The way newcomers & certain classes are treated

[KubeDawg]

I've been playing online games for a looong time, longer than I like to admit. Something I have noticed no matter what game I play is there always seems to be at least a few shit talkers to anyone new that is trying out the game or to players who have KNOW how to play, yet choose to play whatever class they want, in the style they want to play.

It is inevitable this will happen. The best thing I can do personally is to get my own server and enforce a NO ASSHOLES rule.

But what about those who don't own a server who just play regularly? I'm not going to name names because it's disrespectful, but some people just can't handle the fact that newcomers will play a class, regardless of its purpose, and live in ignorance of actually how to use the class or even how to play Fortress Forever in the most basic way.

That's not to say ALL newcomers are like this, but there are more than a few. In fact, I would say the majority of the people who install this game, uninstall shortly after because,

1. The learning curve is too high
2. They are treated with disrespect, simply for being new
3. Lack of server activity(maybe 1 full server at a time)
4. Graphics are outdated
5. Game is unbalanced

I don't believe most gamers are THAT lazy to the point where they never want to take the time and learn how to play a class. They DO want to learn, this mod is just too overwhelming from the start unless they've played a similar Fortress game before, bunnyhopping and all(e.g. there's not that many).

Do weapons need nerfing? Maybe, but I think a more important issue here is how we choose to treat newcomers anytime they join a server.

There is a certain level of respect I give to every new person I meet, whether it be in game or in real life. I don't talk down to someone or call them a noob for playing Sniper or Pyro. Instead, what I do is basically act as if.

Act as if I am the most knowledgeable tech person in my family and I am trying to teach my grandmother how to use a computer for the first time. I hate to say it, but sometimes this is how it feels when dealing with some new players.

You can't just expect everyone new to know what the hell they're supposed to do when they install FF, and name calling isn't really going to help that person get better.

This is why we need things in place like Class Descriptions and/or an improved Training mode that would encompass both the general game basics as well as all class-specific basics.

I work in the software industry, we make software for Pizza companies. When I get a call from a store manager or assistant manager with an issue, unless I've spoken with them before and know their technical saaviness, I go into every issue they call about with the mindset that they don't know anything about our software, and that I alone, will be able to solve their problem. Pizza managers aren't usually going to be very tech saavy because business is pizza, not software... And even in the case where they are knowledgeable, I still begin the call as if they are not.

Being empathetic to the needs of newcomers will guarantee more activity in this mod. Set aside ideas to change or add or remove weapons/grenades/classes etc... None of that matters if we don't take care of the people who took the time to download this mod first.

First thing a new player sees or hears when they join: LOL LOOK AT THE NEWB SNIPER LOLOLOL. Fucking sniper should uninstall FF and kill himself. (I've seen worse said to new players)

First thing a new player SHOULD see(who is clearly struggling with learning how to play) is: Looks like you are having a hard time. Need some help? And if they don't want help, leave them be. There's absolutely nothing wrong with what class a player chooses, and if they want to learn the hard way or not learn much of anything at all, then that's their choice.

There is no purpose to talk down or be condescending towards someone new. It only affects this game negatively by ensuring that player never joins an FF server again.

There's also a difference between someone who uses a class frequently that irritates people. Sniper is the classic example. No matter how long someone practices that class, they will mostly likely often be labeled a noob. I've switched to sniper and been bitched at or something is said to me that makes me think people really do hate this class. That's besides the point. The class is a part of this game and until it's been removed, how about not making a stupid comment every time someone chooses to play Sniper or any other class you don't like?

Father Guido plays Pyro a lot, and it pisses me off every time I conc into his base, because as a Scout, I will get owned a lot of the time. This problem is not with Guido or anyone else who plays Pyro, but the class itself.

There's often an unwritten code most of the seasoned players live by and that is if you play a certain class, you are considered a noob automatically and should be treated as such... Guido is the perfect example of "Haters will hate" because he still plays the shit out of Pyro haha and I still get owned by him a lot.

So next time you are in the server and you see someone NEW who looks like they might need some help, HELP them. It will only help this community grow larger. If you see someone who's been playing for a long time, yet still chooses pyro or sniper or any other class you consider to be a noobish class, take the high road and learn to adapt to the class they chose.

/rant

[Gwarsbane]

Not sure what server you're seeing that on but on the OT server they are generally nice with noobs, specially when they start asking questions.

There are certain people that do badmouth certain classes, but they are usually asked to stop, or people bring up arguments against their reasons. Eventually those people that badmouth classes usually end up leaving. Course those certain people also tend to target people who play the same class all/most of the time.

[Dexter]

pyro is for noobs and sniper is mindlessly easy for anyone who isnt a noob at fps

[WiFiDi]

what on talos ive been on all the servers ot etc... and ive seen them all treat newcomers like crap its hardly ever the admins but some of those old school guys bounce from server to server running there fat mouth all the time. and just because some people don't have the same skill, practice etc... they sit around and treat them like shit, i don't like it at all. maybe its a confidence booster because they know you get laid and they don't.

[FreaK367]

I think the general attitude of a section of the community needs to change, on Talos for example, I killed some guy who I actually see on OT quite often but he doesn't talk much, but when I killed him in Talos, he instantly called me a "nigger" through chat. Which just seemed unnecessary, not that it offends me, but I just didn't see the need for it. And some people just mindlessly insult eachother through chat and microphone, arguing, calling people "niggers" and other crap.

And to a new person joining a fairly small community, joining one if not the only server populated, to be introduced to a bunch of guys who are all acting up and pointlessly acting like complete tits. It's not very welcoming or appealing, that mixed with how those same sorts of people treat new players as KubeDawg mentioned, it doesn't make for a great experience.

Some servers do help as Gwarsbane said, the OT server is generally welcoming to new players, and I and others have went out of our way to teach or atleast advise new players how to play and understand elements of the game. Not to say OT don't have their issues, but the atmosphere is much more positive in OT and much less hostile. Partly because the average age is about 50, but still.

Everyone should just be jolly

[episkopos]

I've been saying we need class descriptions for a while now. Using the text from the hints system would be fine, though you could also use the "Basic Strategy" text I wrote for the wiki.

I'll admit I've not always been pleasant to newcomers, really we all need to make an effort to be more helpful.

To be honest, I think it's a combination of there being only one server at a time and the poor community. In other games, like CoD and TF2, the players aren't necessarily more mature (quite the opposite), but you can go elsewhere if you're being harassed.

[punkrockrocks]

Originally Posted by FreaK367

I think the general attitude of a section of the community needs to change, on Talos for example, I killed some guy who I actually see on OT quite often but he doesn't talk much, but when I killed him in Talos, he instantly called me a "nigger" through chat. Which just seemed unnecessary, not that it offends me, but I just didn't see the need for it. And some people just mindlessly insult eachother through chat and microphone, arguing, calling people "niggers" and other crap.

That's just the internet dude. That's not a problem with FF. If you haven't been called a nigger while playing video games, you have been playing with pussies. Censorship doesn't belong in a game which has murder as an objective.

[Ricey]

There's a difference between being a mass murdering fuck head, then being a mass murdering bigot. Can you guess which one Hilter was?

Sadly, will I agree to a degree, having words censored isn't really up to the FF Devs, now, we can censor words on the forums, as it's property of the devs, but the servers are not.

Hell, I permabanned bridget because his language and because he was a trolling douche nugget.

The best option would to be a optional censorship, which allows the user to control it. Shit, if i wasn't busy with another site project, I could do it on the forums, but vBulletin is evil so I wont .

If you are sick of the vulgarity, then do not play on Talos, play on Kube's or my server.

Next Subject TREATMENT OF CLASSES!

Each game has this, it's just not FF. I was playing Global Agenda and ihmi made fun of me for playing Recon. A sniper class, which got boring after 15 levels (2 days lol).

It was this way in TFC as well, the sniper does not interact well with others, either does the Pyro.

This subject has been beaten to death, and the only way to change it is to make changes to the game.

Also, Kube, if you ever make a long ass post like that again, I WILL STEAL ALL YOUR BACON.

[FreaK367]

Originally Posted by punkrockrocks

That's just the internet dude. That's not a problem with FF. If you haven't been called a nigger while playing video games, you have been playing with pussies.

I know, people always play up on the internet, it's like a shield so people can act like complete tossers and nobody can do anything about it, whereas in real life, a lot of the worst offenders are usually huge victims of life who just can't get enough attention.

Originally Posted by Ricey

The best option would to be a optional censorship, which allows the user to control it.

I wouldn't be against that actually, have it on as default but make it one of the first options in Fortress Options so people can quite easily turn it off.

I think OT should have done that instead of the warning/banning people system, maybe something to **** out the "bad" words. Or even just prevent the text from showing up to others and let the person know that swearing is not allowed. That would be server based only though. Just the **** for a game option.

Hey, it could even make OT reconsider the language filter if people will be able to remove the swear words, one of the main reasons they have it is because members of OT and OT players let their younger family members play the game, and I think most here will understand why they don't want to introduce them to swear words and such. But if the game let them filter, they could just turn it on and let their kids play.

Originally Posted by Ricey

Next Subject TREATMENT OF CLASSES!

Each game has this, it's just not FF. I was playing Global Agenda and ihmi made fun of me for playing Recon. A sniper class, which got boring after 15 levels (2 days lol).

To be fair I rage at Recons quite often because they initiate a fight with me, then when I go to give them one, they run away. Then shoot me in the back... -_- But, Recons in Global Agenda can at higher levels be extremely powerful, I'm an assault so I bring the big guns and take everything head on, yet when I have a level 40 - 50 Recon on my team, they can out damage and out kill me by the end. Also, you can have one of each class, so give Assault a go or medic/robotics.

Anyways, back to FF,

Everyone be nice to others

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by punkrockrocks

That's just the internet dude. That's not a problem with FF. If you haven't been called a nigger while playing video games, you have been playing with pussies. Censorship doesn't belong in a game which has murder as an objective.

Well it IS a problem with FF, it's just not something you can patch. Some games have different concentrations of assholes. FF has a relatively high percentage. I've played a lot of Quake Wars and only very rarely encountered people talking / acting like idiots.

As for people not talking like that being pussies, get real. I'm really sure people like Fatal1ty and pro gamers call people niggers routinely during matches. I've probably played UT2004 more than any other multiplayer game and I'd say out of the best players I've seen, maybe a maximum of 10% of them actually talk like that. The rest were actually playing the game rather than participating in another round of white trash theater.

Generally there is NO correlation between how the player talks v. how good their skill level is. It's not really about censorship (for me anyway). The only thing calling people niggers or cunts or whatever randomly means is that you're a dipshit. Some people like playing with dipshits. Some people are proud of being dipshits and like to defend their right to continue being dipshits. Other people prefer not to play with dipshits, thus that's where the debates stem from. I don't know what the reasons for it are, but I think the FF playerbase clearly leans towards the dipshit end of the spectrum, or at least they're more vocal. Just look at the dozens of ban appeals posted in the forums for OT or the reasons given on their massive ban list.

While it's a noble enough goal to try and enforce better behavior, I think the reality is that getting players to act civil in FF means it would cut the already small playercount to half, if not less.

[WiFiDi]

Originally Posted by punkrockrocks

That's just the internet dude. That's not a problem with FF. If you haven't been called a nigger while playing video games, you have been playing with pussies. Censorship doesn't belong in a game which has murder as an objective.

if your not mature enough to handle death (in a video game.) in a respectful manor then i say gtfo that's just me though. cussing is one thing name calling is malicious because its directed at another person and there for isn't allowed by the constitution. its not freedom of speech at all. so why is it censorship.

[BinaryLife]

Changing the game is one way. But Of course we all understand the stress on the dev's that would have.

I agree with Kube completely. I was told that I wasn't allowed to play as a pyro. Then harassed until I ended up changing to a Soldier. Mostly because I needed to be a better Soldier anyway and also because no one else was playing on any other server at the time.

More to the point. As a community we need to be more strict with these individuals. We need to promote server's like Kube's. I vote that we do not spread negative publicity though. There are servers we all like that may come up on those lists and there's no reason to start arguments and fights. I think we should just focus on the good, but make that good the shining example.

[Agent Buckshot Moose]

Originally Posted by BinaryLife

I agree with Kube completely. I was told that I wasn't allowed to play as a pyro. Then harassed until I ended up changing to a Soldier. Mostly because I needed to be a better Soldier anyway and also because no one else was playing on any other server at the time.

Where was this? On a pickup server?

[FreaK367]

Originally Posted by Agent Buckshot Moose

Where was this? On a pickup server?

That always happens on public servers often towards me when I play sniper, but pyros get their fair share which is why some servers limit or remove those classes, even I am guilty of it on rare occasions when I come up against a one-dimensional player that plays a single class 100% of the time. But that is often frustration.

Of course other people can act aggressively towards people for it, I've been sworn at and insulted on servers for playing sniper, and even admins have joined in before.

[KubeDawg]

It's like when I play Soul Calibur, I always use Kilik, err well maybe 80% of the time, but Kilik is the character I've learned how to play, and therefore he is the class I am most comfortable playing with. Yeah, I want to learn how to master other classes like Cervantes or Yoshimitsu, but I'm going to play the class I feel confident in playing with. Not my fault you can't hack it if you go up against me just because I'm good at a single class.

Haters will hate IMO. Snipers may be looked down upon, but I can get past them 9 times out of 10 without a scratch on me.

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by BinaryLife

Changing the game is one way. But Of course we all understand the stress on the dev's that would have.

I agree with Kube completely. I was told that I wasn't allowed to play as a pyro. Then harassed until I ended up changing to a Soldier. Mostly because I needed to be a better Soldier anyway and also because no one else was playing on any other server at the time.

More to the point. As a community we need to be more strict with these individuals. We need to promote server's like Kube's. I vote that we do not spread negative publicity though. There are servers we all like that may come up on those lists and there's no reason to start arguments and fights. I think we should just focus on the good, but make that good the shining example.

While I don't have a problem with class limits(some maps really do need this, TBH)... I don't like having a class removed from the game(unless it's map specific). I also don't think anyone who doesn't own a server has any right whatsoever to badger anyone because they are playing a class because "it's not a cool thing to do". For myself, I'd ignore them.... even if I had to mute everyone on the server.

I do like your idea of positive promotion. I agree that this is the right course of action. Give the positives of your favorite servers, and keep it at that. Also, if you see someone being harassed for playing a certain class, defend them. It's their right to play the game as they wish(as long as they aren't griefing, of course). All classes are there to be played.

[Dr. eXpl0si0n]

That post was rated H in length. Have any actually sat there to read it all?

[Agent Buckshot Moose]

Originally Posted by FreaK367

That always happens on public servers often towards me when I play sniper, but pyros get their fair share which is why some servers limit or remove those classes, even I am guilty of it on rare occasions when I come up against a one-dimensional player that plays a single class 100% of the time. But that is often frustration.

Of course other people can act aggressively towards people for it, I've been sworn at and insulted on servers for playing sniper, and even admins have joined in before.

Surprisingly I haven't been bitched at for playing Sniper too much lately. Maybe it's because my skill level is either "I have an aimbot" or "I can't hit an HW standing still in the yard for 30 seconds." There never seems to be an in-between.

[BinaryLife]

I think we can all agree that it sucks when we're told how to play on a public server (which is where I was by the way, a public server at the time). If we're playing a clan style match I can understand a team wanting their players to be certain classes and play certain positions. There's screwing around, and there's playing hardcore. The fact is, if a teammate tells me "Hey, we need a soldier and we need you be defense." Then sure, I'll switch, and I'll play defense. Mostly because I know that I'm still going to get action, and I'm going to work with my team to win.

But if people start screaming "Binary, Pyro's are lame! Stop being such a dumb class and be useful!" Then I'm more likely to get all pissed off about it. As I'm clearly meant to.

Like I was saying before. And like the top posts asks for, a solution; should be that we simply make a stronger effort to promote the good servers. We should not be spreading bad reviews or negative feedback, just only good things. If a person joins the forums after a bad experience looking for help, the community response should be "Wow, that sucks, I hate that too, try playing on this server, I've never had that happen there."

This way all the happy fun time players will be on the same grouping of servers and the jerks are alone. Let the jerks play with themselves.