Want to improve a distinction between Scout and Medic?

[GenghisTron]

He's bringing up a rational discourse about the game. Instead of petty bitching in a pub, he's attacking the problem at the root, and hosting an intellectual debate. How about you get off his fucking nuts about the fact that he doesn't play, and realize that he's doing more to further the game than you are by bitching about him making so many posts. Don't like it? Don't read 'em. Simple as that.

[Jimyd]

Originally Posted by [AE] 82694

Getting back to my original questions for Jimyd. You see none of my questions say he isn't qualified but I'm mostly curios as to why post for a game someone doesn't play and why they don't play? My last response was mostly for your bridget. Not trying to start shit but I believe you should try it first before suggesting changes.

Ok I played for a bit, but I stopped since all it was was a copy of TFC at the time. TFC was more refined and had less bug/glitches.

I would actually probably try FF again if this change were to happen.

Also note at the time most pub servers were dead or were run by 12-14 year old admins who cry cheats like it is water on tap.

Also, I didn't want to extend my post by a considerable length, like I am doing now.

Too many people just TL;DR like lamerz. Happy now? Like really guys/galz, playing TFC = playing FF = playing TF2(even more so, because it is soo watered down).

Sigh..

*EDIT*

Jumppads remind me of NeoTF, not to say Jumppads are bad for Scout only, but I wouldn't want to see more "NeoTF Stuff" to bleed into the game.

*EDIT 2*

I also didn't play because my crosshairs were not lined up on 1024x768(or any resolution) at the exact center, they are like off to the right a bit. Makes Sniper(all classes, really) unfun. I don't know if you guys fixed this yet, but that would have to be something that has happened for me to play again as well.

(Like really, how can you mess that up?)

[Jimyd]

Also I am a player who liked playing Defensive Medic (and watching people raje like mad because it is "SOO BAD MANNERED"), and wouldn't mind seeing the Medic losing some of its DMing ability.

I Scout Defensed as well, but that was more for the Kaltrop LOL Z!!! of irritating the Offense on pubs. Really not as useful as Medic Def. because of only using Single-Shotgun and no Medkit.

*EDIT AGAIN*

Like really, just make a cvar, tf_scomed_shotgun_switch 0 = No-Switch(Default setting)/1 = Switch, and just see how people like it.

I do not think it would be that hard to do. Sure yes you would have to animate the Double-Shotgun for Scout if enough people really do seem to like it after "beta testing it", but it does not hurt to check it out. All you have to do for Medic is just restrict the Double-Shotgun when the setting is set to 1, easy enough.

Or you can all choose Poll Option #3, w/e I guess.

[[AE] 82694]

Thanks Jimyd. That gives some insight as to why you left which is one thing we really need to keep in mind when making changes.

We have to way when ever we change something whether or not it fix's a broken mechanic or pushes/moves the game in the direction we want along with what it will do to the player base (increase/decrease).

The question is will it be beneficial to FF to move the Medic to a defensive support class if I understand you correctly.

Also your weapon switch setting would that be server side or client? If it's client side then you may as well do a weapon load out for all the classes which is one thing I don't really think would be good for FF.

[Jimyd]

Originally Posted by [AE] 82694

Thanks Jimyd. That gives some insight as to why you left which is one thing we really need to keep in mind when making changes.

We have to way when ever we change something whether or not it fix's a broken mechanic or pushes/moves the game in the direction we want along with what it will do to the player base (increase/decrease).

The question is will it be beneficial to FF to move the Medic to a defensive support class if I understand you correctly.

Also your weapon switch setting would that be server side or client? If it's client side then you may as well do a weapon load out for all the classes which is one thing I don't really think would be good for FF.

Since when were tf_ cvars client side?

Of course server side, I feel like I should slap you. =|

And it is not to make the Medic purely Defensive support, but put more emphasis that the Scout is the Pure Offensive Class.

Easiest way to explore this without getting too crazy is to try my suggestion.

I heard from Neon/Montattii/Jubbs 2.5/3.0 is expecting to be big changes.

I wouldn't really suggest this if I didn't want to try to improve the game. Otherwise I would be asking for Lazer Guided Rocketz BRAH.

*NOTE*

use tf_weapon_xyz doesn't count, since USE is the client side command.

=D

[Elmo]

tf_ doesn't exist as far as I know, does it?! I guess you're thinking of tf2 and I wouldn't have thought every tf_ command was server side either.

[Jimyd]

Originally Posted by Elmo

tf_ doesn't exist as far as I know, does it?! I guess you're thinking of tf2 and I wouldn't have thought every tf_ command was server side either.

LOL I was thinking of mp_ commands.

Gosh why did they have to change things.

[blackout]

He's bringing up a rational discourse about the game. Instead of petty bitching in a pub, he's attacking the problem at the root, and hosting an intellectual debate.

Ending each reply with personal attacks and /facepalm is not very rational.

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by blackout

Ending each reply with personal attacks and /facepalm is not very rational.

Originally Posted by blackout

Argue all you want, just stop obsessive compulsively trying to change a game you're not even playing. Every time i venture back here you have a new complaint with the game. I think the FF staff have done a commendable job with this game, quit whining for changes that you won't be experiencing.

[wakka]

Any new players that have came from public scene to the pickup scene actually choose to play Scout over Medic.

If you take away the medics double shotgun then medics will throw 2grenades at every Frontline offy leaving no grenades for SG/backline thus breaking the mechanics of the game. A medic needs to be able to get through with 1grenade left and therefore needs his super shotgun.

[Raynian]

Originally Posted by wakka

Any new players that have came from public scene to the pickup scene actually choose to play Scout over Medic.

If you take away the medics double shotgun then medics will throw 2grenades at every Frontline offy leaving no grenades for SG/backline thus breaking the mechanics of the game. A medic needs to be able to get through with 1grenade left and therefore needs his super shotgun.

QFT.

The scout and medic are fine where they are. We don't need to compromise the uniqueness in each class to give everyone in a pub a "fair shake" because they will not play medic, and want scout to be a super duper DMer. If players refuse to assume multiple roles, they have no right to complain.

[Jimyd]

Well you do not have to have 2 Scout 2 Medics for Offense. I go under the assumption of 9v9 BTW.

What about O Demo/O Spy? And to a lesser extent O Engy/O Pyro/O Soldier in that order. And I guess some maps with big sight lines O Sniper for Sentrys.

Or has this game dwindled down to what TF2 competitive is, which is a "Standard Setup". TF2 = 2 Scout, 2 Soldier, 1 Demo, and 1 Medic.

Also another reason people are choosing 2 Scouts, is because of the Jumppad. Take that away and I am sure you will see a lot more 1 Scout/3 Medics, and with one of those Medics being a utility for Demo/Spy/Engy/Sniper/Pyro/Soldier in that order. Sniper/Pyro spot is debatable depending on how good that player is at Pyro. For me it would be first pick as Pyro over Sniper, or actually an equal choice.

I think trying new things would be a good idea for FF, and not going too crazy by adding in new features, just a slight mix up.

The Single-Shotgun is powerful, if you land your shots 95% of the time when not affected by a Concussion Grenade(like any decent Offense player =D). So the Medic will not be at that disadvantage. Plus he has Frag Grenades, so that still makes him useful. What my suggestion does is actually makes the Medic and Scout to rely on eachother, Scout to soften em up for the Medic to Grenade the target. Or the other way around for the Scout to finish off the Naded target.

Plus the Medic is still useful because of its Healing Ability, which good players utilize. Like in TFC, bad players in clans who ran 4 Medics would never heal eachother, severely limiting the class. If you did utilize the Medpack, the Medic could be argued to be overpowered (in TFC that is when he has max Grenades).

Example:

The ability to use the Single-Shotty well is important for a few classes.

It is actually what defines a good Demo from a Superb Demo. Same for the Pyro, who isn't just spamming IC rockets from the respawn but actually playing the class.

*EDIT*

Originally Posted by wakka

Any new players that have came from public scene to the pickup scene actually choose to play Scout over Medic.

If you take away the medics double shotgun then medics will throw 2grenades at every Frontline offy leaving no grenades for SG/backline thus breaking the mechanics of the game. A medic needs to be able to get through with 1grenade left and therefore needs his super shotgun.

This what defines a good Medic(Offense Player) from a bad one, knowing when to save their Grenades. The example I am thinking of, is priming a Conc to Conc Jump from the Bments. Lets say the map openfire_l, you can choose to save your Conc so can do Double Conc jumps from the water, and still have an extra to dodge the Defense.

Please note I said openfire_l and not openfire_low_grens, which means you have 3 Concs and not 2. In Low Grenade Maps, you have to save your Conc a lot of the times to get that initial Flag Touch and toss it out behind the security lasers(on the maps that have them).

I'm sure most pubbers who first install the game or who never clanned or took a deeper look into the game, have never either considered this or even thought about it or the game at that level.

If you haven't, then think about it now, for discussion sake at least. This game(TF Genre) is not linear, even though the classes themselves do not swap out weapons(every TF game has been pretty much the same, lets ignore TF2), there is still all kinds of variables in the background. Player controlled based on skill, and the game mechanics. Plus there is also that 1% luck factor as well.

And no I do not think about this everytime I play, it just comes natural. Which is either from repetition or natural ability, or both of those combined(what I think) over time. Which is a good thing, you do not want to have to think about what you want to do, but just do it based on the current situation.

Have I hurt everyone's brain for today? =)

[Raynian]

In pub play, yeah, scouts can shotty people while doing whatever. The single shotty isn't bad, so if someone desperately wants to DM as a scout, let them. Don't give him a stronger gun.

In competive play, good players will be too busy jerking their mouses around to get more speed/control.

And that's fine.

Scouts are 25% faster than medics. Even without jumppads, we'd see about the same scout:medic ratios in pickups.

[be_]

Agree, but disagree:
Voted yes. Interesting idea, but I think that weapon swap would hurt the medic class too much. But heck if it's not too hard, why not try it out?

Reason:
Super shotgun is the primary weapon of the medic vs other players. It's not much compared to other classes like HW's AC, Solly's rpg, etc. but that is the best weapon of the medic.
I can kind of agree that the single shotty can be effective if used 95% of the time, but how often can a player do that? If you say any decent player who's not conced can land shots 95% of the time, then I must not be a decent player. I probably couldn't do that if we're both strafing and jumping, being knocked in the air by rockets, etc.

Suggestion:
I would like to see how it would be with medic having a slight decrease in speed and something that makes him better at helping/healing his team. That's it for medic. Medic is quite the powerhouse right now; but change his speed a lil and give him a good reason to stay behind and it might make him more of a medic, and make the scout stand out more in what he was made for: Speed!

New ideas:
Instead of swapping shotguns with the medic, what if the scout had a new one? What if he had a scatter gun (sound familiar?) that was only really effective at close range. It is more powerful than the super shotgun, but if he wants to try to make a kill, he has to get right up to that solly, HW, or demo.

That or try making his single-shotgun automatic. I doubt any scout goes through all of his shells in a single life. Increasing the rate of fire would probably make him more of a threat in DM.

[Bridget]

I like the idea of slowing the Medic down in general and only allowing him quick bursts or increases of speed through skills, perhaps like that adrenaline shot I mentioned. I do not, however, like the idea of making the Scout into a combat class, because we are all comfortable with his role outside of one. I think the Scout would be great with non-combat weapons that defend him instead of combat weapons that have him on the offensive. Also, they should support his team as well, making him accessible for lower-level play/beginners.

Remember the Scout's radar? Probably not. What if the Scout had a handheld device that when pulled out and held sent out pulses every few seconds that showed the enemy flag through walls? It would flash for a few seconds and then disappear as the handheld device scanned around in a circle. This isn't necessary for high-tier Scouts, but beginners might find it nice.

[Jimyd]

Originally Posted by Bridget

I like the idea of slowing the Medic down in general and only allowing him quick bursts or increases of speed through skills, perhaps like that adrenaline shot I mentioned. I do not, however, like the idea of making the Scout into a combat class, because we are all comfortable with his role outside of one. I think the Scout would be great with non-combat weapons that defend him instead of combat weapons that have him on the offensive. Also, they should support his team as well, making him accessible for lower-level play/beginners.

Remember the Scout's radar? Probably not. What if the Scout had a handheld device that when pulled out and held sent out pulses every few seconds that showed the enemy flag through walls? It would flash for a few seconds and then disappear as the handheld device scanned around in a circle. This isn't necessary for high-tier Scouts, but beginners might find it nice.

Unnecessary, and would be useless if that is its only function. If it was like the radar of older TF games, then it would show players and mechanical objects. Now that is a useful radar.

Probably would have to sacrifice the jumppad though. Otherwise you are jumping into QWTF MegaTF territory.

I think maybe if the Medkit could used to be inject the Medic into himself for an "Adrenaline Boost", but disable Healing with it for a temporary period, could be interesting.

But then you give up the one "Pro" to the Scout, and that is its speed.

What if we take my suggestion of switching the Shotguns still, but then give the Super-Nailgun its Knockback ability back from older TF games. I think that would be a fair trade-off.

If it is currently that way in FF, then just give the Super-Nailgun even more of a Knockback effect.

This would allow you to play Defensively Offense with the Medic. Kind of like how you can play Offensively Defensive with the Soldier.

[Eon Seig]

Why not improve the incentive for Medics to actually heal people? If the Medic would act like a medic and heal people the game would be immeasurably more enjoyable.

[squeek.]

Why?

[Eon Seig]

It would make the game more enjoyable because then having a Medic with you on an offensive push might actually mean you survive the push, instead of the Medic concing away as you get left in the dust to die. Medics that don't heal people are annoying because most of the time they are not helpful.

The problem with distinguishing the Scout from the Medic is not their flag running ability or their combat prowess, it is their core class roles.

[squeek.]

So, then how would movement fit in that gameplay? How would a conc grenade work if you had to (or if it was better to) group up with a medic to mount a successful attack?