Team Fortress 2

[Bridget]

Here comes Moosh with his goddamn stupid analogies. If Chess required you to learn an elaborate pattern to move each piece (physically, not strategically) that took weeks or months to learn, which is arguably not at all the meat of a game of Chess, then a lot of people wouldn't give two shits about that game. But, it's not. The moves are simple. It's just making them count that requires mastery.

Fortress Forever is the game of Chess that requires you learn some difficult way of moving the pieces, before you even get to the actual fucking meat of the game, which is both the fun part and what should count. That's why no one gives a shit, and why almost all of the beginners leave. Learning how to do some unintuitive movement techniques to keep up with everyone else shouldn't be necessary to enjoy this game. But, doh ho ho, it really is.

[JackBauer]

People these days are lazy fucks. They don't want to take the time to sit down and learn something. if they can't master it within 5 mins they give up.

They don't like challenges, they just quit.

it took me several weeks till I managed to get a positive death/kill ratio on tfc pubs back then. everyone just owned my ass all the time first, but then I stroke back. I wanted to become as good as them. Needless to say they were just average.

Later on I discovered clan gaming, got raped too in the first few clanwars. I didn't give up, I wanted to become even better than them. That thought kept me motivated for years.

Times have changed ever since though.

These days you get so many different multiplayer games. The competition is huge.

Most people seem to want to have some quick action without spending too much time on learning the mechanics of the game. When they get on the server, they expect instant kills.

How to make a game noob friendly? Keep it simple and slow. So even complete and total noobs can aim and kill other people.

Fair enough to people that want to play games like that. It's not my cup of tea.

I prefer skillful and hard games. I don't want to take the easy way out. I want to play a game where I can learn something new and become better even after 4-5 years.

[episkopos]

As has been said before, the small playerbase makes it impossible to segregate players. This means people who've been playing since TFC was released, or possibly before, are mixed with total noobs. Noobs get dominated. Noobs leave. This would apply if TF2 had a similar number of players to FF. Really the only way to fix this problem is to either increase the size of the playerbase, or to make the mechanics so shallow that a noob can compete at close to the level of a competent player. The second is obviously not an option. The first is a Catch-22: we need more players to get more players.

Another thing that we can't change that annoys me no end is how TF2 has altered player's expectations: people think any class that is able to heal should be entirely focused on healing, nevermind the main offensive class, to the extent that they get annoyed when it isn't that way. They expect the scout to be able to DM effectively, the spy's cloak to grant complete invisibility, and so it goes on. Really we need to assume new players come from TF2, and communicate these changes to them through the hints system in a more strongly worded way. "The medic, in spite of his name, is not primarily focused on healing. Instead..." "The spy's cloak does not grant total invisibility while moving..."

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by JackBauer

People these days are lazy fucks. They don't want to take the time to sit down and learn something. if they can't master it within 5 mins they give up.

They don't like challenges, they just quit.

it took me several weeks till I managed to get a positive death/kill ratio on tfc pubs back then. everyone just owned my ass all the time first, but then I stroke back. I wanted to become as good as them. Needless to say they were just average.

Later on I discovered clan gaming, got raped too in the first few clanwars. I didn't give up, I wanted to become even better than them. That thought kept me motivated for years.

Times have changed ever since though.

These days you get so many different multiplayer games. The competition is huge.

Most people seem to want to have some quick action without spending too much time on learning the mechanics of the game. When they get on the server, they expect instant kills.

How to make a game noob friendly? Keep it simple and slow. So even complete and total noobs can aim and kill other people.

Fair enough to people that want to play games like that. It's not my cup of tea.

I prefer skillful and hard games. I don't want to take the easy way out. I want to play a game where I can learn something new and become better even after 4-5 years.

I have been making this same assertion for a LONG time.

[stray kitten]

I used to hate TF2 because it just wasn't fun when you are in a pub and everyone else is outgunning you because someone has an eyelander (demo head taking sword that gives speed boost percentage for each head taken) or some other such item. Or worse a sniper and his bushwaka (bleed per second weapon that can devastate a spy's health and cloaking ability) is annoying as fuck when you are charged with taking out a sniper nest over looking a cap point.

Anyway it just wasn't fun. For the same reasons new players to FF perhaps? I too played TFC for hundreds, wait make that thousands of hours; so FF was just a couple weeks learning the differences with the occasional updates keeping things exciting. And I couldn't really get good a BH until I got a new and more sensitive mouse. Early FF players used to laugh at my ass for BH like shit. But I was still pretty decent without doing it. And in TFC mass BH came later. There was a time when it was really really hard to get a cap and it was difficult to take out an sg, in fact it was a team effort.

One would expect at this point TF2 players would be a main attraction to FF and yes they would expect the characters to act similar. In fact that thought process is the main reason people here seem to hate TF2 - because it doesn't or didn't at it's launch act as they expected it to do and they refused to go forward with the game.

But then valve changed something. They adopted the random drop system now in effect and initiated the Mann Co Store and trading. In fact you want some shit, find me in a game. So I read about this on steam and decided to give it a try, it was still fucking frustrating but after about a week I got the hang of it and now enjoy the game quite a bit. Do I want to easily conc by that sg thats nailed my ass 10 times, hell yeah but I have to find another way. What gets me is you have to put much more research into all the aspects of TF2 than you do for FF. You even have to change your character load out to specific threats or defensive postures. So one would think that given a little information about FF game mechanics, potential new players should take a huge interest in FF.

[Paft]

I didn't bother reading the thread, but I just had to tell you this...

WTF have they done to TF2? I spotted it on sale atm. £3.50! (or whatever in your land) the pic looks ridiculous. Helmets/hats and bows & arrows.

I could understand people liking standard TF2 (they way it should be) but wtf is this?!

[moosh]

Originally Posted by Paft

I didn't bother reading the thread, but I just had to tell you this...

WTF have they done to TF2? I spotted it on sale atm. £3.50! (or whatever in your land) the pic looks ridiculous. Helmets/hats and bows & arrows.

I could understand people liking standard TF2 (they way it should be) but wtf is this?!

This.

Originally Posted by Raven Dreamer

The TF2 Forum community has had a thing for hats ever since the Spy / Sniper update when they (and the random drop system) were implemented.

They like to complain about hats, cheer about how awesome their hat is, or worry that too many people are complaining or cheering about hats.

Of course, it may have all petered out, but Valve decided to add more hats. The classless update only added fuel to the fire with such quotes (from the Blog Update news itself) as: http://www.teamfortress.com/classless/day01.php or, ""Throughout history, men have worn hats as a way of showing how much better they are than other men. “I buy hats,” a behatted man seems to say. “I am better than you.”"

It appeared to reach its height when the Valve blog (not an update post, mind) itself seemed to indicate that hats were the most important things to the developers.

Observe.

Suffice it to say that Team Fortress 2 is no longer a first person shooter with RPG elements. It is 100% a hat simulator.

And now there's a trading system in tf2. Players can trade their hats with each other and this has made the game into 100% shit. You can actually see people standing around in the resupply trading hats. It is ridiculous.

Edit: There's also an in-game store where you can buy hats for real money.

Basically, Team Fortress 2 is now a MMO with micro-transactions.

[stray kitten]

Originally Posted by Paft

I didn't bother reading the thread, but I just had to tell you this...

WTF have they done to TF2? I spotted it on sale atm. £3.50! (or whatever in your land) the pic looks ridiculous. Helmets/hats and bows & arrows.

I could understand people liking standard TF2 (they way it should be) but wtf is this?!

The bow and arrow for the sniper is fun, especially on maps like 2 fort. In fact it's a fucking blast and significantly changes the snipers role and game play. Never liked TF2, FF or TFC sniper game play myself, except to take out some heavy rush if I had too. Caping those fat fuckers as they stumble across the field. But items like the bow and jarate make him fun for me.

There is a thread on here discussing getting rid of the FF sniper. Talk about fucking up the concept of Team Fortress. Enter something crazy like the bow. Tis a less powerful sniper weapon that is useless at extreme range. Something similar would mix up FF a bit maybe. As a sniper you can choose typical long range weapons with critical head shot hits for large area maps, or closer in non-critical more hands on weapons such as the bow for quick high damage cover for local area offensive or backup defense when the enemy is close to the a last cap point because of a couple of mini-crit items. While TF2 limits the use of grenades, it adds a wide assortment of weapons load out. Including hats and bows. Wait until people see the new cross bow the medic has. Now that's fucked up.

The whole trading thing does make TF2 seem to be a MMO type. Either good or bad it has less to do with game play. You can't deny the draw of hats though on a lot of players, it's a little crazy. But seeing an engy with Christmas lights on his helmet is hilarious. One thing that trading does do is let seasoned players give promising noobs some better weapons.

[KubeDawg]

Originally Posted by JackBauer

People these days are lazy fucks. They don't want to take the time to sit down and learn something. if they can't master it within 5 mins they give up.

They don't like challenges, they just quit.

This. It's unfortunate, but today, people are wanting more and more instant gratification in games. As we all become more wired into things, the quicker we want things to be. One day I hope we all have computers that are never slow, start up immediately, and work exactly how I want it to. And one day, that will become a reality. The problem is how much patience the average person has.

If I play a new game, it literally has to WOW me before I'll even think about renting/buying it. Fortress Forever needs a WOW factor in its arsenal.

First, people need to find out about this mod. There should be more quality videos and screenshots of FF that will entice people to play the mod in the first place.

With the exception of some of the newer maps that have been made that look great, some older maps such as shutdown2 or well I think need a visual update at the very least. They look dull and gray.

There also needs to be more events and activities. Not just pickups, but fun and even random things to do. This can probably be achieved simply by sending an announcement to people who are part of the FF steam group, or an email sent to all forum members to come play. This would also help getting people to play this mod if announcements are made when the new version of FF is released.

There needs to be a balance when it comes to content and hype. Not enough hype, you won't get anyone to play. Too much hype compared to content and you risk the same thing. What happened to FF's PR person(s)?

I see some potentially awesome features being tested in Beta and showcasing each of the major updates in a video I think would greatly increase interest from those who've given up on FF.

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by JackBauer

People these days are lazy fucks. They don't want to take the time to sit down and learn something. if they can't master it within 5 mins they give up.

That's complete bullshit. People want to be able to learn how to do things quickly, but I think they expect mastery to take a while. In Team Fortress 2, the game is pretty much instantly playable on the same level as everyone else, because the game caters to a low standard; not to say that's a bad thing. It's mastery that takes a while.

Fortress Forever is different. It caters to the competitive player who already knows how to bunnyhop and strafejump and all of that shit, so beginners not only have to deal with long mastery times, but long times before they're able to play the game on the same standard as everyone else; the standard in mind when developing this game.

People want instant gratification. I don't see why the fuck you would fault them for it. It's a video game; a source of entertainment, isn't that the point? People will easily deal with learning curves and skill mastery if it's fun and they aren't gimped in the process. Fortress Forever catering to a "pros" gimps new players severely, so it isn't fun competing to get better (and this is compounded by the fact that a large portion of competitive players are assholes) and as such, no one sticks around.

One reason people stick with games is because getting better means experiencing the game with a new perspective each and every time they improve. Given how difficult it is to improve in this game, due to how unintuitive some of the mechanics are, how demanding they are due to catering to "pros", and how most of their competition is avoided for their personality disorders, reaching that "milestone" where the game becomes enjoyable again or refreshed is rare, and as such, beginners give up.

[episkopos]

I don't know, Bridget. I can see your point, but what would you remove from Fortress Forever if you had control over the development? Bunnyhopping? Conc jumping? Trimping? Ramp sliding?

Many of the classes are fairly accessible. Soldier is pretty much the same as he was in TF2 in 2007. HWGuy, ditto. Sniper is pretty similar too. As is Pyro. Engineer is fairly straightforward too.

So there you are, with 5/9 of the common classes, it's possible to get frags provided you have some basic FPS skills. I'd say demoman is sort of borderline, but even he can be summed up in 1) lay pipes 2) det pipes when enemy is within range of them.

It's only really scout, medic and spy who either 1) have a lot of necessary but complicated features or 2) are very reliant on advanced movement.

[Lynus]

the only reason the pickup community is full of assholes is because the rules are never enforced due to :
a)admins letting friends off the hook
b)squeek choosing shitty admins
and sadly
c)lack of players - which shouldn't matter when it comes to following the rules


anyways back on topic:

ff imo is a hardcore online team-based fps. it should say that on the front page and the player models should reflect that. people should realize this before they download it. there is a learningcurve.

[Lost]

I think the reasoning lies more along the lines that what we see as traditional fortress-style gameplay has become "unpopular." It was a breakthrough with TF and further defined by TFC, advanced by games like tribes and remade through TF2.

I only played TFC and a little ETF but I could see the similarities between Tribes, UT's version of CTF and what we commonly associate with fortress style CTF: advanced movement and insanely fast pacing. And I think this is what is now obsolete. I'm not a console gamer (in that I don't play FPS's online on consoles) but it seems that capture the point or DM is the most popular in today's franchises. Halo, Battlefield, and CoD all seem to be DM-friendly game environments with their matchmaking and instant-action oriented populations.

Even though there are some huge discrepancies between new players in FF and TF2, it doesn't really seem to matter if FF was made more newb friendly than TF2, put on Steam and spammed all over the internet. The players probably wouldn't stay, even if we rehashed all the models and textures to look like a new Source game. This style of gameplay just doesn't seem to have the pull it once did.

[episkopos]

I think Lost has a good point. I also think there's a publicity problem: Valve did a good job of saturating the internet with TF2 word-of-mouth marketing, while FF remains obscure and looks dead to many people.

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by episkopos

I don't know, Bridget. I can see your point, but what would you remove from Fortress Forever if you had control over the development? Bunnyhopping? Conc jumping? Trimping? Ramp sliding?

I wouldn't remove any of that. I would just try and simplify it. Bunny-hopping should be as simple as holding down jump and steering with the mouse. I think secondary grenades should be removed. They should be replaced with some sort of class-unique ability on cooldown. The Scout can get an on-demand concussion jump ability. Bam, press a button and get sent flying in the direction you are moving, airborne if you jump into it. Medic could get some adrenaline boost effect that increases his movement speed (and healing rate because I'd try adding healing AoE.) Spy could get some cloak effect. Heavy could get a shield effect maybe. You get the idea. I'd also get rid of that extra slot. Each class should have a primary weapon, a secondary weapon, and a melee weapon. Nothing more, nothing less. Oh yeah, fix the Sentry Gun. etc etc

[KubeDawg]

Yeah lack of marketing and PR I think has a big role in why the community is so small.

This game is fun to play right now, but when it was released, you could definitely tell people preferred TF2 to FF. Now that TF2 has had a name change to TFRPG2, I'm sure some people are itching to try something new(not new as in brand new, but new to them).

The most powerful form of advertising is word of mouth. We need people who do the opposite of talk shit about this mod... Spread the word.

Let me ask something. If a new patch is released for FF, exactly what is the point if 0 people know about it other than active community we already have?

The same can be said for any previous patch with the exception of the initial release and maybe 2.1's release.

Also, despite the crappy quality of youtube in general, (HD is sloooow to load and no one wants to watch low quality videos) I think it's the best media outlet we have with the most users. So youtube should be the main source of video content for FF. And I'm also of the impression that the more, the merrier. So uploading to wegame, vimeo and other similar video sites is a good idea.

Finally, unrelated but what happened to being able to download maps directly from www.fortress-forever.com? It would eliminate a lot of frustration players have when another map download doesn't work or if they're missing the LUA or something similar.

Same should go for player models, sound files, FF wallpapers, etc along with instructions on how to install each.

[GenghisTron]

PR and lack of advertising means nothing. There's been tens (potentially hundreds?) of thousands of people who have tried this game. I for one remember playing on release day, there were hundreds of completely full servers. The FF page on moddb.org is a prominent mod page, and gets commented on nearly every day (last I checked). The source modding community is full of dedicated devotees.

The last problem with this mod is the advertising or (lack of) PR. The reason why this mod is dying, is because there's no staying power for newer, less motivated players. There's no achievements, no unlockables, no nothing. And as I pointed out in a thread recently, sure, *YOU* may be a gamer that doesn't need all those things to keep you playing, but you have no right to compain when the game dies because you resisted efforts to make it more accessible. Making the game more accessible for newer players doesn't mean you have to alter gameplay, just add things to give newer or casual players a reason to stick around, other than chatting in servers.

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by GenghisTron

...

tr00 tr00

[JackBauer]

Originally Posted by Bridget

That's complete bullshit. People want to be able to learn how to do things quickly, but I think they expect mastery to take a while. In Team Fortress 2, the game is pretty much instantly playable on the same level as everyone else, because the game caters to a low standard; not to say that's a bad thing. It's mastery that takes a while.

Fortress Forever is different. It caters to the competitive player who already knows how to bunnyhop and strafejump and all of that shit, so beginners not only have to deal with long mastery times, but long times before they're able to play the game on the same standard as everyone else; the standard in mind when developing this game.

People want instant gratification. I don't see why the fuck you would fault them for it. It's a video game; a source of entertainment, isn't that the point? People will easily deal with learning curves and skill mastery if it's fun and they aren't gimped in the process. Fortress Forever catering to a "pros" gimps new players severely, so it isn't fun competing to get better (and this is compounded by the fact that a large portion of competitive players are assholes) and as such, no one sticks around.

One reason people stick with games is because getting better means experiencing the game with a new perspective each and every time they improve. Given how difficult it is to improve in this game, due to how unintuitive some of the mechanics are, how demanding they are due to catering to "pros", and how most of their competition is avoided for their personality disorders, reaching that "milestone" where the game becomes enjoyable again or refreshed is rare, and as such, beginners give up.

It's not complete bullshit, because that's the way it is. Back then when TFC started there weren't many alternatives (CS, DoD later) and may be UT and quake. today you get tons of different games.

Back then you were being forced to take the time to learn the mechanics. back then it took you months to reach the next level. by the way, TFC is the far more difficult game than FF. FF is very easy, although still takes a bit time to get to know it.

Today you don't need to learn anything if you don't want to. TF2 for example. Get on a server and if you know how to handle a mouse you get instant kills. it doesn't take much skill - but that's ok.

Each to their own. if people wanna play that, fair enough to them.

I prefer so called hardcore games that require some skill and time. kinda like sports in real life.

[zE]

Originally Posted by GenghisTron

PR and lack of advertising means nothing. There's been tens (potentially hundreds?) of thousands of people who have tried this game. I for one remember playing on release day, there were hundreds of completely full servers. The FF page on moddb.org is a prominent mod page, and gets commented on nearly every day (last I checked). The source modding community is full of dedicated devotees.

The last problem with this mod is the advertising or (lack of) PR. The reason why this mod is dying, is because there's no staying power for newer, less motivated players. There's no achievements, no unlockables, no nothing. And as I pointed out in a thread recently, sure, *YOU* may be a gamer that doesn't need all those things to keep you playing, but you have no right to compain when the game dies because you resisted efforts to make it more accessible. Making the game more accessible for newer players doesn't mean you have to alter gameplay, just add things to give newer or casual players a reason to stick around, other than chatting in servers.

+1 I agree completly