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Old 12-03-2011, 07:38 PM   #21
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You know, instead of having it "explode" and cause damage, why not have it "pop" with a low-grade conc effect? Not enough to be used as a means of speed enhancement, but more like a 1-2 second disorientation.
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Old 12-03-2011, 08:42 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwarsbane View Post
I guess I just don't understand why you keep pushing the laser grenade over the nail grenade because everything you say about the nail grenade and spam can be said about the laser grenade. The only difference is that the laser grenade is less useful.
The nail grenade rewards spam and the laser grenade does not. That is the difference.

Sure, you can spam laser grenades, but that will be worse than someone using them thoughtfully. With the nail grenade, someone spamming does better (or the same) as someone using them thoughtfully.

I don't know how I can be more clear.
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Old 12-03-2011, 09:08 PM   #23
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I understand how it's a more interactive mechanic. But it makes no difference spam wise. I can not for the life of me understand how you can call such an extremely similar grenade less spammy. It honestly isn't.
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Old 12-03-2011, 09:34 PM   #24
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It has the same capabilities for spam, but it is less effective when spammed. Throwing a laser grenade at a front door and running away will likely never net you a kill. Throwing a nail grenade at a front door and running away has a much, much higher likelihood of netting a kill.

Take the case of a MIRV and a frag. They are certainly similar, but a MIRV is more effective when spammed than a frag, because the damage radius is larger and the duration is longer (2 explosions rather than 1). The same principle applies with the nail grenade vs the laser grenade, except in this case, its because the damage is dodgable and it doesn't explode at the end.
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Old 12-03-2011, 11:06 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy View Post
You know, instead of having it "explode" and cause damage, why not have it "pop" with a low-grade conc effect? Not enough to be used as a means of speed enhancement, but more like a 1-2 second disorientation.
Thats an idea, or even have it do some sort of implosion and have it "suck" people towards the center of the implosion. That would certainly slow down people trying to get past it.


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It has the same capabilities for spam, but it is less effective when spammed. Throwing a laser grenade at a front door and running away will likely never net you a kill. Throwing a nail grenade at a front door and running away has a much, much higher likelihood of netting a kill.

The laser grenade is not just less effective when spammed, its less effective when used "the right way" and thats what we are getting at. The nail grenade was very effective when used "the right way". It made people die, or stop, or at least slow down. With the currently laser grenade when used "the right way"


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Take the case of a MIRV and a frag. They are certainly similar, but a MIRV is more effective when spammed than a frag, because the damage radius is larger and the duration is longer (2 explosions rather than 1). The same principle applies with the nail grenade vs the laser grenade, except in this case, its because the damage is dodgable and it doesn't explode at the end.
And if you had taken out mirvs and replaced them with frag grenades claiming you did it because mirvs are spammed and frag grenades wouldn't be we'd be complaining about that too.
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Old 12-03-2011, 11:46 PM   #26
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That's an entirely separate conversation, though. If you are trying to argue that laser grenades are not powerful enough, then I agree. They aren't. Their damage is too low and it will be increased (almost doubled) next patch. Whether or not you think that will be enough of a change is certainly up for debate.

However, to add something like the grenade bobbing up and down would change the design of the grenade (make it harder to dodge by jumping). You'd then need to argue that it being harder to dodge by jumping would be good in a game design sense, which I don't necessarily agree with. Same thing with a non-damaging explosion at the end. Why would that be good in a game design sense? I see it as adding a random element to the game that would cause frustration as it wouldn't feel like the soldier had any influence on it. I can see how both ideas would make the grenade more useful, but I don't necessarily see how either idea would make the grenade more fun/interactive/deep.
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Old 12-04-2011, 12:20 AM   #27
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So, you're saying that an "end of laser effect" that causes a movement change in someone close to it isn't interactive?
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Old 12-04-2011, 12:54 AM   #28
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There seems to be some misconception that our goal as designers should be to make weapons/grenades/abilities more powerful or more useful. That may be what you want when you are playing the class, but it does not necessarily make the game more fun, more fair, or more intuitive.
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Old 12-04-2011, 12:54 AM   #29
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So, you're saying that an "end of laser effect" that causes a movement change in someone close to it isn't interactive?
It only is if information about when exactly the effect will happen is known (like if you see a nail grenade begin shooting nails, you know it will explode in 3 seconds).

But, aside from that, an explosion at the end also rewards spam which isn't exactly a good quality either.
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Old 12-04-2011, 01:27 AM   #30
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There seems to be some misconception that our goal as designers should be to make weapons/grenades/abilities more powerful or more useful. That may be what you want when you are playing the class, but it does not necessarily make the game more fun, more fair, or more intuitive.
I don't really want anything to be anymore powerfull, but I do want it to do it's job. I think the biggest beef with the grenade right now is the lasers and not the explosion at all. As it is, the lasers are just insanely easy to dodge it's almost pointless. In fact, the lasers are so easy to dodge you're more likely to damage people with it who didn't even know it was there. Which means you probly didn't know they were there either. Incouraging spam.
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Old 12-04-2011, 10:53 PM   #31
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It's hard to compare the job the nails do versus lasers, but setting those aside, it felt like the explosion got nerfed without really replacing it with something else. That something else doesn't necessarily need to be at the end of the nade's spin cycle or do damage, but it feels like overall, the Soldier's secondary grenade got nerfed. I do like the lasers over the nails, I think it's visually spectacular versus the nails, it just needs more umph I think. It just kind of statically spins. It's predictable to a point, wheras the nails came at you quickly and you were unable to dodge in some cases.
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Old 12-05-2011, 03:10 PM   #32
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i know it wasn't the point of this thread, but if ppl want to discuss the power of the laser gren then maybe it'd be useful to quantify roughly how much damage you think it should do in practical terms (i.e. if it's exactly as it is atm just different damage).

i recon a full health medic should lose about half his total health/armor if he just runs through one laser beam (at the edge of its range - where it's moving fastest). i think it should be really punishing if you touch the laser, but relatively easy to completely dodge if you're able to focus on doing so (and it already gets this dodgability part about right imo).

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Old 12-05-2011, 05:58 PM   #33
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i know it wasn't the point of this thread, but if ppl want to discuss the power of the laser gren then maybe it'd be useful to quantify roughly how much damage you think it should do in practical terms (i.e. if it's exactly as it is atm just different damage).

i recon a full health medic should lose about half his total health/armor if he just runs through one laser beam (at the edge of its range - where it's moving fastest). i think it should be really punishing if you touch the laser, but relatively easy to completely dodge if you're able to focus on doing so (and it already gets this dodgability part about right imo).
I'd like to see it do about 25 to 30 percent and do it to both health and armor if you hit the end of one. If you are closer to the middle 50 perfect damage to both. If you happen to land in the middle where all the lasers are coming out, then you should kiss 90 or 95 percent of your health and armor goodbye.

I also think it should move up and down a little to help make it a little less predictable.
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Old 12-05-2011, 08:32 PM   #34
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I'd like to see it do about 25 to 30 percent and do it to both health and armor if you hit the end of one. If you are closer to the middle 50 perfect damage to both. If you happen to land in the middle where all the lasers are coming out, then you should kiss 90 or 95 percent of your health and armor goodbye.

I also think it should move up and down a little to help make it a little less predictable.
90-95% isn't unrealistic, because you could theoretically be touching all 3 lasers at the same time(noclipping the nade itself).
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Old 12-05-2011, 08:57 PM   #35
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If you want to try out the values that will be in 2.44 on a local server, turn sv_cheats on and change ffdev_lasergren_damage to 660. However, in 2.43, there is a bug that makes the exact center of the laser grenade do zero damage, so the center will be more powerful in 2.44 with that bug fixed.
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Old 12-10-2011, 05:28 AM   #36
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as the game is currently in hibranation again 2.44 needs to come soon.
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Old 12-10-2011, 02:37 PM   #37
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as the game is currently in hibranation again 2.44 needs to come soon.
I hear heavy breathing...
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Old 12-10-2011, 04:56 PM   #38
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I hear heavy breathing...
Sorry, I'll stop thought. Please don't call the cops again.





I'll certainly give it a try once its out. The laser grenades do sound better.

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Old 12-11-2011, 07:36 PM   #39
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I can clearly see why the nail grenade was changed to a laser grenade. Part of the balancing aspect for the Dev team (in my opinions mind you) is to make the game more about the class and less about the objects that the class can use.


The spy grenade was removed because it was not much more (I'm not saying this was it's only use) then throwing it down a hallway to confuse, harass, grief. Did it have other usefulness to the spy? your damn fucking right, but as a whole for the game it was a mindless spam rock. ( the only gripe i had about gas pill being taken out was lack of anything put back in.)



The laser grenade was changed so that the solider would use it more effectively as a tool, and less effectively as a spam rock. Can it still be used as a spam rock? Your damn fucking right it can be, but it's not as effective that way as it was previously.


What the FFdevs did (in my opinions mind you) was make the laser grenade as a rocket hot spots for the period of time it was up. Ya you can hop over the lasers and avoid the damage, but guess what? that laser grenade your hoping over only has 2-3 logical spots you would hop over it to avoid damage, thus making you more vulnerable to rocket fire from the solider.


If you still don't understand try to imagine the elbow water hallway on siege. You got a solider sitting there guarding, well a scout comes in and he could jump, move anywhere down the hallways to avoid rocket/shotgun fire. He could hug the walls juke left, juke right. Much harder to determine where the scout will go, land, bounce towards for a solider that is less experienced in watching scout movements to predict where he will land.



Now you look down that same hallway and chuck a laser grenade down, suddenly there is only 3 ways the scout is going to try to pass it without taking any damage. He'll either try to fly over it, step in between the lasers on the left of it, or on the right of it. Now all the solider has to do is pay attention for which spot he tries to bypass the laser grenade at and he can fire at the scout and take advantage of the tools he used to do it.


Does the laser damage need to be increased a bit? your damn fucking right it does, but it doesn't need any kind of prestige, ending pop, boom, explode that puts more emphasis on the grenade and less on the solider using it.




-Drak

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Old 12-12-2011, 03:21 PM   #40
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I read none of the above posts. I want caltrops.

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