Flaw in TFC that perhaps can be corrected in FF?

o_puppy_chow · 03-12-2005, 04:27 AM

Ok - I KNOW that tfc is an arcade-style game and not a ww I or II style, realistic mod. HOWEVER, most the things that should make sense in tfc currently do.

That is, of course, the glaring and stupifing lack of ability of a team to return their own flag.

I mean, cmon, your sittting there in crossover2 and the enemy team has mangaed to get the flag to the uper level in your own courtyard, but the wave has ben vanquished and currently the flag just SITS. Whey cant the defensive team in this situation return their own flag?? They are staring at it, looking at the pretty colors in it, feeling all patriotic and such, but in the end, all they do is stare!! No enemys are around...I know this is aracade, but does it not seem retarded that someone from the defensive team cant walk their own flag back? And it gets even more weird that a team can touch and move the ENEMYS flag, but they have no control of their own? Cmon...thats silly.

Enough rant. I propose in the interest of logic and just making things right: (these are all mutually exclusive, i.e., just some ideas - pick ONE)

1) No touch returns - the D team has to WALK the flag back in its entirety.

or

2) Only a certain class can take the flag back. The only 2 that make sense are scout and eng, and eng more that scout. Perhaps the eng has to involve an extraction process to take the flag back, resulting in a delay such as when building a sentry?

Potential rebuttals - trying to head you off at the pass about what you might say - I hope new arguements are raised cuz im dumbfounded on this.

1) "Hey mr., with your gameplay, no one will ever cap!"

Completely untrue. Skilled medics, scouts and sollys can make a cap completely unscatched (or at least alive) and any other class capping is just piccking up the garbage anyways.

2) "Hey mr., with your idea, scores will be so low!"

To you dear son, I say yes! 40 to 30 games where it is more difficult to cap are MUCH more satisifying than 110-90 games.....

3) "Hey mr., your ideas change tfc too much for my comfort level - isn't that wrong??!"

Ahh young lad, the sweetness and sorrow of growing up is realizing that we sometimes need to get out of our comfort zone to do what is best for all. The devs here have stressed this with tweaking of classes and maps - TFC wasn't perfect - some things have to change.

There is my winded thesis. After all that it still comes down to the fact that I stand next to my flag in our own yard but can do nothing about it - YET I can fondle the enemy flag like micheal jackson touches little ones? Makes no sense. I hope I did. Thanks for reading-

Puppy Chow

Catch us on Frenchys low grav server

o_rebo · 03-12-2005, 04:49 AM

Sorry puppy_chow but noone would cap. Not even 1 or 2 a round. Every game would be a 0-0. It works for very open games like tribes 2, but TFC is relatively confined game , meaning plenty of opportunity to stop a flag going out in 1 swoop.

o_puppy_chow · 03-12-2005, 04:54 AM

i COMPLETELY disagree with that synopsis. ppl would cap - you do relize that most CTF games are like this do you not? Not only that - they are TOUCH returns, not carrying returns, as I am proposing.

Your statement that scores would be zero-zero would imply that tfc cap gamplay is the norm, when it in fact is the rarity. Those other games cap fine!

o_puppy_chow · 03-12-2005, 05:08 AM

tacking on...i cannot tell you how many caps i see on a nightly basis are done by a single person - they may be hurting by the time they cap, but with concing, rocket jumps or whatever it happens all the time. my suggestion reinforces even more the idea of team work when trying to get the flag...

i am open to thrashing of my idea, but your mentioning that no one would cap is maddenling incorrect and misguided.

o_rebo · 03-12-2005, 05:27 AM

Unfortunatly i really dont think it would work. Maybe on a partially empty pubic server, i think there you might get a few home runs. But versus a coordinated defense i really doubt anyone would capture the flag.

I also think defending the flag at different positions adds to the game and makes it more about tactics than about DM with flags.

o_ink · 03-12-2005, 05:37 AM

Defensive flag return? The game would turn into soccer. 2-1 match scores. ::yawn::

o_vertical · 03-12-2005, 05:40 AM

What did you think would happen when a newb joined the game, grabbed up his teams flag, and just kept it? or better yet, someone who likes to ruin the game runs to the furthest back end of the base who is extremely good at the game and holds the flag, the enemy finally manages to kill him, and on the way out, he kills the enemy guy, grabs the flag again and runs back to where he was. Sorry man, it just won't work. I can think of a thousand more reasons as well, but this one is the most apparent.

o_wookiee · 03-12-2005, 05:40 AM

I totally agree with rebo. The touch returns/carry returns would totally destroy the dynamic of the game.

I can't count the times I've thrown or dropped the flag as a spy just outside of the enemy base just to watch one of my teams medics conc in grab the flag and conc out. To me, it's moment's like that that make TFC so much different than all the other vanilla MP games out there.

Not to mention the flag stays in place for 1 minute after dropped. This provides more than enough time for each team to setup defense in the new area.

I would hate to see this MOD take a direction of touch returns. TFC gameplay would be totally ruined.

Another case in point, imagine trying to cap in Rock 2 if the all the defending team had to do was touch or carry the key back to their keyroom. NO good.

Cheers

o_darkside · 03-12-2005, 06:06 AM

OK PPL first of all... INK - Football (soccer) is not boring, dont say it is since just cuz the US isnt into it and there by is missing the whole point or soccer spirit. anyway thats a discussion for another time/thread.

Now puppy, i really like the way you proposed you idea, but unfortunatly i dont agree with it. REASONS:

A big aspect of gameplay will be lost which is the other team having to communicate with each other about where the flag is.

I am aware that other CTF games r touch returns but in them, there are no real defensive classes like in TFC there is just weapons. This leads to my next point.

Defence would be wayyyy to easy and trends would develope: your team would just have to know what the best D set up is on a map (where to sentry, where to guard with sollys where to guard with HW guys etc. in order to Defend for the flags home place... then whenever anyone would try to cap and drop it, you just have a scout run it back without changing your Defense set up at all. Like the way its done now, teams have to be able to dynamically change their D around to match where their flag is.

o_etzell · 03-12-2005, 06:31 AM

Your idea of flag returning encourages "Coast-to-coast" capping. Which is NOT what TFC is about. In games that encourage teams to "C2C," personal score is the major driving force behind players. However, in TFC, you're supposed to be reliant on your team. Instead of one player getting the cap, it's supposed to be a team effort, where everyone (on O) gets their hand on the flag. So, if you decide that defenders can return flags, what's the point in actually organizing an offense, instead of training one person to DM and the other to C2C every time.

Long story short: last I checked, this is TEAM Fortress Classic, not "I Fortress Classic."

o_ivaqual · 03-12-2005, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebo

Unfortunatly i really dont think it would work. Maybe on a partially empty pubic server, i think there you might get a few home runs. But versus a coordinated defense i really doubt anyone would capture the flag.

I also think defending the flag at different positions adds to the game and makes it more about tactics than about DM with flags.

[/thread]

o_jefferino · 03-12-2005, 08:09 AM

Didn't we discuss this in a different thread already?!?!

o_elvis2049 · 03-12-2005, 09:27 AM

indeed and there we all disided that touch return wouldnt work in tfc

play map 2fort it becomes realy inpossible 2 cap a flag if it has flagreturn.
1 of the reasons is becouse like other ctf games you all have the same weapons and hp/armor, couse you dont got class difference.
+ the maps are more open than the normal tfc map.
so iff yall want 0 caps on a clanmatch than put flagtouchreturn in ....

o_anthraxium[wu] · 03-12-2005, 09:43 AM

request DENIED

would ruin the game ...

thats nice if you think it works for other CTF games, but all of those CTF games are not TFC ...

no other game is quite like TFC (pending FF

) thus no gameplay changes can work as they have in the other games ...

o_eat · 03-12-2005, 10:31 AM

No

Quote:

After all that it still comes down to the fact that I stand next to my flag in our own yard but can do nothing about it

How about kill anyone who comes near it? Or is that too hard

o_qbaler · 03-12-2005, 11:19 AM

This will never take place in a well done ctf game.

As I see it there are two ways for them to return the flag.

1) touch-based = way too freaken easy. The offense manages to get the flag to their base where an nmy offense player shoots them odwn and returns the flag. (yaya ceartain class only .. what? hwguy? please)

2) carry = you ever play flagrun with flag holders? annoying huh? same deal

this would eliminate a lot of the "team" in the name and a lot of the "fun" in offense.

you ever play rock2? horrible map for big #'s, just turns into d vs d. What about when an offense finnaly gets key to yard.. o has a good chance... not if they can just return it.

I'm sorry but in the end I've played both defense and ofense a lot and you taking away the flag and letting ythem cary it back would eliminate a lot of the team work, make the offense job ridiculosly hard (assuming tfc style maps) and would open the doors to lamers.

qbaler disaproves and says "changes for the worse and makes capping near imposible with tfc maps"

o_lethal01 · 03-12-2005, 12:08 PM

CTF style capping would work on maps made for it, but the regular old Team Fortress maps are just not made for that. As I think some dev said in the other thread that it would be an option for the mapper, we will probably see a map or two with regular CTF flag returns.

o_ekim · 03-12-2005, 02:39 PM

TFC is a game. The flag is not behaving like a real object, that should be obvious..

Quote:

1) No touch returns - the D team has to WALK the flag back in its entirety.

People would stand in respawn or hide in some dark corner with the flag.

Quote:

2) Only a certain class can take the flag back.

How does that make any more sense than nobody being able to do it?

Quote:

Completely untrue. Skilled medics, scouts and sollys can make a cap completely unscatched (or at least alive) and any other class capping is just piccking up the garbage anyways.

In a clan match on most maps, homeruns are extremely rare. The gameplay dynamic would have to be changed significantly to allow more homeruns.

Quote:

2) "Hey mr., with your idea, scores will be so low!"

To you dear son, I say yes! 40 to 30 games where it is more difficult to cap are MUCH more satisifying than 110-90 games.....

10 to 0 games where someone got lucky to get one flag out are not much fun [see LoG vs. r~ on mortality! :P ].

Quote:

3) "Hey mr., your ideas change tfc too much for my comfort level - isn't that wrong??!"

Ahh young lad, the sweetness and sorrow of growing up is realizing that we sometimes need to get out of our comfort zone to do what is best for all.

Well here you are just being patronising, when your idea is not really well thought out at all.

Jiggles · 03-12-2005, 02:43 PM

Well, I'm glad there are some topics we can all agree on

o_puppy_chow · 03-12-2005, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by qbaler

This will never take place in a well done ctf game.

how about every ctf game up to date has been like this.

but i guess they were not well done.

ppl say this would bring about LESS teamwork? NO. It would bring about more as the attacks have to be much more coordinated. have an hw and a solly in the basement of 2fort? have to medics go at the same time and conc their ass - problem solved, flag is available.

maybe I just play on servers that have higher skilled players and getting from a to b aint that much of an issue and D is an easy thing to take care of when approached correctly.

it is still retarded that i can look at my own flag but cant touch it to take it back. i stand by that statement. i also think if you cant hity one coast to coast in the game you must suck.

but i see most of the responses will be shit so screw you guys, I'm goin home.

03-12-2005, 04:27 AM	#1
o_puppy_chow Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Flaw in TFC that perhaps can be corrected in FF? Ok - I KNOW that tfc is an arcade-style game and not a ww I or II style, realistic mod. HOWEVER, most the things that should make sense in tfc currently do. That is, of course, the glaring and stupifing lack of ability of a team to return their own flag. I mean, cmon, your sittting there in crossover2 and the enemy team has mangaed to get the flag to the uper level in your own courtyard, but the wave has ben vanquished and currently the flag just SITS. Whey cant the defensive team in this situation return their own flag?? They are staring at it, looking at the pretty colors in it, feeling all patriotic and such, but in the end, all they do is stare!! No enemys are around...I know this is aracade, but does it not seem retarded that someone from the defensive team cant walk their own flag back? And it gets even more weird that a team can touch and move the ENEMYS flag, but they have no control of their own? Cmon...thats silly. Enough rant. I propose in the interest of logic and just making things right: (these are all mutually exclusive, i.e., just some ideas - pick ONE) 1) No touch returns - the D team has to WALK the flag back in its entirety. or 2) Only a certain class can take the flag back. The only 2 that make sense are scout and eng, and eng more that scout. Perhaps the eng has to involve an extraction process to take the flag back, resulting in a delay such as when building a sentry? Potential rebuttals - trying to head you off at the pass about what you might say - I hope new arguements are raised cuz im dumbfounded on this. 1) "Hey mr., with your gameplay, no one will ever cap!" Completely untrue. Skilled medics, scouts and sollys can make a cap completely unscatched (or at least alive) and any other class capping is just piccking up the garbage anyways. 2) "Hey mr., with your idea, scores will be so low!" To you dear son, I say yes! 40 to 30 games where it is more difficult to cap are MUCH more satisifying than 110-90 games..... 3) "Hey mr., your ideas change tfc too much for my comfort level - isn't that wrong??!" Ahh young lad, the sweetness and sorrow of growing up is realizing that we sometimes need to get out of our comfort zone to do what is best for all. The devs here have stressed this with tweaking of classes and maps - TFC wasn't perfect - some things have to change. There is my winded thesis. After all that it still comes down to the fact that I stand next to my flag in our own yard but can do nothing about it - YET I can fondle the enemy flag like micheal jackson touches little ones? Makes no sense. I hope I did. Thanks for reading- Puppy Chow Catch us on Frenchys low grav server

03-12-2005, 04:49 AM	#2
o_rebo Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times	Sorry puppy_chow but noone would cap. Not even 1 or 2 a round. Every game would be a 0-0. It works for very open games like tribes 2, but TFC is relatively confined game , meaning plenty of opportunity to stop a flag going out in 1 swoop.

03-12-2005, 04:54 AM	#3
o_puppy_chow Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	i COMPLETELY disagree with that synopsis. ppl would cap - you do relize that most CTF games are like this do you not? Not only that - they are TOUCH returns, not carrying returns, as I am proposing. Your statement that scores would be zero-zero would imply that tfc cap gamplay is the norm, when it in fact is the rarity. Those other games cap fine!

03-12-2005, 05:08 AM	#4
o_puppy_chow Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	tacking on...i cannot tell you how many caps i see on a nightly basis are done by a single person - they may be hurting by the time they cap, but with concing, rocket jumps or whatever it happens all the time. my suggestion reinforces even more the idea of team work when trying to get the flag... i am open to thrashing of my idea, but your mentioning that no one would cap is maddenling incorrect and misguided.

03-12-2005, 05:27 AM	#5
o_rebo Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times	Unfortunatly i really dont think it would work. Maybe on a partially empty pubic server, i think there you might get a few home runs. But versus a coordinated defense i really doubt anyone would capture the flag. I also think defending the flag at different positions adds to the game and makes it more about tactics than about DM with flags.

03-12-2005, 05:37 AM	#6
o_ink Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Defensive flag return? The game would turn into soccer. 2-1 match scores. ::yawn::

03-12-2005, 05:40 AM	#7
o_vertical Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: USA, KY Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	What did you think would happen when a newb joined the game, grabbed up his teams flag, and just kept it? or better yet, someone who likes to ruin the game runs to the furthest back end of the base who is extremely good at the game and holds the flag, the enemy finally manages to kill him, and on the way out, he kills the enemy guy, grabs the flag again and runs back to where he was. Sorry man, it just won't work. I can think of a thousand more reasons as well, but this one is the most apparent.

03-12-2005, 05:40 AM	#8
o_wookiee Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I totally agree with rebo. The touch returns/carry returns would totally destroy the dynamic of the game. I can't count the times I've thrown or dropped the flag as a spy just outside of the enemy base just to watch one of my teams medics conc in grab the flag and conc out. To me, it's moment's like that that make TFC so much different than all the other vanilla MP games out there. Not to mention the flag stays in place for 1 minute after dropped. This provides more than enough time for each team to setup defense in the new area. I would hate to see this MOD take a direction of touch returns. TFC gameplay would be totally ruined. Another case in point, imagine trying to cap in Rock 2 if the all the defending team had to do was touch or carry the key back to their keyroom. NO good. Cheers

03-12-2005, 06:06 AM	#9
o_darkside Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	OK PPL first of all... INK - Football (soccer) is not boring, dont say it is since just cuz the US isnt into it and there by is missing the whole point or soccer spirit. anyway thats a discussion for another time/thread. Now puppy, i really like the way you proposed you idea, but unfortunatly i dont agree with it. REASONS: A big aspect of gameplay will be lost which is the other team having to communicate with each other about where the flag is. I am aware that other CTF games r touch returns but in them, there are no real defensive classes like in TFC there is just weapons. This leads to my next point. Defence would be wayyyy to easy and trends would develope: your team would just have to know what the best D set up is on a map (where to sentry, where to guard with sollys where to guard with HW guys etc. in order to Defend for the flags home place... then whenever anyone would try to cap and drop it, you just have a scout run it back without changing your Defense set up at all. Like the way its done now, teams have to be able to dynamically change their D around to match where their flag is.

03-12-2005, 06:31 AM	#10
o_etzell Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Your idea of flag returning encourages "Coast-to-coast" capping. Which is NOT what TFC is about. In games that encourage teams to "C2C," personal score is the major driving force behind players. However, in TFC, you're supposed to be reliant on your team. Instead of one player getting the cap, it's supposed to be a team effort, where everyone (on O) gets their hand on the flag. So, if you decide that defenders can return flags, what's the point in actually organizing an offense, instead of training one person to DM and the other to C2C every time. Long story short: last I checked, this is TEAM Fortress Classic, not "I Fortress Classic."

03-12-2005, 08:09 AM	#12
o_jefferino Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Didn't we discuss this in a different thread already?!?!

03-12-2005, 09:27 AM	#13
o_elvis2049 Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	indeed and there we all disided that touch return wouldnt work in tfc play map 2fort it becomes realy inpossible 2 cap a flag if it has flagreturn. 1 of the reasons is becouse like other ctf games you all have the same weapons and hp/armor, couse you dont got class difference. + the maps are more open than the normal tfc map. so iff yall want 0 caps on a clanmatch than put flagtouchreturn in ....

03-12-2005, 09:43 AM	#14
o_anthraxium[wu] Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: California Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	request DENIED would ruin the game ... thats nice if you think it works for other CTF games, but all of those CTF games are not TFC ... no other game is quite like TFC (pending FF ) thus no gameplay changes can work as they have in the other games ...

03-12-2005, 11:19 AM	#16
o_qbaler Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Boston Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	This will never take place in a well done ctf game. As I see it there are two ways for them to return the flag. 1) touch-based = way too freaken easy. The offense manages to get the flag to their base where an nmy offense player shoots them odwn and returns the flag. (yaya ceartain class only .. what? hwguy? please) 2) carry = you ever play flagrun with flag holders? annoying huh? same deal this would eliminate a lot of the "team" in the name and a lot of the "fun" in offense. you ever play rock2? horrible map for big #'s, just turns into d vs d. What about when an offense finnaly gets key to yard.. o has a good chance... not if they can just return it. I'm sorry but in the end I've played both defense and ofense a lot and you taking away the flag and letting ythem cary it back would eliminate a lot of the team work, make the offense job ridiculosly hard (assuming tfc style maps) and would open the doors to lamers. *qbaler disaproves and says "changes for the worse and makes capping near imposible with tfc maps"*

03-12-2005, 12:08 PM	#17
o_lethal01 Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	CTF style capping would work on maps made for it, but the regular old Team Fortress maps are just not made for that. As I think some dev said in the other thread that it would be an option for the mapper, we will probably see a map or two with regular CTF flag returns.

03-12-2005, 02:43 PM	#19
Jiggles Retired FF Staff Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: CowTown Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Well, I'm glad there are some topics we can all agree on

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