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Old 01-24-2008, 06:28 PM   #41
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I really don't see why people don't like them. They still take some skill to use and you can easly draw your enemies into you're piptrap with them, so...they're still serving the same purpose.
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Old 01-24-2008, 06:32 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow
I am deeply dissatisfied with the new blue pipes.
You can't DM enemies far away, you can't use them as temporary traps, they're far too easy to spam, demoman no longer needs to rely on team mates for support... it feels wrong and makes me not want to play.
I am also not thrilled with the dramatic lowering of the blue pipe timers because of this reason, but a shorter timer is better than the long one it had.

The removal of the caltrops for the scout irks me because it's not a useless grenade. I use it quite frequently.

I'm also not too thrilled with the jump pad, because defensive classes like the HW guy shouldn't be able to use it to get into the enemy base and literally become an offensive class..... I mean, concs already exist, they do no damage, and if you are a medic, the conc effect is limited compared to the scout.

IMO, the jump pad will become similar to the Teleporter that was in TFC, a headache.
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Old 01-24-2008, 06:44 PM   #43
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KubeDawg, IMHO ur wrong. Some annoying snipers will still be able to headshot heavygays in the air, so its not that wrong. And also makes game faster
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Old 01-24-2008, 06:46 PM   #44
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The tele was mainly a headache b/c defenders would use it to get back into position instantly. So far, that's much less doable w/ the jump pad (it won't warp you through walls in your own base like the tele). Still testing it, though.
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Old 01-24-2008, 06:51 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Skanky Butterpuss
all i can say is 4est was a bitchass pyro on aardvark ramp during the playtest
Hah! Too true

Flamed my ass too many times!
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Old 01-24-2008, 06:53 PM   #46
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AWESOME!
but i dont like you removed the caltrops. you made a buildable thing, which makes you jump higher. like in TF2.
i say make the caltrops like they were in TFC, or make the fuse time shorter so they can be used like in TFC, and like in FF 1.11
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Old 01-24-2008, 07:13 PM   #47
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RE: blue pipes
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow
You can't DM enemies far away
You can't DM enemies far away with the old blue pipes either. They take far too long to explode, and enemies can just see them coming and run out of the way. Sure, you can SPAM them and hope they hit someone coming around the corner, but thats something that is not good for the game. If you want an FF full of demomen spamming pipes from well attic into the respawn, and over the top of the well bridge etc, then thats a different FF than I want

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow
you can't use them as temporary traps
It's not a trap if you don't have a detonate button. if you know where the enemy is going to be in 2.5 seconds, just shoot your blue pipe 1.4 seconds later than normal for the exact same effect. No difference except your trap will be much more accurate

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow
they're far too easy to spam
Spam means shooting pipes without knowing if someone is there or not. Spam is something you can do with 2.5 second pipes, spamming the dustbowl grates from the safety of the house. Spam with 1 sec pipes isn't really spam, and requires you to be pretty close to the enemy (and with only 120 armor, you're pretty vunerable if u get close)

If you mean "they're far too easy to use effectively against people you can see", well yes, thats the idea Who wants a useless weapon? Remember that the demo weapons share clips, so if u use all your blues deathmatching, then a scout comes in and u have to det your pipetrap, you can't lay another trap until you reload all your pipes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow
demoman no longer needs to rely on team mates for support
This is a deliberate change. Having to run away from every single class that DMs you as demoman is crap.

Also, you missed off the way that demomen can now easily blue-pipe jump / run, which is an awesome feature.

IMO demoman is now a very fun class to play. Sure it needs some tweaks. (thats what beta is for!) Play it a bit more and I'm sure you will learn to love it too
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Old 01-24-2008, 07:13 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiggles
The tele was mainly a headache b/c defenders would use it to get back into position instantly. So far, that's much less doable w/ the jump pad (it won't warp you through walls in your own base like the tele). Still testing it, though.
Tele's were also a headache because two engies can work together and build their sg's in places that should never have sg's. Two way teleporters to respawn and back to the sg. Plus offensive tele's although fun to play with, could ultimately send the heaviest classes directly into the enemy's base.

I couldn't count the number of times, my team took over the enemy's basement in 2fort with the use of tele's, and a constant stream of medics/hw's sollies.

They were a fun novelty item, but could seriously destroy the intent of a map.

How do the jump pads work exactly? Does the scout only get 1? What happens after he places it? Does he have to go back to pick it up? Or does it self destruct after a time? Or self destruct once triggered by the scout? Can it be destroyed by enemy fire? How fast does it take to place it? Instant? Is it like setting an sg? With a buildable timer? Is it small enough to be place pretty much anywhere? Or is it big and can only go in large areas?

Sounds like a cool idea, but I don't really know anything about it other than the effect of it.
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Old 01-24-2008, 07:16 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammock
Tele's were also a headache because two engies can work together and build their sg's in places that should never have sg's. Two way teleporters to respawn and back to the sg. Plus offensive tele's although fun to play with, could ultimately send the heaviest classes directly into the enemy's base.

I couldn't count the number of times, my team took over the enemy's basement in 2fort with the use of tele's, and a constant stream of medics/hw's sollies.

They were a fun novelty item, but could seriously destroy the intent of a map.

How do the jump pads work exactly? Does the scout only get 1? What happens after he places it? Does he have to go back to pick it up? Or does it self destruct after a time? Or self destruct once triggered by the scout? Can it be destroyed by enemy fire? How fast does it take to place it? Instant? Is it like setting an sg? With a buildable timer? Is it small enough to be place pretty much anywhere? Or is it big and can only go in large areas?

Sounds like a cool idea, but I don't really know anything about it other than the effect of it.
From what I've heard the jump pad is RIDICULOUSLY powerful (base-to-base on aardvark?!). I'd say make it very low-powered, but enough to give a big boost when used in conjunction with a conc/gren (kinda like on the TFC map haste, but even less power).
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Old 01-24-2008, 07:18 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KubeDawg
I am also not thrilled with the dramatic lowering of the blue pipe timers because of this reason, but a shorter timer is better than the long one it had.
A shorter time is fine, but this is a huge difference. I would be fine with a more moderate/reasonable change to around 1.8 or 2.0 seconds, but as it stands, if you shoot a blue pipe straight up, it will explode just as it starts to fall back down. Standing on the catwalks in SD2 yard, you can't hit the ground unless you aim straight down, standing on the middle bunker, you can't reach front door. Standing on the upper area in the congestus flagroom, demoman can spam the RR entrance to hell and basically hit anyone on the floor at will. I don't think he needs a RL.
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Old 01-24-2008, 07:28 PM   #51
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RE: Jump pads

1 jump pad aint gonna make an offy HW a good idea We tried it in beta, and it still sucks. It is gonna make make offy pyros/demos/soldiers more possible, but because you are running a scout (who is spending a little time building pads, rather than running flags), it balances out (rather than 4 medics, perhaps you'll have 1 scout 1 sol 2 medics). Also, it's nowhere near as powerful as a conc. Right now you can just about clear the SD2 midmap from a pad at front door. (where as a conc takes you straight to balcony).

Answering your questions: A scout gets 1. It takes ~ 1 sec to build. It's about the same base size as a SG but only chest height. It self destructs on a timer. It's invincible to enemy fire. Enemies can use it. You can't det it. (the pad will be the subject to this weekends beta test so this could change!)

RE: "I've heard rah rah rah". I guess theres a big mouthed beta not telling you the full story Currently they are bugged due to collisions with solid state physics models which causes them to sometimes fire you 1 meter, sometimes 100. Jiggles just uploaded a fix. So yeah. Don't listen to them

RE: Caltrops

Caltrops are an ability which annoy the other team, rather than increasing the enjoyment of your team. The jump pad is the opposite. Caltrops are usually placed in the enemy base near defensive positions. Defenders stand there and as soon as they are placed they know where the caltrops are and don't stand on them. Offense come running in and get spiked. The only time they are useful is when defenders accidentally tread on them (didn't know there were there), and theres not much skill in accidentally treading on something. It's like being headshot by an aimbotter, nothing you can do about it except smash your head on your keyboard

Caltrops are also guilty to spawn spamming, front door spamming, etc. Stuff like that ruins the game. Yes i can see why they can be beneficial in certain situations, HOWEVER, the jump pad will be much better and I hope you'll thank me for it in the long run!
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Old 01-24-2008, 07:33 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow
Standing on the catwalks in SD2 yard, you can't hit the ground unless you aim straight down
Wait so you want to be able to spam the midmap from 100 miles up? Why am I not feeling for you? You're telling me you have to aim at your target? Crazy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow
standing on the middle bunker, you can't reach front door.
Maybe you shouldnt be spamming front door from the middle bunker? If you want to lame it up, you can still pipetrap it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow
Standing on the upper area in the congestus flagroom, demoman can spam the RR entrance to hell and basically hit anyone on the floor at will.
So you're saying that his weapon can be used to kill people? I'm not seeing the problem here! The same reasoning could you used to call the soldier overpowered. "He shoots stuff and they die!"
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Old 01-24-2008, 07:34 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AfterShock
RE: Jump pads

1 jump pad aint gonna make an offy HW a good idea We tried it in beta, and it still sucks. It is gonna make make offy pyros/demos/soldiers more possible, but because you are running a scout (who is spending a little time building pads, rather than running flags), it balances out (rather than 4 medics, perhaps you'll have 1 scout 1 sol 2 medics). Also, it's nowhere near as powerful as a conc. Right now you can just about clear the SD2 midmap from a pad at front door. (where as a conc takes you straight to balcony).

Answering your questions: A scout gets 1. It takes ~ 1 sec to build. It's about the same base size as a SG but only chest height. It self destructs on a timer. It's invincible to enemy fire. Enemies can use it. You can't det it. (the pad will be the subject to this weekends beta test so this could change!)
Okay. That sounds absolutely amazing. It'll make a diverse O a lot more viable for once.

But, what about jump pad used with a conc? Will that ruin some maps (cong, session is what I'm thinking; it'll make them even more O sided)?
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Old 01-24-2008, 07:35 PM   #54
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Wow, I have to be honest in saying when I stepped away from FF it would be for good because of the lack of direction...but I must say this will bring me back to try it again if not to play consistently.

In regards to the engy's not being buffed, perhaps something could be done with their dispensers...maybe an instant health/armor buff taking all of the resources out of the dispenser with a say...10 minute recharge...or perhaps a different SG version...maybe instead of rockets one that has a flamethrower...I don't know, don't think that engineers should get the shaft TBH.

The jump pad is a great idea, the yards on some maps (especially aardvark) are massive, and even if you're a soldier or pyro on offense, you can't help but getting pegged 9/10 times in the yard. I do feel however, that the distance a player travels should depend on their classes speed...i.e scouts get the most benefit while heavies/sollies benefit less as their role isn't specifically an offensive class, have to maintain a fair balance. We should keep in mind that in order to place a jump pad in a beneficial area, it will be exposed to enemy fire, and easily destroyable (disregard that, its indestructable...o_O) , you couldn't put a jump pad in a small room and have it benefit. Perhaps give spies an ability to convert a jump pad they find into one for their team, or have it change the direction the other team travels, so if the pad is sabotaged it will send the team flying in the opposite direction instead of the one desired.

All in all, I am very impressed with the work that the team has brought and the leadership that Aftershock has brought, Kudos devs!
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Old 01-24-2008, 07:37 PM   #55
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Rutabeggar:
Sabotageable Jump pads FTW!
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Old 01-24-2008, 07:37 PM   #56
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Yeah I should have added that the jump pad also prevents snipers locking down the midmap so much, and that horizontal velocity is added to by the pad, so faster classes will still get a faster push from it.
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Old 01-24-2008, 07:39 PM   #57
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I didnt found anything about 3 weapon slot system... Will it be implemented?
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Old 01-24-2008, 07:43 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adamido
Rutabeggar:
Sabotageable Jump pads FTW!

It could be quite entertaining, cloaking near one and watching a fatty thinking he's going to be super man and fly in to rescue his team only to see him fly backwards into a wall...
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Old 01-24-2008, 07:46 PM   #59
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^up
That's what I meant :P
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Old 01-24-2008, 07:49 PM   #60
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Man. Feels like the week before christmas!
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