Community
JackBauer is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 11-24-2010, 11:42 PM   #120
chilledsanity
D&A Member
 
chilledsanity's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Gametype: AvD, I/D, waterpolo, hunted
Posts Rated Helpful 6 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackBauer View Post
fao devs

any chance of going back to the roots regarding class/weapon etc values? I never played a pre 2.4 version, but based on several threads, some former versions seem to have been slightly better balanced (engi, sg, AvD...).
If you have a copy of Half-Life, you can always check out TFC to get an idea of what it was like. The sg is still as mean there as it ever was.
chilledsanity is offline   Reply With Quote


Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 08:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.