Replace jump queue with auto-jump?

Bridget · 06-18-2009, 04:05 AM

Shouldn't we just get rid of jump queuing? Why not just modify the code so your character jumps non-stop as long as you're holding down the jump button? It wouldn't disturb the people who currently know how to bunny hop, it would still be compatible with the people who use jump queuing, and would make things more simple for those who are new.

I bring this up because I've actually heard the argument all the time that "I'd play FF more or my friends would consider it if they got rid of bunny hop or made it easier to use." and heard it tonight. We're obviously not going to get rid of bunny hop, so let's at least make it easier to learn.

I don't see how you could be against this, really. It doesn't take away from anything currently available in the game, it simply adds to it, beneficially. The only opposition to this suggestion would be elitists who can't make an argument other than bullshit like "Noobs should have to learn the hard way. Stfu or go play TF2" or "Making this game easy to learn equates to making this game take no skill." (LOL ILLOGICAL)

People new to bunny hop feel overwhelmed because there's seemingly so much involved in it. Why not make it more simple by getting rid of at least one of the things they worry about? When to jump or hold jump is still a decision they make. The jump queue is more convenient for people who already know how to bhop.

So.. Which?

**squeek.** · 06-18-2009, 04:16 AM

We have actually been testing this idea for a few weeks in the beta, and so far it's working out quite nicely. It greatly reduces unnecessary complexity; the difference between jump queue and auto-jump is minimal at best, and auto-jump is far more intuitive.

We also plan to include a client variable that people can use to turn off auto-jump (jump queue gives a tiny bit more precision when double jumping/trimping).

Good job reading the devs' minds, Bridget.

Bridget · 06-18-2009, 04:19 AM

Win.

VentuSag3 · 06-18-2009, 07:17 AM

Quote:

We also plan to include a client variable that people can use to turn off auto-jump (jump queue gives a tiny bit more precision when double jumping/trimping).

As long as this is included, I have no problems. If making Bhopping easier attracts more players ( which seems to be a common complaint on FF from the non-hardcore TFers ) then giving them a handicap is ok as long as the rest of us can toggle it off.

**Elmo** · 06-18-2009, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VentuSag3

As long as this is included, I have no problems. If making Bhopping easier attracts more players ( which seems to be a common complaint on FF from the non-hardcore TFers ) then giving them a handicap is ok as long as the rest of us can toggle it off.

I don't know if you know of myself, Caesium and of course AfterShok. All experienced players from the earlier days of tfc and I have to say I love the autojump. I loved it within the first 30 mins of trying it out. We can all play perfectly well with it on and I didn't notice anything unusual with its behaviour regarding double jumps, its really nice.

So I stress that you give it ago before turning the cvar straight off!! Its really not a handicap imo. You'll see

caesium · 06-18-2009, 09:30 AM

yeah, i thought to start with i'd want it off, but after playing around with it i realised that if you're actually good at movement then there's no reason to turn it off. it's not a handicap at all if you can adjust to it, it just let's you do some more cool stuff without getting rsi.

as far as i can see, the only reason you'd want to disable it is if you're an experienced player who's not particularly good at movement - perhaps someone who doesn't really understand the movement system, but has just trained their fingers to go through the same motions over and over without any scope for creativity involved - and so has great trouble adapting to do anything even slightly different. i don't know how many ppl there are in that category, but i think almost all experienced players will be pleasantly surprised if they give themselves a real chance to adjust to it, and as for new players clearly it makes it a load simpler for them to get into FF and do some basic movement that's hopefully fun

**Elmo** · 06-18-2009, 09:40 AM

caesium says it better lol

MightyLotu · 06-18-2009, 10:43 AM

i wouldn't use it, ff bhop/movement is already really easy, i guess just the thought of making things even more automatic (compared to tfc) sets me off
but that's probably gonna be easier for new players so i've got nothing against it

Hammock · 06-18-2009, 03:20 PM

No complaints here about the auto jump feature, but honestly FF has pretty much eliminated that part of the hardships of bhopping. In TFC the jump timing was 30% of the bhopping, in FF it's negligible.

The only problem with bhopping now is the air control/movement. It seems impossible to teach some of these people how to move in half circles and stuff.

To me the biggest problem with bhopping is the Forward key and the fact it kills bhopping, and telling people to stop using forward can be impossible.

I was trying to show a guy on a trimp map how to do some trimps, and he absolutely refused (not kept forgetting) to let go of the forward key. I (and a few others tried to convince him of this), an observer can tell right away if he's using the forward key, and when we did see him let go of it, he had way better results. But he kept saying it was "unatural" and he did better with the forward key, yet failed most of the jumps until he let go of it.

The rest of us didn't know what else to tell this person, he refused to admit the forward key was detrimental even with proof of success after releasing it, and we'd have to tell him 50 times before he'd even give it a shot.

Timing jumps in FF is not the problem, it takes a newb 30 minutes of practice alone to understand this part, it's that blasted forward key that makes it hard for beginners to learn.

MonoXideAtWork · 06-18-2009, 03:42 PM

I agree with banana. The I appreciate the decreased fatigue while using auto-jump, but if the goal is to level the playing field, I don't feel this is the area that needs attention.

**Elmo** · 06-18-2009, 04:34 PM

no it was never intended to level the playing field but its a step in that direction.

MonoXideAtWork · 06-18-2009, 04:50 PM

That begs the question, why not?

Iggy · 06-18-2009, 04:57 PM

Simple.... to keep a learning curve in there and therefor keep it as a "skill". Otherwise, just up the base movement speed and be done with it.

Hammock · 06-18-2009, 05:11 PM

I'm not saying the forward key should be used for "true bhop" I'm just saying that maybe pressing the forward key doesn't "kill" the bhop, if that's even possible with the movement engine.

MonoXideAtWork · 06-18-2009, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iggy

Simple.... to keep a learning curve in there and therefor keep it as a "skill". Otherwise, just up the base movement speed and be done with it.

Its not a learning curve at all imo, it's what is referred to as an experience curve. By using a system of movement that is antiquated by today's standards, we are actively catering to players who have played games like this in the past.

If we continue to view bhopping as a "skill" itself, then new comers will continue to be turned off due to having to have a prerequisite skillset to as an entry to even begin learning the unique features of this game, which would be the learning curve.

Bridget · 06-18-2009, 06:40 PM

In comparison to running, bunny hop is a trade off movement, but I reconsider the whole topic because of what a new player said last night: "I shouldn't have to learn how to bunny hop to keep up with people. It's difficult trying to land a backstab on a Soldier that can outrun me, a Spy, via bunny hop."

Of course, I told him bunny hop wasn't mandatory to play. I suggested he could use the tranq gun to slow the Soldier and go in for the backstab. But, tranq aim is an aspect of the Spy that takes skill and should take skill, as well as dedication, determination, and practice to use it well. Using weapons effectively should take time and effort to learn, but something as basic as movement shouldn't be on a new player's worry list, especially considering he's trying to learn all the other aspects of Fortress Forever. Forgetting to mention, using the tranq gun on someone you want to backstab is usually suicide.

Mono was telling me about some movement system in Warsow. Apparently, all you have to do is hold forward, hold down the jump button, and you would constantly gain speed until you hit a cap. To move around corners or in circles or whatever, you'd simply just move your mouse to 'pilot' your character.

You could toggle it in the options. New or classic, apparently. So, no one was left out. Those who bhopped the old way had their settings, and beginners had their setting. I actually like this idea, and if it could ever be tested for the Source engine.. it should be a consideration for FF.

Last, people who think making bhop easier will take away 'skill' are really pathetic. Bunny hop originated as a movement glitch. Players learned how to do the movement (no matter how complicated) because it was a 'learn or don't bhop' situation; They didn't have the ability (we do) to modify bunny hop in detail and in general. It wasn't a piece of code.

Modern games just recreate the movement because it's so familiar. How we bunnyhop is that way because it's familiar, not because it's the 'way' of bhop. Any form of more simple bunny hop should be embraced. Keep the 'classic' way of performing the bhop because of muscle memory, yeah, but things that are overly complicated don't default to more skill. So, to conclude: bhop should definitely be easier for beginners to learn, the way we bunny hop now is not the 'holy grail' or right way to do it, and these baddies who play competitive play all the time, grow arrogant, and want to ruin the game for its actual fans need to go home.

Oh, and by the way.. I haven't played FF in a while, so perhaps these people have gathered in the time I was absent, but the Talos Group seems to house a ton of new players when its active. Hell, we even got really annoying kids who spam the mic, just like all the other popular games. This is a good sign, hm?

Bosley · 06-19-2009, 12:04 AM

so this is just a thought, and probably not a very good one so dont derail this thread by whining at me, but what about a sprint button a la bf2? if the claim is that it shouldn't take a lot of skill just to keep up it doesn't get much easier than holding down a button and serpentining. but this isn't a 'win-win' like having an auto-jump feature that can easily be turned off so i dunno. i think an auto-jump feature would be a good thing so i won't be a naysayer.

and yea, talos and ot seem to be getting some newer people lately but the rest of the servers, maybe with the exception of 1 eu server and obviously some match servers, are dead most of the time. the server i admin for, east coast ff, hasn't had a full house since april. and even when we did back then it was mostly talos/ot regulars.

hlstriker · 06-19-2009, 12:43 AM

I'm all for auto-bhop while holding your jump button.

Quote:

Originally Posted by squeek.

jump queue gives a tiny bit more precision when double jumping/trimping

Why would this be? I would imagine it would be the other way around.

**squeek.** · 06-19-2009, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hlstriker

Why would this be? I would imagine it would be the other way around.

Sometimes you trimp or doublejump when you don't want to with auto-jump. You can do faster doublejumps with it, though.

hlstriker · 06-19-2009, 05:07 AM

Ok I see what you mean now. I have an idea though.

What if it were made so you had to let go of jump, then hold it again to do a trimp (pretty much how the jump queue is now).

So basically your first jump of a new jump hold sequence is the only one that can count for a trimp. This will make it so you don't randomly go shooting into the air when you don't want to.

Imo this is a better solution than the cvar idea.

View Poll Results: Keep queue jump or modify to non-stop jump?
Queue jumps by holding jump in air before you land.	10	35.71%
Jump non-stop as long as you hold down your jump key.	18	64.29%
Voters: 28. You may not vote on this poll

06-18-2009, 04:05 AM	#1
Bridget Banned Join Date: Sep 2008 Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times	Replace jump queue with auto-jump? Shouldn't we just get rid of jump queuing? Why not just modify the code so your character jumps non-stop as long as you're holding down the jump button? It wouldn't disturb the people who currently know how to bunny hop, it would still be compatible with the people who use jump queuing, and would make things more simple for those who are new. I bring this up because I've actually heard the argument all the time that "I'd play FF more or my friends would consider it if they got rid of bunny hop or made it easier to use." and heard it tonight. We're obviously not going to get rid of bunny hop, so let's at least make it easier to learn. I don't see how you could be against this, really. It doesn't take away from anything currently available in the game, it simply adds to it, beneficially. The only opposition to this suggestion would be elitists who can't make an argument other than bullshit like "Noobs should have to learn the hard way. Stfu or go play TF2" or "Making this game easy to learn equates to making this game take no skill." (LOL ILLOGICAL) People new to bunny hop feel overwhelmed because there's seemingly so much involved in it. Why not make it more simple by getting rid of at least one of the things they worry about? When to jump or hold jump is still a decision they make. The jump queue is more convenient for people who already know how to bhop. So.. Which? Last edited by Bridget; 06-18-2009 at 04:13 AM.

06-18-2009, 04:16 AM	#2
squeek. Stuff Do-er Lua Team Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Northern California Class/Position: Rallygun Shooter Gametype: Conc tag (you just wait) Affiliations: Mustache Brigade Posts Rated Helpful 352 Times	We have actually been testing this idea for a few weeks in the beta, and so far it's working out quite nicely. It greatly reduces unnecessary complexity; the difference between jump queue and auto-jump is minimal at best, and auto-jump is far more intuitive. We also plan to include a client variable that people can use to turn off auto-jump (jump queue gives a tiny bit more precision when double jumping/trimping). Good job reading the devs' minds, Bridget. __________________ #FF.Pickup ¤ Fortress-Forever pickups My Non-official Maps Released FF_DM_Squeek - FF_2Mesa3_Classic - FF_Siege_Classic Beta FF_Myth - FF_Redlight_Greenlight Sick of the people on the internet, always moanin'. They just moan. - Karl Pilkington Last edited by squeek.; 06-18-2009 at 04:17 AM.

06-18-2009, 09:40 AM	#7
Elmo Gets tickled by FF Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: UK Class/Position: Med Solly HW Gametype: Any/CTF Posts Rated Helpful 41 Times	caesium says it better lol __________________ Support FF: Done: ff_monkey Done: ff_bases Done: ff_warpath Forever Doing: ff_medieval (beta#99999999)

06-18-2009, 04:34 PM	#11
Elmo Gets tickled by FF Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: UK Class/Position: Med Solly HW Gametype: Any/CTF Posts Rated Helpful 41 Times	no it was never intended to level the playing field but its a step in that direction. __________________ Support FF: Done: ff_monkey Done: ff_bases Done: ff_warpath Forever Doing: ff_medieval (beta#99999999)

06-18-2009, 04:19 AM	#3
Bridget Banned Join Date: Sep 2008 Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times	Win.

06-18-2009, 09:30 AM	#6
caesium Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: europe Class/Position: anything Gametype: everything Affiliations: #teamfail Posts Rated Helpful 27 Times	yeah, i thought to start with i'd want it off, but after playing around with it i realised that if you're actually good at movement then there's no reason to turn it off. it's not a handicap at all if you can adjust to it, it just let's you do some more cool stuff without getting rsi. as far as i can see, the only reason you'd want to disable it is if you're an experienced player who's not particularly good at movement - perhaps someone who doesn't really understand the movement system, but has just trained their fingers to go through the same motions over and over without any scope for creativity involved - and so has great trouble adapting to do anything even slightly different. i don't know how many ppl there are in that category, but i think almost all experienced players will be pleasantly surprised if they give themselves a real chance to adjust to it, and as for new players clearly it makes it a load simpler for them to get into FF and do some basic movement that's hopefully fun

06-18-2009, 10:43 AM	#8
MightyLotu Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Belgium Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times	i wouldn't use it, ff bhop/movement is already really easy, i guess just the thought of making things even more automatic (compared to tfc) sets me off but that's probably gonna be easier for new players so i've got nothing against it

06-18-2009, 03:20 PM	#9
Hammock D&A Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 13 Times	No complaints here about the auto jump feature, but honestly FF has pretty much eliminated that part of the hardships of bhopping. In TFC the jump timing was 30% of the bhopping, in FF it's negligible. The only problem with bhopping now is the air control/movement. It seems impossible to teach some of these people how to move in half circles and stuff. To me the biggest problem with bhopping is the Forward key and the fact it kills bhopping, and telling people to stop using forward can be impossible. I was trying to show a guy on a trimp map how to do some trimps, and he absolutely refused (not kept forgetting) to let go of the forward key. I (and a few others tried to convince him of this), an observer can tell right away if he's using the forward key, and when we did see him let go of it, he had way better results. But he kept saying it was "unatural" and he did better with the forward key, yet failed most of the jumps until he let go of it. The rest of us didn't know what else to tell this person, he refused to admit the forward key was detrimental even with proof of success after releasing it, and we'd have to tell him 50 times before he'd even give it a shot. Timing jumps in FF is not the problem, it takes a newb 30 minutes of practice alone to understand this part, it's that blasted forward key that makes it hard for beginners to learn.

06-18-2009, 03:42 PM	#10
MonoXideAtWork Pub Allstar! Beta Tester Join Date: Aug 2008 Class/Position: under en kvinna Gametype: Capture the Flag Affiliations: Eternal Order, Must be h4x, Mono's happy funtime. Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I agree with banana. The I appreciate the decreased fatigue while using auto-jump, but if the goal is to level the playing field, I don't feel this is the area that needs attention.

06-18-2009, 04:50 PM	#12
MonoXideAtWork Pub Allstar! Beta Tester Join Date: Aug 2008 Class/Position: under en kvinna Gametype: Capture the Flag Affiliations: Eternal Order, Must be h4x, Mono's happy funtime. Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	That begs the question, why not?

06-18-2009, 05:11 PM	#14
Hammock D&A Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 13 Times	I'm not saying the forward key should be used for "true bhop" I'm just saying that maybe pressing the forward key doesn't "kill" the bhop, if that's even possible with the movement engine.

06-18-2009, 06:40 PM	#16
Bridget Banned Join Date: Sep 2008 Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times	In comparison to running, bunny hop is a trade off movement, but I reconsider the whole topic because of what a new player said last night: "I shouldn't have to learn how to bunny hop to keep up with people. It's difficult trying to land a backstab on a Soldier that can outrun me, a Spy, via bunny hop." Of course, I told him bunny hop wasn't mandatory to play. I suggested he could use the tranq gun to slow the Soldier and go in for the backstab. But, tranq aim is an aspect of the Spy that takes skill and should take skill, as well as dedication, determination, and practice to use it well. Using weapons effectively should take time and effort to learn, but something as basic as movement shouldn't be on a new player's worry list, especially considering he's trying to learn all the other aspects of Fortress Forever. Forgetting to mention, using the tranq gun on someone you want to backstab is usually suicide. Mono was telling me about some movement system in Warsow. Apparently, all you have to do is hold forward, hold down the jump button, and you would constantly gain speed until you hit a cap. To move around corners or in circles or whatever, you'd simply just move your mouse to 'pilot' your character. You could toggle it in the options. New or classic, apparently. So, no one was left out. Those who bhopped the old way had their settings, and beginners had their setting. I actually like this idea, and if it could ever be tested for the Source engine.. it should be a consideration for FF. Last, people who think making bhop easier will take away 'skill' are really pathetic. Bunny hop originated as a movement glitch. Players learned how to do the movement (no matter how complicated) because it was a 'learn or don't bhop' situation; They didn't have the ability (we do) to modify bunny hop in detail and in general. It wasn't a piece of code. Modern games just recreate the movement because it's so familiar. How we bunnyhop is that way because it's familiar, not because it's the 'way' of bhop. Any form of more simple bunny hop should be embraced. Keep the 'classic' way of performing the bhop because of muscle memory, yeah, but things that are overly complicated don't default to more skill. So, to conclude: bhop should definitely be easier for beginners to learn, the way we bunny hop now is not the 'holy grail' or right way to do it, and these baddies who play competitive play all the time, grow arrogant, and want to ruin the game for its actual fans need to go home. Oh, and by the way.. I haven't played FF in a while, so perhaps these people have gathered in the time I was absent, but the Talos Group seems to house a ton of new players when its active. Hell, we even got really annoying kids who spam the mic, just like all the other popular games. This is a good sign, hm?

06-19-2009, 12:04 AM	#17
Bosley Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: 69.12.108.79:27015 Affiliations: EastCoastTF2.com Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	so this is just a thought, and probably not a very good one so dont derail this thread by whining at me, but what about a sprint button a la bf2? if the claim is that it shouldn't take a lot of skill just to keep up it doesn't get much easier than holding down a button and serpentining. but this isn't a 'win-win' like having an auto-jump feature that can easily be turned off so i dunno. i think an auto-jump feature would be a good thing so i won't be a naysayer. and yea, talos and ot seem to be getting some newer people lately but the rest of the servers, maybe with the exception of 1 eu server and obviously some match servers, are dead most of the time. the server i admin for, east coast ff, hasn't had a full house since april. and even when we did back then it was mostly talos/ot regulars.

06-19-2009, 05:07 AM	#20
hlstriker QUAD ROCKET Server Owner Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Jul 2007 Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: Rocket Jumping Affiliations: -g1 ]qS[ -eC- :e0: [ESAD] Posts Rated Helpful 11 Times	Ok I see what you mean now. I have an idea though. What if it were made so you had to let go of jump, then hold it again to do a trimp (pretty much how the jump queue is now). So basically your first jump of a new jump hold sequence is the only one that can count for a trimp. This will make it so you don't randomly go shooting into the air when you don't want to. Imo this is a better solution than the cvar idea.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)