Is this a carbon copy of TF1.5 or are you improving on it? - Page 2

o_nezumi · 03-07-2006, 02:56 AM

If the pyros can kill, then you'll be dead before you get too annoyed. I think this is what the goal for balancing them should be. Also, yea, some sort of rj capability would be helpful. Or some sort of expanded movement capability.

o_kam · 03-07-2006, 03:09 AM

Pyro will fail if he's still annoying though.
Sure it's a weak class so that's a reason not use it, but if anyone does, it's instantly gay/lame since it takes absolutely no skill to be an annoying pyro and people just don't want to be annoyed like that.

If he is just beefed up it'll be frustrating that the annoyance is actually effective. Which just isn't fun.

So yeah, what Afx said.

Jiggles · 03-07-2006, 04:04 AM

I don't know. Outside of massive spamming of napalm grens (which is less annoying than spy gas spamming), I don't really find Pyros that annoying to play against. I find HWs more annoying, anyway. They take even less skill to hit you, and they can do so from pretty much any distance

o_gman55 · 03-07-2006, 07:07 AM

Please don't dumb-down the pyro class by buffing it too much. In Dustbowl, the pyro is a great class.

On defense, he softens up targets so the big guns can more easily take them out. And he disrupts the offense, slowing down their advance.

On offense, he can use his flame cannon to burn the engies crouching behind the SGs. On stage three, pyros will often strafe back and forth just behind the bridge to red's base, spamming the defenders with flame rockets.

I only ask that the flamethrower be adjusted to actually work. In TFC, it just sucks because the technology didn't exist at the time to make it work.

o_toffee · 03-07-2006, 08:47 AM

just giving the pyro the ability to rocket jump as well as the soldier would be a big boost to his usability as an offensive player

**mervaka** · 03-07-2006, 09:49 AM

indeed. giving the pyro a better jump and a bit more range on the flamethrower will make a worthy O class without overpowering it imo.

EDIT: oh, and the IC rockets need speeding up too!

o_valk · 03-07-2006, 11:35 AM

man, if its beefed up too much it will just be made -1 in leagues
so do whatever u want to it, in the end it will only kill pub play

o_afx · 03-07-2006, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggles

I don't know. Outside of massive spamming of napalm grens (which is less annoying than spy gas spamming), I don't really find Pyros that annoying to play against. I find HWs more annoying, anyway. They take even less skill to hit you, and they can do so from pretty much any distance

Im sure you'd find the hwg even more annoying if he could bhop around you at medic speed, whilst peppering you with blinding napalm

I can probably accept that giving him rjing ability(not on a par with the soldiers i stress, perhaps just 2fort balc capable)would be a reasonable boost to the class, but i definitely dont think his ability to damage should be increased as well. I guess the aim for the pyro should be to make it a class that can cause distractions as opposed to one thats going to get a lot of frags.

Jiggles · 03-07-2006, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gman55

Please don't dumb-down the pyro class by buffing it too much. In Dustbowl, the pyro is a great class.

On defense, he softens up targets so the big guns can more easily take them out. And he disrupts the offense, slowing down their advance.

On offense, he can use his flame cannon to burn the engies crouching behind the SGs. On stage three, pyros will often strafe back and forth just behind the bridge to red's base, spamming the defenders with flame rockets.

Yeah, he works much better in AvD, mainly because O doesn't have concs. If they did, they could conc right past him on D, and on O, he would be too slow. The problem is, there aren't a lot of gametypes outside AvD where Medics/Scouts don't get concs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gman55

I only ask that the flamethrower be adjusted to actually work. In TFC, it just sucks because the technology didn't exist at the time to make it work.

That's really all I'm suggesting, other than a bit better jumping skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Afx

Im sure you'd find the hwg even more annoying if he could bhop around you at medic speed, whilst peppering you with blinding napalm

That would basically be the uncapped bhop HW

Quote:

Originally Posted by Afx

I can probably accept that giving him rjing ability(not on a par with the soldiers i stress, perhaps just 2fort balc capable)would be a reasonable boost to the class, but i definitely dont think his ability to damage should be increased as well. I guess the aim for the pyro should be to make it a class that can cause distractions as opposed to one thats going to get a lot of frags.

I'm not suggesting they deal more damage, just that you can actually hit with the damn flamethrower. Also, make the flame effect less "laggy" than it is now, since, outside of HW, you can "outrun" the flames by strafing (at least, when I last played you could)

o_afx · 03-07-2006, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiggles

I'm not suggesting they deal more damage, just that you can actually hit with the damn flamethrower. Also, make the flame effect less "laggy" than it is now, since, outside of HW, you can "outrun" the flames by strafing (at least, when I last played you could)

Thats the thing though, by making it easier to hit and making the flames less laggy you'll automatically be giving him a rather large boost. I guess it'll all come out during the testing anyway.

Jiggles · 03-07-2006, 03:36 PM

Sure, it would be a boost, but I think it's a rather tough argument to make that Pyro is a good class on non-AvD maps. On maps with concs, Medics can do just about everything as well, or better than a pyro.

But yes, this is the sort of thing that playtesting is for

o_darknight · 03-07-2006, 04:52 PM

If flames actually blinded properly, it'd be a massive hinderance to any def players, esepcially HwGuy. Then increasing his range on his flamethrower and making it easier to hit, increasing his IC rocket speed and increasing his ability to RJ is one hell of a boost that's being discussed. Dont forget he can already spam tonnes of frag/Napalm grenades as it is.

It'd easily become too difficult to def against. Whilst blinded by fire it's much more difficult to be accurate. Especially if you're being attacked by more than one target and being conced.

Uhh food, I'll get to the point: watch out with the Pyro, making him too strong and used in every offy lineup IMO would be a bad thing. It being overpowered would be much worse than it being underpowered.

Jiggles · 03-08-2006, 04:01 AM

Sure, but that's no reason to leave him as underpowered as he is now. My basic point is that the Pyro is too weak to use on most maps. Thus, he needs to be improved. How much is up to playtesting.

o_nezumi · 03-08-2006, 07:45 AM

Another problem with pyro is that he's completely inefective at defense if the enemy ignores him. The pyro can still cap flags and stuff if peopel ignore him, but just running away from him is normally the best solution. If his rockets pushed enough to JR with, then they'd also push around other people. This would make the pyro very difficult to ignore.

Er, to reduce spamminess, you could make it so that the flames are easier to see through if you're running foreward. This way anyone trying to defend a position (especially HWs and snipers) would stay blinded and people trying to fight could see as long as they kept moving.

o_ernest · 03-08-2006, 08:27 AM

I'd like to see him boosted, but not by making him even more of a nuisance. All considerations on his effectiveness aside, the pyro is already no fun to play against.

o_toffee · 03-08-2006, 09:12 AM

to further increase his potential as an offy player and non-spammy type...reduce damage for when he does rocket jump - will give him a boost for bunny hopping, dodging etc

Jiggles · 03-08-2006, 02:08 PM

Just give the non-pyro classes a "stop, drop, and roll" button

o_sobe green · 03-08-2006, 03:37 PM

Haha or a one bucket-o-water per respawn.

o_ghost · 03-08-2006, 03:41 PM

I say make a separate Fireman class. His main weapon will be the fire extinguisher and his melee weapon can be a pick-head axe..

o_nezumi · 03-09-2006, 05:26 AM

He can use the axe to break down any door, even spawn doors.

03-07-2006, 09:49 AM	#26
mervaka A Very Sound Guy! Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: May 2005 Location: UK Posts Rated Helpful 15 Times	indeed. giving the pyro a better jump and a bit more range on the flamethrower will make a worthy O class without overpowering it imo. EDIT: oh, and the IC rockets need speeding up too! __________________ Support FF:

03-07-2006, 02:56 AM	#21
o_nezumi Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Peoples Republic of Harmfull Free Radicals Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	If the pyros can kill, then you'll be dead before you get too annoyed. I think this is what the goal for balancing them should be. Also, yea, some sort of rj capability would be helpful. Or some sort of expanded movement capability.

03-07-2006, 03:09 AM	#22
o_kam Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Melbourne Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Pyro will fail if he's still annoying though. Sure it's a weak class so that's a reason not use it, but if anyone does, it's instantly gay/lame since it takes absolutely no skill to be an annoying pyro and people just don't want to be annoyed like that. If he is just beefed up it'll be frustrating that the annoyance is actually effective. Which just isn't fun. So yeah, what Afx said.

03-07-2006, 04:04 AM	#23
Jiggles Retired FF Staff Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: CowTown Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I don't know. Outside of massive spamming of napalm grens (which is less annoying than spy gas spamming), I don't really find Pyros that annoying to play against. I find HWs more annoying, anyway. They take even less skill to hit you, and they can do so from pretty much any distance

03-07-2006, 07:07 AM	#24
o_gman55 Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Seattle, WA Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Please don't dumb-down the pyro class by buffing it too much. In Dustbowl, the pyro is a great class. On defense, he softens up targets so the big guns can more easily take them out. And he disrupts the offense, slowing down their advance. On offense, he can use his flame cannon to burn the engies crouching behind the SGs. On stage three, pyros will often strafe back and forth just behind the bridge to red's base, spamming the defenders with flame rockets. I only ask that the flamethrower be adjusted to actually work. In TFC, it just sucks because the technology didn't exist at the time to make it work.

03-07-2006, 08:47 AM	#25
o_toffee Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	just giving the pyro the ability to rocket jump as well as the soldier would be a big boost to his usability as an offensive player

03-07-2006, 11:35 AM	#27
o_valk Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Australia Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	man, if its beefed up too much it will just be made -1 in leagues so do whatever u want to it, in the end it will only kill pub play

03-07-2006, 03:36 PM	#31
Jiggles Retired FF Staff Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: CowTown Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Sure, it would be a boost, but I think it's a rather tough argument to make that Pyro is a good class on non-AvD maps. On maps with concs, Medics can do just about everything as well, or better than a pyro. But yes, this is the sort of thing that playtesting is for

03-07-2006, 04:52 PM	#32
o_darknight Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Yorkshire Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	If flames actually blinded properly, it'd be a massive hinderance to any def players, esepcially HwGuy. Then increasing his range on his flamethrower and making it easier to hit, increasing his IC rocket speed and increasing his ability to RJ is one hell of a boost that's being discussed. Dont forget he can already spam tonnes of frag/Napalm grenades as it is. It'd easily become too difficult to def against. Whilst blinded by fire it's much more difficult to be accurate. Especially if you're being attacked by more than one target and being conced. Uhh food, I'll get to the point: watch out with the Pyro, making him too strong and used in every offy lineup IMO would be a bad thing. It being overpowered would be much worse than it being underpowered.

03-08-2006, 04:01 AM	#33
Jiggles Retired FF Staff Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: CowTown Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Sure, but that's no reason to leave him as underpowered as he is now. My basic point is that the Pyro is too weak to use on most maps. Thus, he needs to be improved. How much is up to playtesting.

03-08-2006, 07:45 AM	#34
o_nezumi Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Peoples Republic of Harmfull Free Radicals Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Another problem with pyro is that he's completely inefective at defense if the enemy ignores him. The pyro can still cap flags and stuff if peopel ignore him, but just running away from him is normally the best solution. If his rockets pushed enough to JR with, then they'd also push around other people. This would make the pyro very difficult to ignore. Er, to reduce spamminess, you could make it so that the flames are easier to see through if you're running foreward. This way anyone trying to defend a position (especially HWs and snipers) would stay blinded and people trying to fight could see as long as they kept moving.

03-08-2006, 08:27 AM	#35
o_ernest Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I'd like to see him boosted, but not by making him even more of a nuisance. All considerations on his effectiveness aside, the pyro is already no fun to play against.

03-08-2006, 09:12 AM	#36
o_toffee Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	to further increase his potential as an offy player and non-spammy type...reduce damage for when he does rocket jump - will give him a boost for bunny hopping, dodging etc

03-08-2006, 02:08 PM	#37
Jiggles Retired FF Staff Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: CowTown Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Just give the non-pyro classes a "stop, drop, and roll" button

03-08-2006, 03:37 PM	#38
o_sobe green Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Arkansas Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Haha or a one bucket-o-water per respawn.

03-08-2006, 03:41 PM	#39
o_ghost Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I say make a separate Fireman class. His main weapon will be the fire extinguisher and his melee weapon can be a pick-head axe..

03-09-2006, 05:26 AM	#40
o_nezumi Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Peoples Republic of Harmfull Free Radicals Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	He can use the axe to break down any door, even spawn doors.

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