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Old 01-27-2010, 12:27 PM   #21
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Imo needs something like this at map end
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Old 01-27-2010, 03:18 PM   #22
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I think make it where everyone can pick up bags in anybase that might reduce DVD
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Old 01-27-2010, 04:03 PM   #23
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Credge said it best imo. (the thing about it being more fun to kill than cap a flag)

I think we have a perfect case of elites building a game for themselves here, which is neither a good or bad thing. It's just an explanation for the fact that so few ppl play this game today.
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Old 01-27-2010, 05:24 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sh4x View Post
Credge said it best imo. (the thing about it being more fun to kill than cap a flag)

I think we have a perfect case of elites building a game for themselves here, which is neither a good or bad thing. It's just an explanation for the fact that so few ppl play this game today.
Well I'd say it's a bad thing. I think FF should have stuck to either not veering so much from TFC (where a lot of people were coming from), or else having a split in mechanics between "fun" modes (dustbowl, hunted, murderball, etc.) and "league" modes (most CTF maps). Rules and mechanics could have been tailored to what each group felt was best and you could have had a more satisfying game for both sides. The "elites" could get the game they wanted, clans wouldn't have been driven off, and new players could have had a lot of fun with the new new modes and devs could experiment with many more new gameplay changes (as opposed to them trickling down the way they have been).

I still remember the argument against this was that it would divide the community. Well it's easy to keep the community whole if the majority of people leave!
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Old 01-28-2010, 01:14 PM   #25
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When you work for free on something, you'll most likely make it the way you want it, and less likely follow a direction that could please others (the casual gamer market in this case) more than yourself. This is what I meant by "elites building a game for themselves".

I don't think it's a bad thing. Maybe expectations are unrealistic? The original idea of this mod was to recreate TFC on source so it could be expanded like "the community" wanted, and be free from Valve's hands. Mission accomplished I say.
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Old 01-28-2010, 03:32 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sh4x
When you work for free on something, you'll most likely make it the way you want it, and less likely follow a direction that could please others (the casual gamer market in this case) more than yourself. This is what I meant by "elites building a game for themselves".

I don't think it's a bad thing. Maybe expectations are unrealistic? The original idea of this mod was to recreate TFC on source so it could be expanded like "the community" wanted, and be free from Valve's hands. Mission accomplished I say.



Don't get me wrong, I think the original release was fantastic. Defining the "elites" the way you do, I think that IS a good thing and things should have stayed focused on that. I feel like it's the "community changes" that caused a lot of downfall. I think there have been many changes that the "elites" didn't like, the casual players that play for more than 10 minutes didn't like, and were added only on the notion that they sounded fun and would theoretically draw in more players. The result was that it's driven off a large chunk of both camps.
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Old 01-28-2010, 03:58 PM   #27
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Lets not forget this mod is a stepping stone for a lot of the developers. While it isn't the primary focus of the mod to make a dev's resume look good, it certainly does help. Many of them from what I understand have never really dabbled in a mod that had the scope and potential this mod had. I think ultimately FF is a mod that never reached full potential due to a small developing staff, which lead to slow and sometimes drastic changes in the game (jump pad). With such long windows of development, and a lack of updates/communication regarding the mod from the staff, it is easy to see where people would view the mod as broken with no imminent fixes coming.

It's a snowball effect, and the snowball has become a monster. Fixing the game play now would only frustrate the stragglers who still play this game solely in pick-ups, which has become the core of the community, however out of touch and disconnected that community may be.
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Old 01-28-2010, 04:24 PM   #28
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Nicely put ruta
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Old 01-28-2010, 08:27 PM   #29
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[IMG]...and were added only on the notion that they sounded fun and would theoretically draw in more players. The result was that it's driven off a large chunk of both camps.
I'm sorry, but what?! I don't know of any change that has ever been made just "b/c it sounded fun." The dev forums are full of mountains of posts that make bridget's look like they took 10 seconds, and literally everything is analyzed to DEATH before even the betas see it.
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Old 01-28-2010, 08:44 PM   #30
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My posts do take 10 seconds.
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Old 01-28-2010, 09:49 PM   #31
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Man, if it were just for fun we'd have chainsaw launchers and goop guns by now. But nooooo.
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Old 01-28-2010, 10:05 PM   #32
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There are two obvious problems to me. The first one is that there is no incentive to win. Public players play this game as a source of entertainment for reasons different than league players. There is nothing fun in capturing a flag over and over for end-round satisfaction because public players do not play for end-round satisfaction. Public players expect progressive fun. They play 'in the moment'. They don't care whether or not their team wins. They care whether they are having fun, and deathmatch is fun.

There's also the problem with Snipers. Any chance of an organized offense is almost always shot down by Snipers. The offense rarely sees the inside of the base, save the Scouts or Medics, and because the defense gets tired of having little or no challenge, they give up. The offense gets bored of capping on no defense and go defense themselves. The remaining offense (on the other team) suffers the same fate and it all goes to shit and the server slowly empties or the map gets changed to another map where it repeats.

This is because teams meet in the center of the yard expecting to take out the enemy Snipers. They clash with the other team doing the exact same thing (Anything close to a pub match is OD vs OD. Entire teams do not focus strictly on O or D.) and the Snipers pick off the survivors, resulting in a draw. This is where it goes to shit and the above happens. Crazy for blaming it all on one class? Who the fuck knows. That's how it's been for me. All the organization and momentum gets sidetracked in any pub because everyone who breaks the 'draw' has to camp battlements to get their revenge or let their team go by or keep it from happening again. This is a distraction to how FF is played. No one really wants to do this either.

Offense has no problem killing defense. This game caters to the offense. It's just that the offense (in its entirety) rarely sees the defense and vice versa because of that one class that bottlenecks all the action in the yard. The 'o-runners' (Scouts and Medics) only get overwhelmed because they have no soldiers or heavies or demomen or spies or what have you to back them up because they were all sniped trying to make it across the yard or preoccupied from preventing that from happening. lawl.

Conclusion? 1. No win incentive. Nothing fun about capping because the reward is not immediate (which is what pub players enjoy, immediate rewards). Pub players like fun. Deathmatch, for example, is fun. So, no one wants to play offense unless it's to deathmatch. They'd much rather deathmatch in the yard or deathmatch in their base, though. Why? Well: 2. If players want to cap, there's that one fucking class that keeps preventing them from doing it. So, it turns to D v D out of an inability to fight back in a way that is entertaining and intuitive, which is not spamming the battlements and firing rockets across the map hoping they hit or hiding behind static props or cloaking all day across the yard or taking a long route around.
... The KKK of Snipers, Ladies and Gentlemen.

The snipers aren't a problem, and never were. Because not all snipers are good. They won't hit every time. And if you eliminate that, you got Pyro's to deal with. Then after that there will be complaints about too many SG's on Defense, and then stacking fat ass's around 3 dispensers which block the flag which is then surrounded by soldiers and pyro's, yada yada skippidy-do-dah-day!. I mean that could possibly cause an offense to run defense instead. to try and tell everyone that you believe that one class is keeping an entire offense from getting anywhere is ridiculous and you sir are crazy.

As for running offense and treating it like a death match.. That can't be anymore fun then it is to go for a flag. You cap the flag over and over and over, and you kill over and over and over. Same thing only you get more reward out of one then you do the other. I'm talking about capping of course. It's hard to do thusly you've achieved more then what you ever would with just killing people. I mean the only thing that really separates the two is that one takes teamwork.

The problem is actually a double-edged sword. You have the Learning Curve on one side -- And skill on the other. Allow me to explain:

The Learning curve-
People who play FF who never played any other fortress game will come into the game as a complete noob. They'll see Concing and call it super jumping. They'll see trimping and call it double jump. Ramp sliding and bhopping is "Moving so fast." There asking all these questions and they've yet to understand the basis of the game, and not even have a clear introduction to how each class is ran or how it could or should be ran. So they set off to play offense for a little bit only to notice that they weren't getting anywhere because either a) they don't know the map, b) they know nothing about the grenades, or c) their d is just too hard for him.

So he continues on for a little while and starts to think, "Hey, I'm not getting anywhere on Offense. Let me try to defend our flag (once I find it)." Which he then finds out is a hell of a lot easier then playing offense. He actually finds enjoyment out of it. And so this is what he sticks with from this point on. There's a lot of players that do that. If the learning curve for offense was as easy as defense, you'd see a lot more players running offense, and this problem would occur less.

SKILL -
For those players who have played Fortress games before FF and picked up on the curve, and they choose to play Defense over Offense.. Despite knowing that both teams are playing Defense, he'll continue to play Defense knowing that he's got a better chance then the rest of his team at actually getting any caps. There is more then one player on each team that can do that, yet they choose to run a defense. And while that's going on, you have the less experienced players also playing D because they haven't picked up on the skills that the experienced players have.

So in conclusion, I partially blame it on the learning curve and the more experienced players.

As for me, I rarely play Defense, only on AvD maps. I expect my team to be playing Defense on CTF maps about 90% of the time. Some of ya'll have seen me enough to notice that I believe. Jay also understands this.
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Old 01-28-2010, 11:04 PM   #33
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The snipers aren't a problem, and never were.
Lmfao?

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...
It is more fun than going for the flag. Who wants to run past people they can kill and grab some inanimate object for some arbitary amount of points when they can be interactive with those people and have an animate challenge that isn't predictable and linear like grab flag grab flag. You make it sound simple when you compare the actions with 'grab flag over and over' or 'kill people over and over'. Killing people has more depth and variation than grabbing a flag.

The learning curve or 'becoming better' is not a hassle if the game is fun. This game is so hard-wired for players who already know how to play the game, so programmed to the core for a niche group of gamers, and so on that no one finds the game fun enough to learn. I don't care how difficult something is, if I can have fun, then it's worth my while learning about it. FF is just not fun unless you already have a billion years of experience. (I was an exception, I guess. I came in as a complete noob to gaming in general. I didn't know how to bhop, conc jump, etc. I learned, because I found it fun, though for different reasons.)
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Old 01-29-2010, 01:25 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Dr.Satan
I'm sorry, but what?! I don't know of any change that has ever been made just "b/c it sounded fun." The dev forums are full of mountains of posts that make bridget's look like they took 10 seconds, and literally everything is analyzed to DEATH before even the betas see it.
Okay I remember seeing multiple posts by either devs or better known testers saying that AvD "wasn't really tested" for 2.0 (I can maybe find one or two of them if I really have to).

Maybe I'm wrong in that they weren't added because they sounded fun, but I am absolutely mystified why some were added, especially with regards to balance. I'd love to be enlightened, can you please explain why the following changes were added, ESPECIALLY in relevance to AvD? I've never really heard a satisfactory answer to these and I've considered some of these big balance breakers:

1. Jump pads. These really eroded defense when used properly, seeing the entire offense team get to the objective fast.

2. Pyro jumping. This is more map specific, but for ones where extra vertical height matter, these led to flag caps way faster.

3. Faster speeds overall. This may not seem like a big deal, but for maps that were designed for slower speeds, it also eroded balance in favor of offense.

4. Almost nonexistent sg push. (This has since been improved, but the fact that this made it into a release blows my mind). REALLY hurt defense while this was active.

5. Hwguy 2.0 changes. (this is moot point now, but again, I wonder how this made it through to release, this is one of the few changes everyone universally hated)


Devs adding things just because they sound fun could just be my misinterpretation of the situation, but unless there were really solid reasons for adding the above, I think it's more accurate to say that entire gameplay modes were basically ignored when making changes, they got broke, at one point made it impossible for me to recommend the mod to friends because the balance was so skewed. Seeing a game that was more fun to play in its early states devolve into one where the balance got progressively worse with playercounts waning off was depressing. Going back to the original point, THIS I consider a bad thing.

Also sorry for derailing the thread, I didn't intend to mutate it this way.

Last edited by Dr.Satan; 01-29-2010 at 06:53 AM.
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Old 01-29-2010, 04:05 AM   #35
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Just to clarify, only 1 & 2 still exist as problems in AvD, correct?
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Old 01-29-2010, 04:49 AM   #36
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I don't like jump pads in any kind of map. Too much speed that anyone can utilize.

Pyro jumping can be used in some CTF maps. e.g. dropdown, pyro trimp from below the flag (you can nadejump too). In a LOT of maps you can get to the batts quicker, or get up elevators, or throw the defense off by going flying.

No SG (or any weapon, for that matter) push sucks.

I just started in 2.3, but the HW seems puny. If you've got good aim with the sshotty and only decent aim with the AC, you might as well just use the sshotty all the time. He's not the meatgrinder he was in TFC.
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Old 01-29-2010, 05:09 AM   #37
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Lmfao?



It is more fun than going for the flag. Who wants to run past people they can kill and grab some inanimate object for some arbitary amount of points when they can be interactive with those people and have an animate challenge that isn't predictable and linear like grab flag grab flag. You make it sound simple when you compare the actions with 'grab flag over and over' or 'kill people over and over'. Killing people has more depth and variation than grabbing a flag.
That's because it is simple. Doing both in this game is simple for me. Infact, I get the most fun when I can do both at the same time! And it's not more fun if you don't kill anyone while in the process of trying to. You could honestly go both ways with this argument. It's more of a personal opinion to everyone. Sure, some others may prefer just DMing over Playing a REAL offense, but that's mostly because that's all their good at, the poor players.

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The learning curve or 'becoming better' is not a hassle if the game is fun. This game is so hard-wired for players who already know how to play the game, so programmed to the core for a niche group of gamers, and so on that no one finds the game fun enough to learn. I don't care how difficult something is, if I can have fun, then it's worth my while learning about it. FF is just not fun unless you already have a billion years of experience. (I was an exception, I guess. I came in as a complete noob to gaming in general. I didn't know how to bhop, conc jump, etc. I learned, because I found it fun, though for different reasons.)
And I completely agree with you on this. In a way it's not fair to the newer generation of players to be pinned with the more experienced know-it-all players and expect themselves to be decent. That's partially one of the reasons I blame for DvsD. But on a Side-note, I'm always willing and looking to help the newer players learn how to do some of the things they will witness in FF. Maybe find those players a few months down the road running an offense beside me which I would find rewarding.
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Old 01-29-2010, 05:32 AM   #38
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It's more fun because the reward is immediate. Capturing the flag's reward only comes at the end of the match, and no one really cares about that even when it comes around.
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Old 01-29-2010, 05:42 AM   #39
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It's more fun because the reward is immediate. Capturing the flag's reward only comes at the end of the match, and no one really cares about that even when it comes around.
Not entirely. If it takes me a while to cap a single flag through a challenging defense and I actually cap that s.o.b., then trust me, it's rewarding and satisfying with a great sigh of relief. The whole "Yes, I did it." factor applies and THEN, I do it again. But at least I get my 10 seconds of chill in between. And that is a feeling that's rewarding.
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Old 01-29-2010, 07:01 AM   #40
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@ chilled - I'm not saying that some changes haven't been wrong or anything, just saying that NOTHING is just blindly put in and then left. And there definitely hasn't been anything ever put in for fun. As for exactly why those changes were put in, I honestly can't tell you...I've only managed to read through about 1/4 of the old dev forums and that took literally about a week of solid reading on all my time off. And, like squeek pointed out, we are trying to fix a lot of that kind of stuff and should be down to just 1 & 2 now?
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