Hitting the Server Revert Button.

[eomoyaff]

So basically with the three pub server's really left in this game, 2 of the 3 (that I know of) have either completely sidetracked the balance of the classes (all in the name of "fun") or have converted back to 2.42.

I know that Old Timers doesn't use the Laser grenade anymore, nor the slow field. They both have been changed back to the nail nade and the mirv. Though they did keep the pressure hit.

Talos kind of twisting things up. They removed the slowfield nade and put the mirv back in its' place. the pressure hit now launches players further then a jump pad does, and the laser nade practically kills any medium class in 2 to three swipes (depending on fall damage :P).

I'm uncertian if Kube left the patch the same. Then that server would indeed be the initial 2.43 server atm (via US.)

I mean, I don't want to put the dev's down but no one is using the initial patch.

Honestly I think I can agree with their reasons. While on one hand the patch has made AvD a blast, anything ctf is trash unless organized and even then it's kind of "meh."

I know that Grawsbane posted something about moving the laser nade counter clockwise, but honestly that wouldn't solve the problem with how easy it is to avoid it. Just bhop in that direction instead.

So my thoughts on this is what if instead of 3 lasers there were 6 instead. 3 moving clockwise, and 3 moving counter clockwise. It would make it a little more challenging to jump in between them and out again, and would make up for it's like of damage. I mean christ, it's a grenade. Who's ever heard of a grenade in this world that you can play jump rope with? Atleast with 6 lasers instead of three, that'd be one hell of a game of jump rope.

The pressure hit is a good idea and talos kind of add's a crazy flavor with their now portable jump pad with a gatling gun (hw, lol). Now "officially" I think their push is a little too strong, but when I'm looking to laugh at the expense of other's lives, then i absolutely enjoy the crazy ass pressure hit. I'm not even sure if that was intentional.

So ya, I don't have a lot of idea's on how to fix the issue, but the point being -- if admins are changing their server's back to the 2.42 patch settings, well then I believe the community (for what it is) has spoken, and they apparently don't like the changes, unfortunately.

I think it's time to start asking the actual community what they want. Wouldn't hurt.

Up next, I teach children how to juggle the limbs of a koala bear.

[angrypyro]

could still keep it at 3 lasers and just double the damage for touching the lasers

[squeek.]

We're not reverting. They don't represent "the community" (a single FF community is a joke of an idea anyway), they represent two specific server owners. They don't have good reasons for reverting, and you should boycott their servers if you disagree with them.

End of story.

[eomoyaff]

Originally Posted by squeek.

We're not reverting. They don't represent "the community" (a single FF community is a joke of an idea anyway), they represent two specific server owners. They don't have good reasons for reverting, and you should boycott their servers if you disagree with them.

End of story.

And those changes were made because a majority of those people who played the new patch on those server's didn't like what they were given. Thus the changes were made by the admins to support those opinions so players would continue to play.

And stating "we're not reverting" is completely unrelated to what I was talking about. I didn't say anything about the dev's reverting. I'm stating that the admins are changing their shit back because that's what the people wanted. Toss a dog a bone that's covered in shit -- only a the dumb dogs will chew it.

Start asking what the community wants for once, nuff said.

... Or discuss the features with just a small group of people and release more shit that nobody likes.

[NeonLight]

If this is bothering you so much, why not just stay playing on those servers and leave this be. The devs are going to keep doing their thing as they feel it's the right direction for the mod and I completely agree with it. Everything evolves and to be honest the way FF played before was far inferior to how it plays now (and will). Every class is getting it's own special tweaks to either separate its self and be unique or to balance the fact that some things were stupidly overpowered. These changes yes should deal with community interaction but with the game state that other servers are using make the game play not worth keeping contact if they just want to edit the files. I do like that OT made their server name Neo-FF, that at least gives some indicator that the server isn't default. I really hope we can address this problem and remove the ability to be able to change those settings. It really is splitting the community that we have into 3 separate parts.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

And those changes were made because a majority of those people who played the new patch on those server's didn't like what they were given. Thus the changes were made by the admins to support those opinions so players would continue to play.

And stating "we're not reverting" is completely unrelated to what I was talking about. I didn't say anything about the dev's reverting. I'm stating that the admins are changing their shit back because that's what the people wanted. Toss a dog a bone that's covered in shit -- only a the dumb dogs will chew it.

Start asking what the community wants for once, nuff said.

... Or discuss the features with just a small group of people and release more shit that nobody likes.

...who is this community you keep referring to? How do I tell who is part of it and who's not? Is it a secret club that meets offline to discuss FF? Because from what I've seen in this thread, this thread and from talking to people directly, most people like the changes and disagree with these servers' changes.

"Appeal to the community" seems to be a very frequently used FF-specific fallacy. How exactly should I go about asking the community what they want?

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

And those changes were made because a majority of those people who played the new patch on those server's didn't like what they were given. Thus the changes were made by the admins to support those opinions so players would continue to play.

And stating "we're not reverting" is completely unrelated to what I was talking about. I didn't say anything about the dev's reverting. I'm stating that the admins are changing their shit back because that's what the people wanted. Toss a dog a bone that's covered in shit -- only a the dumb dogs will chew it.

Start asking what the community wants for once, nuff said.

... Or discuss the features with just a small group of people and release more shit that nobody likes.

Didn't I ban you Bridget?

Also Kube's Server is 2.43, not some stupid mix of 2.43 and 2.41. As is mine, minus the snipers.

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by Ricey

Also Kube's Server is 2.43, not some stupid mix of 2.43 and 2.41. As is mine, minus the snipers.

Fucking Jew! Can't stand to pay for Sniper bullets, eh?

Seriously, though... I am boycotting any server not running 2.43(although from what I heard in one of those threads Squeek pointed to, that O-T is at least letting people know they modified their server to run the mix). Not because I hate those servers, but because I want to play the current version of FF. It still needs work, but that's been the story of FF since 1.0.

If the people who frequent those servers want those changes.... fine. Just let people outside of their little world know that it's not a stock version of FF.

For myself, I have a blast on Kube's server, and will recommend it to any FF players out there.

[Dexter]

im gay

[eomoyaff]

Originally Posted by squeek.

...who is this community you keep referring to? How do I tell who is part of it and who's not? Is it a secret club that meets offline to discuss FF? Because from what I've seen in this thread, this thread and from talking to people directly, most people like the changes and disagree with these servers' changes.

"Appeal to the community" seems to be a very frequently used FF-specific fallacy. How exactly should I go about asking the community what they want?

Unless you just ignore the people who actually say they don't like the patch, via half the people I play with in pub server's. Not sure how aware you are of how many people that play this game, that don't actually come to the forums. You want input, start playing on public servers. Quit showing up everyone once in a while in pickups and rarely in pub servers that only contain pickup players, and actually learn more about your community (not just the ones on the forum.)

As far as asking the community, if you're actually serious about that, then I can toss out a several organized idea's that are smart, not overzealous, and is easy to comprehend so you don't get the wrong idea (again.)

No offense Squeek, but I NEVER see you in any of the usual pubs getting players opinions who play every day. You'd be surprised how valid some of their reasons are for going back on the older patch type. And I'm not going to post them for you, or find them for you, that's your job, as a developer, to grasp an understanding of how EVERYONE (not specifically) feels about these patches.

I mean I do disagree with the fact that these servers are making those changes, but I can semi-understand their reasons why (despite how much it might make the dev's here feel like their time was wasted.)

------------------------

Ricey, you're fat, shut up and run a laps around your even fatter mother

[eomoyaff]

Originally Posted by NeoNL

If this is bothering you so much, why not just stay playing on those servers and leave this be. The devs are going to keep doing their thing as they feel it's the right direction for the mod and I completely agree with it. Everything evolves and to be honest the way FF played before was far inferior to how it plays now (and will). Every class is getting it's own special tweaks to either separate its self and be unique or to balance the fact that some things were stupidly overpowered. These changes yes should deal with community interaction but with the game state that other servers are using make the game play not worth keeping contact if they just want to edit the files. I do like that OT made their server name Neo-FF, that at least gives some indicator that the server isn't default. I really hope we can address this problem and remove the ability to be able to change those settings. It really is splitting the community that we have into 3 separate parts.

I actually agree with this. I'm not saying I like that they changed the servers around despite all the dev's work.

[Gwarsbane]

Actually Moya, I did say have 2 sets of 3 lasers, 1 set moving clock wise, the other moving counter clockwise, while at the same time the grenade floats up and down higher then it does now. I also suggested some sort of pulse at the end that could do some kind of damage.

Just having the 3 lasers go in the opposite direction would be silly because it wouldn't solve anything, it would just change their direction, which is why I wouldn't have said that.

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

Unless you just ignore the people who actually say they don't like the patch, via half the people I play with in pub server's. Not sure how aware you are of how many people that play this game, that don't actually come to the forums. You want input, start playing on public servers. Quit showing up everyone once in a while in pickups and rarely in pub servers that only contain pickup players, and actually learn more about your community (not just the ones on the forum.)

As far as asking the community, if you're actually serious about that, then I can toss out a several organized idea's that are smart, not overzealous, and is easy to comprehend so you don't get the wrong idea (again.)

No offense Squeek, but I NEVER see you in any of the usual pubs getting players opinions who play every day. You'd be surprised how valid some of their reasons are for going back on the older patch type. And I'm not going to post them for you, or find them for you, that's your job, as a developer, to grasp an understanding of how EVERYONE (not specifically) feels about these patches.

I mean I do disagree with the fact that these servers are making those changes, but I can semi-understand their reasons why (despite how much it might make the dev's here feel like their time was wasted.)

As a tester, why are you shy about bringing peoples opinions to the table? If you hear about concerns and as you say, "valid points"..... why not contribute that much? You're out there.... you hear it. Exactly what is your reason for not typing it up?

This rather reminds me of a conversation I had with my employer today. There was a complaint that "no one filled the soap dispenser in the ladies bathroom". I pointed out the fact that the general attitude is "It's not my job!". At that point, the employer in question replied that "instead of replacing the soap dispenser, that we should replace the people who have the 'it's not my job' attitude." I gave him a thumbs up on that, because, to be honest(in the case I'm refering to) "your job" is doing whatever the owners of the company tell you to do. I coined a phrase earlier this year; "Step up, or step aside."

That is where I see the relation to your "I am not going to post...." statement. As beta testers, it is our job to test what is being implemented... but it's not limited to that. It is our "job" to inform the devs(especially where they lack either the time or inclination to discover on their own) of the communities desires for the game. You may say that it's not.... but I say it is. WE are their link to the community that isn't just here. On these forums, they can see what people say. Outside of the forums, they may not see what people say. Not all of the devs play pub servers, but many of us testers do. Not all of them play pick-up games... but many of us testers do.

Ultimately, they decide what changes happen to the game... but if they are uninformed, or worse; misinformed, about what people want.... they will simply go on the information they have. If we don't give them what information we have... then WE are to blame for the game going in an "unpopular" direction. Be part of the solution, not the problem!

Before you go off on a "Bridget" tangent... remember, his major issue wasn't that he was wrong, but how he presented his arguements. He would badger and berate people with a wall of text... and toss a suggestion in there somewhere. Fact is; if someone starts off an e-mail to you with "Hey, you fucking loser dickhead!" you're going to ignore it, no matter if a good idea is buried in there or not.

[Dexter]

EVERYONE (not specifically)

[WiFiDi]

okay would it be okay if i said i don't want this at all. i would probably stop playing as the old patch i had so many problems with (it was boring dull etc... im just now really starting to enjoy the game. and the new stuff makes the game better than the old stuff by far at least that's just my opinion.

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by WiFiDi

okay would it be okay if i said i don't want this at all. i would probably stop playing as the old patch i had so many problems with (it was boring dull etc... im just now really starting to enjoy the game. and the new stuff makes the game better than the old stuff by far at least that's just my opinion.

It's easy enough... just populate the servers that don't have these alterations, and avoid those that do. The way I see it, some people may like that.... so let them have their modified server(s). If that's not your style, join the servers that are running the mod as it's meant to be played.

[KubeDawg]

I don't mind playing in Talos and can work around some of the changes they have made. They're a good group of people there. For most, it comes down to what server has the most people in it, or often in FF's case, the server that has people in it. I mean I do the same thing. I went into the DMC server by complete accident because I didn't even think of it being an EU server because it had people in it.

FF is only a game, yes, but it's also a social experience for a lot of people who come to play. From what I've seen and heard, there are some flaws in the rules set in my opinion from the Talos server, by allowing blatant racism used by both players and admins alike. This is just my experience, I cannot speak for others. I created a server in hopes to do my part to try to help the future of this mod by having a server to go to that creates a fun experience for everyone every single time. I also created it, not to try to compete with any other server, but to sort of act as one, the people of FF, sort of like a brethren server. I want your server to be completely full so I can get some in my server, so that's 2 servers with people in it. Maybe tomorrow we can have 3 servers with people or 4 or 5 etc.

I'm just sick and tired of all the pessimism I've seen going on lately. People need to be fighting for this mod and they can't do that by bitching to the devs about how shitty the patch is or acting like idiots in the servers treating people with disrespect. None of that matters now. We can't just sit by and let FF go by the wayside. I know some people don't like the patch, I think a lot can be done to improve upon as well. We just need to stay constructive and maybe try praising the devs on the stuff they hit home runs with instead of bashing the stuff you don't like. It's so much easier to bitch about something than to do otherwise. That's the case about pretty much everything in society.

Anyway, I don't mean to offend Talos, I'd just rather not hear NIGGER every 15 seconds.

Cheers

[eomoyaff]

Originally Posted by Iggy

As a tester, why are you shy about bringing peoples opinions to the table? If you hear about concerns and as you say, "valid points"..... why not contribute that much? You're out there.... you hear it. Exactly what is your reason for not typing it up?

This rather reminds me of a conversation I had with my employer today. There was a complaint that "no one filled the soap dispenser in the ladies bathroom". I pointed out the fact that the general attitude is "It's not my job!". At that point, the employer in question replied that "instead of replacing the soap dispenser, that we should replace the people who have the 'it's not my job' attitude." I gave him a thumbs up on that, because, to be honest(in the case I'm refering to) "your job" is doing whatever the owners of the company tell you to do. I coined a phrase earlier this year; "Step up, or step aside."

That is where I see the relation to your "I am not going to post...." statement. As beta testers, it is our job to test what is being implemented... but it's not limited to that. It is our "job" to inform the devs(especially where they lack either the time or inclination to discover on their own) of the communities desires for the game. You may say that it's not.... but I say it is. WE are their link to the community that isn't just here. On these forums, they can see what people say. Outside of the forums, they may not see what people say. Not all of the devs play pub servers, but many of us testers do. Not all of them play pick-up games... but many of us testers do.

Ultimately, they decide what changes happen to the game... but if they are uninformed, or worse; misinformed, about what people want.... they will simply go on the information they have. If we don't give them what information we have... then WE are to blame for the game going in an "unpopular" direction. Be part of the solution, not the problem!

Before you go off on a "Bridget" tangent... remember, his major issue wasn't that he was wrong, but how he presented his arguements. He would badger and berate people with a wall of text... and toss a suggestion in there somewhere. Fact is; if someone starts off an e-mail to you with "Hey, you fucking loser dickhead!" you're going to ignore it, no matter if a good idea is buried in there or not.

You're too convincing lol, and right. But I want to make a few points if you don't mind o_O...

If it is my job as a beta tester to tell developers what people are saying about their work, then where does it state that in the beta testing duties list, please link it, because I was practically unaware.

At the same time I feel as well as some other's that Squeek is a little anal about idea's popping in from other minds outside of the development team. And I personally think hearing those minds would apply a better inspiration to the team. Honest question here -- How many idea's were actually added to this patch that came from regular player's who were not apart of the beta team or dev team? Who came up with the laser grenade, the slow field, the pressure hit, the jump pad, etc etc. I think it'd be fair to reveal the credit of those idea's to the people who brought those ideas.

Infact, I think that any new features that will be added to this game (or already has been) should be revealed to everyone as a future notice so that we can all comment and opinionate, then perhaps add a suggestion to those practices to better insure that people will be more pleased with the patch, then not.

My intentions here are not to belittle any of you as I hold a lot of appreciation for what you guys do and are doing with what little time you have. I'm not complaining about how long it's taking to put out a patch, like some people. I'm greatful for that. If you guys want me to grab opinions from others to share to you, the dev's, then well here you go:

A.) A player just up and shut down his server and his training guild idea because he felt the patch was completely crap. (the patch didn't really sound too good to him, and really didn't meet his expectations obviously, but you can't please everyone. That's just the way some people are.)

B.) Other players prevented the new patch by completely changing around their features of the most recent patch in hope to keep their player base sound and solid, but the truth is, most people who still play this game play it because they've made some sort of relation with other players, thus carrying a wanting to play with them to make the atmosphere funner and better (oh hey, this bud is playing FF, I think I'll join him). Honestly if you made new character textures of an HW wearing a diaper, and a scout with a speedo, and even a headless soldier, players would probably still play because it's the people that matter to them, instead of the patches. The only major curve in this road though is that instead of them saying "This game is awesome, dude," to the ones they enjoy playing with, they say "lol, this patch sucks." followed by their friends simply stating "lol, yep." as they continue to blow one another to ragdoll heaven.

C) TBD.

I don't mind that these people are changing their shit around to better please their playerbase (even though I believe they didn't really give the patch a good enough chance. To be honest, i think that unless you really have a an understanding of the games function's, classes, game modes, and advanced game methods, you're not going to accept the new material as well, or understand each new features purpose.) but you have to acknowledge people about making those changes before they come in to become confused.

There has to be a better way of organizing a system that let's players know what changes might/will be changed, before it happens, and allow them a voice to opinion their thoughts on those changes. And before you ask "so you want us to listen to everyone's idea's about things that are going on in the development of future patches?," I'm saying Yes.

When you say you ARE changing something, that doesn't allow other people time to opinionate whether they think it's a good idea or not, and don't have to be placed in the "This is the change, deal with it, or don't play" circle.

The beta testers can test the idea's, but when it comes to presenting them, I believe everyone should have a chance to voice what they think about it as those tests are going on.

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

what people are saying about their work, then where does it state that in the beta testing duties list, please link it, because I was practically unaware.

At the same time I feel as well as some other's that Squeek is a little anal about idea's popping in from other minds outside of the development team. And I personally think hearing those minds would apply a better inspiration to the team. Honest question here -- How many idea's were actually added to this patch that came from regular player's who were not apart of the beta team or dev team? Who came up with the laser grenade, the slow field, the pressure hit, the jump pad, etc etc. I think it'd be fair to reveal the credit of those idea's to the people who brought those ideas.

I highlighted that area, and if you don't believe me, go read the beta forums. But, I suggested something for the medic, and Squeek quickly coded it, not to what I had in mind, but none the less tried out a Beta Testers Idea. Also, this was before I was a web dev.

He has also tried out other ideas as well. You can't just suggest and idea, without arguing it, both the pros and cons and understand the concept of it.

[eomoyaff]

Originally Posted by Ricey

I highlighted that area, and if you don't believe me, go read the beta forums. But, I suggested something for the medic, and Squeek quickly coded it, not to what I had in mind, but none the less tried out a Beta Testers Idea. Also, this was before I was a web dev.

He has also tried out other ideas as well. You can't just suggest and idea, without arguing it, both the pros and cons and understand the concept of it.

You're apart of the team.