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Old 09-01-2007, 09:26 PM   #21
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I just figure that marriage should be a social contract between two consenting adults on the promise of exclusivity from any other marriage contracts.

Male or female, it does not matter.

This leaves out plural marriage, because it is between TWO consenting adults, not three, four, or five.

This leaves out children, because they do not have legal standing to sign a contract involving adults.

This also leaves out animals, because even if they somehow could sign a contract (those crazy monkies, they think they're people), they do not have legal standing equal to humans in our justice system.

As for plural marriages, legally, I think that it would be very difficult to iron out how that would work. What if one guy divorces all three of his wives? How are those ladies going to split a house three ways? (What if the guy gets the house? Yeah, not in America.)

So yeah, legally, it would be hard to work out. However, I do not think it is the government's business to forbid private plural marriages, especially if they are religious in nature.
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Old 09-02-2007, 12:30 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuzzy
I agree the oppression of women is a horrible thing, but that's not a plural marriage issue it's an issue with the people doing the oppression, wouldn't you say? I also don't know that I would agree that the large majority of pluralized marriage involve oppression of women, since it's all done in secret for the most part because it is illegal I think stats are difficult to find. I also don't know that pluralized marriage is the CAUSE of oppression of women, but rather the result of the man doing the oppressing.
I haven't heard any cases of the women not being oppressed in pluralized marriages. It isn't all in secret, it's also done in several countries with rather outdated views on women. Whether it's used to oppress, or if it's a side effect of oppression, it's still bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuzzy
You feel because some religious people like it then it must be bad? Isn't that a bit hypocritical?
Religious people want plural marriage = Must be Illegal
Religious people don't want gay marriage = Must be Legal
No, no, you're putting words in my mouth. I feel that if your reasons behind something are strictly religious, there's a problem. To further clarify, I don't think that in a country that isn't 100% religious, the religion shouldn't dictate the rules for everyone, especially on personal issues like gay marriage.
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Old 09-02-2007, 01:00 AM   #23
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Etzell, I don't see how you can separate the two. Originally marriage was all about the religious aspect. Regardless of the religion it's a sacrament of each of those various religions that consecrate it. Government gets into it from the perspective of inheritance and other various issues. I suspect you'll find that the concept of the "civil ceremony" followed later. I don't see how you can tell Gov't or Religion to stay out. This is one of those issues that is pretty well entwined.
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Old 09-02-2007, 01:11 AM   #24
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Christmas was also once a strictly religious holiday. Times change.
If you stick just to the religious aspects involved with religion, why isn't there an outcry about Atheists getting married, or inter-religious marriages? The fact is, things have changed and it's time people roll with the changes.
Besides, there are people adamantly against civil unions for homosexuals. So it can't just be about the word marriage.
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Old 09-02-2007, 01:19 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Etzell
Christmas was also once a strictly religious holiday. Times change.
If you stick just to the religious aspects involved with religion, why isn't there an outcry about Atheists getting married, or inter-religious marriages? The fact is, things have changed and it's time people roll with the changes.
Besides, there are people adamantly against civil unions for homosexuals. So it can't just be about the word marriage.
Etzell, that's why I specifically mentioned the civil ceremony in my prior post. I acknowledged that times change as do customs. But, at present, marriage is still very much entwined with Religion and Gov't and I don't see it as reasonable to expect either Gov't or Religion to simply be hands off. If gay people want some sort of union then they should carve out their own place instead of trying to break into a place where they are not being welcomed.

edit: BTW, Christmas is a bad example IMO because the idiot secularists by and large won't even say the word. It's Winter Holiday and Winter Break...just call a local school...they'll tell you.
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Old 09-02-2007, 01:30 AM   #26
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You know what though, this whole discussion really does not matter.

A significant part of the people in our generation don't really give a fuck what anyone does to themselves. Drug use is up, people are more open about homosexuality, etc. The time will come when homosexuals can marry and we can legally smoke a blunt while walking down the street.

Those are the key words, "the time". Eventually, it will just happen.

America was founded by a bunch of prudes and I am glad that our nation's youth are working to overturn that idiocy. It's sad to see that you have more civil liberties in many ways in Europe than you do in America.
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Old 09-02-2007, 01:51 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Etzell
I haven't heard any cases of the women not being oppressed in pluralized marriages. It isn't all in secret, it's also done in several countries with rather outdated views on women. Whether it's used to oppress, or if it's a side effect of oppression, it's still bad.
It's bad because you haven't heard anything good about it? What about all the people that haven't heard what they would consider good things about people being gay? Does that make gay marriage a bad thing?

If two women love two men and all four of them want to live as one married family should they be afforded the same rights and benefits as a heterosexual or a gay couple? Should those adults be allowed to make those bonding choices for themselves, or should the state say who they can and can not marry?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Etzell
No, no, you're putting words in my mouth. I feel that if your reasons behind something are strictly religious, there's a problem. To further clarify, I don't think that in a country that isn't 100% religious, the religion shouldn't dictate the rules for everyone, especially on personal issues like gay marriage.
I think it depends more on the will of the people rather then a religious matter to the government.
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Old 09-02-2007, 02:57 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puppychow
while I'm for it, I don't think the racial angle/comparison even applies due to gender differences.

for me it's simple because of this one "fact": i think it's pretty much indisputible that being gay is not a choice. therefore someone should not be penalized for a choice they did not make and not get equal treatment.

playing devils advocate, it's not even wrong to say the gay population is generally more sexually active and provacative...there is worthwhile concern that some of the relationships may not be on solid footing, but looking at the us divorce rate of near 50% i wonder if it really matters.

but yeah, anyone who gets their undies in a bunch over this should grow up. it's going to be legal everywhere very soon anyways. no sense in fighting a loosing battle. times change.
Because straight couples, you know... or relationships that start with sex... yea, they don't count.
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Old 09-02-2007, 03:14 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrenchToast
Any reason? Or just your dislike for freedom in the land of the free.
This is a 100% societal arguement - no religion or tradition elements are expressed here. And I'm not firmly entrenched here...I currently lean to this way of thinking. I am not immovable. But you asked so I shall proceed. Innoc, not gonna double post so this is for you as well.

The purpose of marrige, taking those other factors out, is to reward (via tax and other breaks) and encourage individuals to becomming stable, productive members of society. Married folk are generally happier, more responsible and productive members of society. This is not some sweeping generalization - there is plenty of emperical data on this; I ask you not to play the research link game but if you must press me I will follow up.

With that point in mind, even with the high divorce rate among man-woman unions, the gay population, especially with man-man relationships, tend to have more partners, tend to be more provacative "easy-going" with their committments, and the one-on-one foundation necessary for a successful long lasting partnership seems to be rocked easier.

My stance is obtained from emperical data and also opinions from my world and people I talk to. Some may be surprised that I think this way as I am def a "liberal", "green" and all that crap...but I'm also not indoctrinated to death. DC here has a very open and proud gay population - two of my best friends are 2 men who have been exclusive for 7 years and they would never go outside of each other...ever...but even they admit, as do many of my other gay friends that the "guy" scene is nuts; many guy-guy in relationships, still being men, horny, and filled with testestorone, have a don't ask don't tell policy...there is a lot of hooking up on the side even when they are in a relationship. For many, not all, it's a part of the culture, and it eventualy leads to potentially a situation where gay unions may end up crumbling.

Jealousy destroys all, there is nothing more apt to ruining a relationship. Once innoscense and trust is gone from any relationship, might as well just end it. It's over. You can try to soldier on, but resentment will always be there and slowly eat away at the fabric of what made 2 ppl to be together in the first place.

So not sure if I expressed myself clearly or not. But I go back to what I first said - should be legal as it's not a choice, but if it was then I think it shouldn't be...that's my stance as of sept 1 2007. I'm not immovable on it, I just have formed my opinions by talking and having friends with alot of gay people and I think I have some insight to the culture. Leaving this post, it's amazing the amount of times I have heard from my gay bretheren that they don't think they could ever be committed to one person and not have sex outside of that. Men are just too fricking horny.
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Old 09-02-2007, 03:43 AM   #30
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I do find that surprising based on my past understanding of your positions. Thanks PPC for replying.
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Old 09-02-2007, 03:53 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puppychow
Jealousy destroys all, there is nothing more apt to ruining a relationship. Once innoscense and trust is gone from any relationship, might as well just end it. It's over. You can try to soldier on, but resentment will always be there and slowly eat away at the fabric of what made 2 ppl to be together in the first place.
You are in for a world of disappointment and resentment. Relationships take a great deal more work then to say, "Welp, you looked at another dude, I'm outta here." I have seen couples, even married ones, go through the pain of an affair and recover. It isn't impossible, it just takes a great deal of work and in my personal opinion help from God*.

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* - Disclaimer: Scuzzy accepts no responsibility for other forum members issues with their Gods or lack of Gods. The use of God in this context refers to the God the Father, The Holy Spirit, and Jesus as the Holy Christian Trinity. The reference to this God is presented without warranty, express or implied. Descriptions and use of the word God in this message are based soley on a matter of faith and this post does not represent to prove or disprove the existence of any God. This post is not meant to express the opinions of God, but rather just Scuzzy.
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Old 09-02-2007, 04:00 AM   #32
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you totally and unequivocally oversimplified my post, misunderstood, and generally missed my point entirely. maybe it's the posters fault, but lose the elitism - I'm 32, have been in my fair share of wonderful, terrible, heartbreaking, and blissful relationships. I don't need a lecture on matters of the heart from you. I'm plenty experienced enough.

I wasn't talking about "looking". I was talking about fucking. And while yes it is possible, it's never the same. Been there.

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Old 09-02-2007, 04:01 AM   #33
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The Disclaimer is a nice touch Scuzzy.
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Old 09-02-2007, 04:14 AM   #34
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*Grabs some popcorn.*

This gonna be better than a soap, I'm sure of it....
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Old 09-02-2007, 04:48 AM   #35
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Ya damn those idiots secularists Innoc, damn them. You know what else? Damn those Republicans, conservatives, pro-gun law people, and anti-gay marriage assholes too. Christmas is called winter break because other holidays aside from Christmas occur around then, not some assumed vendetta against Christianity. The reason the church needs to be separate is because there is no longer one religion in North America, and giving one more power and influence than the others is a form of bias and discrimination. They don't want to Merry Christmas/Happy Hanukkah/Holiday #3/etc.... because that is a pain in the ass so they say season's greetings, happy holidays, and in your example, they call it Winter Break to acknowledge everyone.

And Scuzzy, I think the problem with what your saying is that Gay relationships completely benign compared to the multiple marriages or child-adult marriages. If Homosexuals getting married was as sick and twisted(and most importantly, harmful to someone) as Pedophiles marrying children then we would not be vehemently defending it, Etzell and I and all the other people on this board who share our views would be on your side, regardless of differing reasons or not.
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Old 09-02-2007, 04:51 AM   #36
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Aight Puppychow, I understand what you said... I think. However, from your point of view it seems to me that you're saying make it illegal, because you don't trust the men to remain committed. (please correct me if I'm wrong)

But the option should be there for them to take advantage of it. If half the gay population want to be swingers, that's always 100% available to them, but if the other half want to settle down and live ordinary lives, just with a partner of the same sex, who are we (we being gov't) to step in and tell them they can't, because we don't trust them to stay together? The argument seems ludicrous...
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Old 09-02-2007, 04:54 AM   #37
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Chill out YMH. I was merely pointing out that it was a bad example. Seriously, go take a walk or something. Tears are hardly good for your keyboard.

Edit: FT, I think PPC is saying the opposite. He is saying to include gays under the definition of marriage as it's not a choice.
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Old 09-02-2007, 05:03 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrenchToast
Aight Puppychow, I understand what you said... I think. However, from your point of view it seems to me that you're saying make it illegal, because you don't trust the men to remain committed. (please correct me if I'm wrong)

But the option should be there for them to take advantage of it. If half the gay population want to be swingers, that's always 100% available to them, but if the other half want to settle down and live ordinary lives, just with a partner of the same sex, who are we (we being gov't) to step in and tell them they can't, because we don't trust them to stay together? The argument seems ludicrous...
I don't think it should be legal (if not a choice), as through my objective and subjective experiences, I think homosexual relatioships are less stable and more likely to fail....and ppl wanting to get married sometimes just to get the gov't benefits, when those unions might be more apt to fail than traditional ones. If you take religion and tradition and "sweetness" out of it, at the end of the day it's about the benefits.

Law should be law, no matter what the law is. Law is typically created/enacted/enforced as a precedent has been set and you just can't trust people to sometimes act this way and at others act that way.

Not very clear, I know, I'm pooped.

edit - correct innoc. all i have blabbered was about if it was NOT a choice. i love gay people; they are pretty and rainbow colored like skittles!

Ok...settle down...
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Old 09-02-2007, 05:11 AM   #39
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Because straight relationships stay great.
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Old 09-02-2007, 05:20 AM   #40
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pretty weak reply. basically a "i'm gay and don't tread on me" one. i awknowledged the ratio 'aint great, but you know yourself better than anyone the scene and how many partners people have. it's not the same and you know it. don't be coy or play victim. whether or not that should be a factor is a different story. but the numbers are not the same.

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