(Beta) FF_Flow new version released

BumGravy · 03-30-2008, 12:21 PM

Adamido · 03-30-2008, 01:50 PM

Is it REAL?!
Oh wow, good job.

GeoKill-----> · 03-30-2008, 02:10 PM

Oh shit, downloading now

BumGravy · 03-30-2008, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adamido

Is it REAL?!
Oh wow, good job.

No its just a map i made it in hammur.

And thanks

[AE] 82694 · 03-30-2008, 04:31 PM

I'll get the new version put up on server and Fast DL when I get home.

Lt Llama · 03-30-2008, 07:41 PM

First time i see this map. By far the most source looking map in FF. I don't know what it is with mixing fortress architecture with majestic nature scenes, it shouldnt work, but it really do. I rather prefer a map like this than a perfect made city or village. I was stunned by the pounding sound from the waterfalls when i first spawned. I couldnt focus on looking at the map, I just got carried away by the water sound.

Words can't give this map justice. I just hope more people get to know about it and play it for as long as source games are played. But it could be disruptive for the gameplay with such an awsome looking map if def starts to dreamingly look up at the mountains and forget to be sharp

.

Trully an Interloper map.

My rants:
Personally I think the water sound could be tuned down a bit. Someone said to me that if you wan't to make an effective explosion in a radio play, the best way is not to have as big blast as possible. It can be more effective with just a tiny blast. Maybe you raised the volume this much to make it realistic to teh size of the waterfall. It is, but maybe it could work with less volume. But keep the low bass to maintain the feeling of the massive water falls.

Some details, don't know if they are any relevant but anyway.

Possible to fix the thickness of these bars in the corners of that fence?
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...flowb20000.jpg

Maybe possible to fix that
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...flowb20001.jpg

The player won't see this as it is in the locked room, but anyway
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...flowb20002.jpg

FUNLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND. Found the way

. Well, transparent faces in some of the letters there
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...flowb20003.jpg

Looks wrong somehow
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...flowb20005.jpg

Is it a little gap here or am i seeing things that are not there?
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...flowb20006.jpg

Maybe fix this brush in the room which I won't tell anyone else where it is?
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...flowb20007.jpg

Added to Euroskillz 85.114.140.42:27016 with fast download.

Thx for an effort like this. Makes you proud to be a gamer.

p.s. Never mind the fps, my comp is shit.

**squeek.** · 03-30-2008, 09:58 PM

Excellent job. Will get some pickups going on this map ASAP.

BumGravy · 03-30-2008, 10:43 PM

Re: Lt Llama, first off thanks for your kind words and crits. I was worried about the water being too loud too, but it seems that when another sound is played (ie explosions, or you jumping, or weapon firing) it makes the water sound go quiet for a moment, so you only notice the water sounds when theres nothing happening and no one about, so I left them at current volume. This may be just my weird ears however, so Ill leave it down to testing. Sound entities seem odd in Source, some play loud with a big radius, and then i put dripping water sounds in the caves that I can only ever hear with my speakers cranked, regardless of entity settings.

Good job on finding funland and thanks for not spoiling it for the rest

Well spotted with those errors too - I was convinced this map was almost perfect but I always miss something, or break something while fixing something else...

By the way, the low-FPS outside is a feature not a bug, designed to reduce midmapping and sniper wars and to encourage people to fight inside the nice optimised bases - I very nearly changed the outside water to Expensive instead of cheap, but that halved my already droopy fps so had to go with cheap

Please let me know if you spot anything else and remember tell NO ONE about funland!!!

Re squeek: I would be interested in joining in a pickup and am currently idling idly, when do you normally hold them?

BumGravy · 03-31-2008, 01:05 AM

Ok we just had a playtest on this and it seems to lag like a m£"%"%%er, mainly because of the water. I think unless i take out most of what makes the map pretty, its going to remain unplayable

**squeek.** · 03-31-2008, 01:19 AM

Okay, so here's the major flaw with the map as of right now: there is essentially one entrance and exit to and from the flagroom. The respawn-side entrance is virtually impassable if there is any sort of decent soldier there and the flag is virtually ungrabbable if there is any sort of SG in the FR with a soli on the ramp.

Here are my suggestions.

#1: New entrance
http://www.ffpickup.com/temp/flow/1.jpg
This would provide a reason to try to escape down the lower entrance or come in through the lower entrance. Currently there is no reason to do so.

#2: Better FR access
http://www.ffpickup.com/temp/flow/2.jpg
Make a ramp soldier not as unstoppable. Make him cover 2 entrances instead of 1. It'll also provide a reason to use the lower entrance/exit

#3: Functional spawn-side FR entrance
http://www.ffpickup.com/temp/flow/3-1.jpg
Remove this whole wall. Make getting across this gap easier/less annoying. Maybe consider making it possible without a conc using a func_push.

http://www.ffpickup.com/temp/flow/3-2.jpg
Widen this out to at least the level shown. An SG can currently block this entrance and a soli could do the same.

http://www.ffpickup.com/temp/flow/3-3.jpg
Remove that little dip in the ceiling to the right in the SS. Consider removing that entire center wall, but I'm not totally sure this is necessary. Maybe widen the hallway instead.

#4: Lower entrance improvements
http://www.ffpickup.com/temp/flow/4-1.jpg
Make this a fast-moving elevator. Make it usable to all teams and make it work like so: Starts at the bottom, if someone hits the first trigger (yellow) it comes up to their level and stops. Once they enter the green trigger, it comes up to the top.

http://www.ffpickup.com/temp/flow/4-2.jpg
Move the water entrance's exit here and make the water push you incredibly fast. It will never, ever get used in its current form.

#5: FR Improvements
http://www.ffpickup.com/temp/flow/5-1.jpg
Smooth out this displacement or make it non-solid and put an invisible texture under it so that rampsliding is made possible.

http://www.ffpickup.com/temp/flow/5-2.jpg
Open this side up by removing the corner off this part of the wall.

Also, try sorting the FPS issues. Occluders might help and remove the realtime-view from the funland as a precaution. Also, the flagroom water does not have a cheap version available. FPS issues making the map unplayable is no fun at all. I feel your pain.

Good luck.

Gator- · 03-31-2008, 03:06 PM

squeek pretty much covered it...it is essential that you take some (if not all) of his suggestions so we can actually enjoy this beautiful looking map.

Consider making an offense spawn, it was quite annoying trying to get out of the spawn and make your way into the yard.

Fps issues gotta be worked out, flagroom only gives you 30-50 fps on a high end pc. (although it feels like 10)

Needs a waterfall resound or it feels a bit boring and unnatural

Like squeek said, make the water entrance actually useful by adding some push.

Can't wait to see it in progress...

(btw, I'm not a fan of the sand texture...consider using a better looking nature texture)

**squeek.** · 03-31-2008, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirTiger

Needs a waterfall resound or it feels a bit boring and unnatural

There is a waterfall sound on local servers. Maybe the sound was included in the client build but not in the server build of FF?

Probably just need to include it with the map download just in case.

BumGravy · 04-01-2008, 10:07 AM

OK im trying to track down the source of my FPS problems. this is doing my head in.

I am currently running a compile with:
*No models
*No waterfalls
*cheap water
*No brush entities - dustmotes, spawn laser things etc
*No steam entities, so no particle effects
*no funland
*All lightmaps have been put back to power of 16

And STILL i can not get my FPS to go above 200, and in some areas goes barely above 100, even though on aardvark in the yard (high quality and large amount of water, largeish view area, lots of textures and lightmaps and glass etc) my fps goes to 300. Note I am on a pretty decent set up.

Now wtf can be holding my fps back ?! I have nothing left to cut out of my map!!!

Credge · 04-01-2008, 10:22 AM

Try running your map in wireframe mode (mat_wireframe 1) and tell us how much of the level is being rendered at a time.

BumGravy · 04-01-2008, 10:39 AM

I have a basic set of hitns in so theres no issues with too many areas being drawn. However, world textures seems to be very high considering the area visibility is failry optimised. I think I may have overtrimmed the map, the very first thing i did was design the floor theme and if you look at the tiles>metal>other metal trim shown here: http://usera.imagecave.com/bumgravy/ff_flowb2_e.jpg I have clipped the floor so each piece of trim is its own brush. Perhaps if I remove the trim from the floors I will get a significant FPS boost.

*Edit: For some reason it seems prop models are giveing a pretty big FPS hit, even with self-shadowing and self lighting turned off on all of them. Is there a way to see how many prop models are being drwn in adjacent areas, so I can set up some occluders?

Lt Llama · 04-01-2008, 01:09 PM

r_visocclusion 1

Instead of removing stuff and recompiling play around with all the cvars to turn stuff on and off.

See here http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Showbudget

Ginger Lord · 04-02-2008, 11:47 AM

Any spot light entities have their "dynamic light" option flagged on? Thats a classic FPS killer.

GambiT · 04-02-2008, 11:50 AM

whencolossuswillout?

BumGravy · 04-02-2008, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ginger Lord

Any spot light entities have their "dynamic light" option flagged on? Thats a classic FPS killer.

Aint no spotlights in the map.

BumGravy · 04-02-2008, 06:35 PM

new texture scheme, and adding a new platform to the mid-base for better flagroom side-door access :

I think i have the FPS issues nailed, but ignore the performance in the screenshots, this is just to show you guys new texture schemes.

03-30-2008, 07:41 PM	#6
Lt Llama Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	First time i see this map. By far the most source looking map in FF. I don't know what it is with mixing fortress architecture with majestic nature scenes, it shouldnt work, but it really do. I rather prefer a map like this than a perfect made city or village. I was stunned by the pounding sound from the waterfalls when i first spawned. I couldnt focus on looking at the map, I just got carried away by the water sound. Words can't give this map justice. I just hope more people get to know about it and play it for as long as source games are played. But it could be disruptive for the gameplay with such an awsome looking map if def starts to dreamingly look up at the mountains and forget to be sharp . Trully an Interloper map. My rants: Personally I think the water sound could be tuned down a bit. Someone said to me that if you wan't to make an effective explosion in a radio play, the best way is not to have as big blast as possible. It can be more effective with just a tiny blast. Maybe you raised the volume this much to make it realistic to teh size of the waterfall. It is, but maybe it could work with less volume. But keep the low bass to maintain the feeling of the massive water falls. Some details, don't know if they are any relevant but anyway. Possible to fix the thickness of these bars in the corners of that fence? http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...flowb20000.jpg Maybe possible to fix that http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...flowb20001.jpg The player won't see this as it is in the locked room, but anyway http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...flowb20002.jpg FUNLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND. Found the way . Well, transparent faces in some of the letters there http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...flowb20003.jpg Looks wrong somehow http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...flowb20005.jpg Is it a little gap here or am i seeing things that are not there? http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...flowb20006.jpg Maybe fix this brush in the room which I won't tell anyone else where it is? http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/a...flowb20007.jpg Added to Euroskillz 85.114.140.42:27016 with fast download. Thx for an effort like this. Makes you proud to be a gamer. p.s. Never mind the fps, my comp is shit. __________________

03-30-2008, 09:58 PM	#7
squeek. Stuff Do-er Lua Team Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Northern California Class/Position: Rallygun Shooter Gametype: Conc tag (you just wait) Affiliations: Mustache Brigade Posts Rated Helpful 352 Times	Excellent job. Will get some pickups going on this map ASAP. __________________ #FF.Pickup ¤ Fortress-Forever pickups My Non-official Maps Released FF_DM_Squeek - FF_2Mesa3_Classic - FF_Siege_Classic Beta FF_Myth - FF_Redlight_Greenlight Sick of the people on the internet, always moanin'. They just moan. - Karl Pilkington

03-31-2008, 01:19 AM	#10
squeek. Stuff Do-er Lua Team Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Northern California Class/Position: Rallygun Shooter Gametype: Conc tag (you just wait) Affiliations: Mustache Brigade Posts Rated Helpful 352 Times	Okay, so here's the major flaw with the map as of right now: there is essentially one entrance and exit to and from the flagroom. The respawn-side entrance is virtually impassable if there is any sort of decent soldier there and the flag is virtually ungrabbable if there is any sort of SG in the FR with a soli on the ramp. Here are my suggestions. #1: New entrance http://www.ffpickup.com/temp/flow/1.jpg This would provide a reason to try to escape down the lower entrance or come in through the lower entrance. Currently there is no reason to do so. #2: Better FR access http://www.ffpickup.com/temp/flow/2.jpg Make a ramp soldier not as unstoppable. Make him cover 2 entrances instead of 1. It'll also provide a reason to use the lower entrance/exit #3: Functional spawn-side FR entrance http://www.ffpickup.com/temp/flow/3-1.jpg Remove this whole wall. Make getting across this gap easier/less annoying. Maybe consider making it possible without a conc using a func_push. http://www.ffpickup.com/temp/flow/3-2.jpg Widen this out to at least the level shown. An SG can currently block this entrance and a soli could do the same. http://www.ffpickup.com/temp/flow/3-3.jpg Remove that little dip in the ceiling to the right in the SS. Consider removing that entire center wall, but I'm not totally sure this is necessary. Maybe widen the hallway instead. #4: Lower entrance improvements http://www.ffpickup.com/temp/flow/4-1.jpg Make this a fast-moving elevator. Make it usable to all teams and make it work like so: Starts at the bottom, if someone hits the first trigger (yellow) it comes up to their level and stops. Once they enter the green trigger, it comes up to the top. http://www.ffpickup.com/temp/flow/4-2.jpg Move the water entrance's exit here and make the water push you incredibly fast. It will never, ever get used in its current form. #5: FR Improvements http://www.ffpickup.com/temp/flow/5-1.jpg Smooth out this displacement or make it non-solid and put an invisible texture under it so that rampsliding is made possible. http://www.ffpickup.com/temp/flow/5-2.jpg Open this side up by removing the corner off this part of the wall. Also, try sorting the FPS issues. Occluders might help and remove the realtime-view from the funland as a precaution. Also, the flagroom water does not have a cheap version available. FPS issues making the map unplayable is no fun at all. I feel your pain. Good luck. __________________ #FF.Pickup ¤ Fortress-Forever pickups My Non-official Maps Released FF_DM_Squeek - FF_2Mesa3_Classic - FF_Siege_Classic Beta FF_Myth - FF_Redlight_Greenlight Sick of the people on the internet, always moanin'. They just moan. - Karl Pilkington Last edited by squeek.; 03-31-2008 at 06:38 AM.

03-31-2008, 03:06 PM	#11
Gator- FF God Join Date: May 2007 Location: TX Class/Position: Scout O, Medic O, Demo D/O, Soldier D Gametype: CTF 4v4 Affiliations: [milkwood] ( GoodFellas ) Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times	squeek pretty much covered it...it is essential that you take some (if not all) of his suggestions so we can actually enjoy this beautiful looking map. Consider making an offense spawn, it was quite annoying trying to get out of the spawn and make your way into the yard. Fps issues gotta be worked out, flagroom only gives you 30-50 fps on a high end pc. (although it feels like 10) Needs a waterfall resound or it feels a bit boring and unnatural Like squeek said, make the water entrance actually useful by adding some push. Can't wait to see it in progress... (btw, I'm not a fan of the sand texture...consider using a better looking nature texture) __________________ FF_ROASTED_CLASSIC [RELEASED] FF_EVENFLOW_B2 [RELEASED] FF_OPPOSE_B1 [COMING SOON]

04-01-2008, 10:07 AM	#13
BumGravy Black Cyclops Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Scotland Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	FPS problems OK im trying to track down the source of my FPS problems. this is doing my head in. I am currently running a compile with: No models No waterfalls cheap water No brush entities - dustmotes, spawn laser things etc No steam entities, so no particle effects no funland All lightmaps have been put back to power of 16 And STILL i can not get my FPS to go above 200, and in some areas goes barely above 100, even though on aardvark in the yard (high quality and large amount of water, largeish view area, lots of textures and lightmaps and glass etc) my fps goes to 300. Note I am on a pretty decent set up. Now wtf can be holding my fps back ?! I have nothing left to cut out of my map!!! Last edited by BumGravy; 04-01-2008 at 10:12 AM.*

03-30-2008, 12:21 PM	#1
BumGravy Black Cyclops Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Scotland Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	[Beta 2] FF_Flow new version released Pics: http://usera.imagecave.com/bumgravy/ff_flowb2_a.jpg http://usera.imagecave.com/bumgravy/ff_flowb2_b.jpg http://usera.imagecave.com/bumgravy/ff_flowb2_c.jpg http://usera.imagecave.com/bumgravy/ff_flowb2_d.jpg http://usera.imagecave.com/bumgravy/ff_flowb2_e.jpg Download: 1: http://www.fpsbanana.com/maps/download/50538 2: http://www.filefactory.com/file/d8369f/ EDIT: Update on pics for next release: http://usera.imagecave.com/bumgravy/ff_flowb40.jpg http://usera.imagecave.com/bumgravy/ff_flowb41.jpg http://usera.imagecave.com/bumgravy/ff_flowb42.jpg http://usera.imagecave.com/bumgravy/ff_flowb43.jpg Last edited by BumGravy; 04-02-2008 at 11:18 PM.

03-30-2008, 01:50 PM	#2
Adamido Its over nine thousands!!! Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Poland Class/Position: midmap pyro / o spy Gametype: AvD Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Is it REAL?! Oh wow, good job.

03-30-2008, 02:10 PM	#3
GeoKill-----> Community Member Server Owner Beta Tester Forum Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Hawthorne, California Class/Position: Soldier/Spy/Scout Gametype: AvD Affiliations: :e0:Eternal Order Leader Posts Rated Helpful 12 Times	Oh shit, downloading now __________________ Fortress-Forever Guides All Your Mapping Needs :e0: Will live on Forever Support FF:

03-30-2008, 04:31 PM	#5
[AE] 82694 Retired FF Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I'll get the new version put up on server and Fast DL when I get home. __________________ I Love GenghisTron . I miss you sooooo Much. LOL.

03-30-2008, 10:43 PM	#8
BumGravy Black Cyclops Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Scotland Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Re: Lt Llama, first off thanks for your kind words and crits. I was worried about the water being too loud too, but it seems that when another sound is played (ie explosions, or you jumping, or weapon firing) it makes the water sound go quiet for a moment, so you only notice the water sounds when theres nothing happening and no one about, so I left them at current volume. This may be just my weird ears however, so Ill leave it down to testing. Sound entities seem odd in Source, some play loud with a big radius, and then i put dripping water sounds in the caves that I can only ever hear with my speakers cranked, regardless of entity settings. Good job on finding funland and thanks for not spoiling it for the rest Well spotted with those errors too - I was convinced this map was almost perfect but I always miss something, or break something while fixing something else... By the way, the low-FPS outside is a feature not a bug, designed to reduce midmapping and sniper wars and to encourage people to fight inside the nice optimised bases - I very nearly changed the outside water to Expensive instead of cheap, but that halved my already droopy fps so had to go with cheap Please let me know if you spot anything else and remember tell NO ONE about funland!!! Re squeek: I would be interested in joining in a pickup and am currently idling idly, when do you normally hold them?

03-31-2008, 01:05 AM	#9
BumGravy Black Cyclops Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Scotland Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Ok we just had a playtest on this and it seems to lag like a m£"%"%%er, mainly because of the water. I think unless i take out most of what makes the map pretty, its going to remain unplayable

04-01-2008, 10:22 AM	#14
Credge FF Loremaster Beta Tester Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 4 Times	Try running your map in wireframe mode (mat_wireframe 1) and tell us how much of the level is being rendered at a time. __________________ "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" Ronald Reagan

04-01-2008, 10:39 AM	#15
BumGravy Black Cyclops Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Scotland Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I have a basic set of hitns in so theres no issues with too many areas being drawn. However, world textures seems to be very high considering the area visibility is failry optimised. I think I may have overtrimmed the map, the very first thing i did was design the floor theme and if you look at the tiles>metal>other metal trim shown here: http://usera.imagecave.com/bumgravy/ff_flowb2_e.jpg I have clipped the floor so each piece of trim is its own brush. Perhaps if I remove the trim from the floors I will get a significant FPS boost. Edit: For some reason it seems prop models are giveing a pretty big FPS hit, even with self-shadowing and self lighting turned off on all of them. Is there a way to see how many prop models are being drwn in adjacent areas, so I can set up some occluders? Last edited by BumGravy; 04-01-2008 at 10:44 AM.*

04-01-2008, 01:09 PM	#16
Lt Llama Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	r_visocclusion 1 Instead of removing stuff and recompiling play around with all the cvars to turn stuff on and off. See here http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Showbudget __________________

04-02-2008, 11:47 AM	#17
Ginger Lord Retired FF Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sunny England Affiliations: Custard Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Any spot light entities have their "dynamic light" option flagged on? Thats a classic FPS killer.

04-02-2008, 11:50 AM	#18
GambiT Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Baton Rouge Class/Position: Spy Affiliations: -=DoM=- Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	whencolossuswillout? __________________ -------------------------------FF_Rock2(WIP)------------------------------ ---------------------------FF_RedGiant(Released)------------------------- --------------------------FF_Fragzone_G(Released)------------------------ --------------------------FF_Civibash_G(Released)------------------------ -------------------FF_Conc_G1(WIP)-------------------- -------------------FF_Hollow_G(WIP)---------------------

04-02-2008, 06:35 PM	#20
BumGravy Black Cyclops Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Scotland Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	new texture scheme, and adding a new platform to the mid-base for better flagroom side-door access : I think i have the FPS issues nailed, but ignore the performance in the screenshots, this is just to show you guys new texture schemes. Last edited by BumGravy; 04-02-2008 at 11:18 PM.

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