Engineer Buildable Ideas - gogogo?

[episkopos]

Originally Posted by Hammock

What these people who complain about charging it in a straight line and survive don't realize is the person isn't actually charging it in a straight line. They're strafing side to side (sort of a zig-zag motion), which causes the SG to loose its lock and just stop firing.

That's why medics/scouts are never standing still when nail gunning an sg, they zig-zag until they're close enough to circle strafe the thing. It actually takes a degree of skill to accomplish this. But others who don't know about it or can't do it, just think the sg is pure fail because they don't understand the trick involved.

People who charge it in a straight line die very quickly.

Yeah, I very quickly learned to zigzag and circle strafe. And half the time I still get killed by one of the engy's teammates.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by episkopos

Are we playing the same game? I've never survived more than a few seconds of charging an SG in a straight line.

I'll try and explain this again. The sg kills you, yes, but you move forward during that time and can do a lot of damage. If you want to take out the sg, currently any class with a grenade can get close enough to dump them on a suicide run to the sg. More importantly, if you're a flag runner, you can keep moving the flag forward in those few seconds and cap. It's mindless, you can repeat the same tactic over and over and cap WAY faster than in the past. In the case of AvD, that means game over.

Originally Posted by Hammock

What these people who complain about charging it in a straight line and survive don't realize is the person isn't actually charging it in a straight line. They're strafing side to side (sort of a zig-zag motion), which causes the SG to loose its lock and just stop firing.

I'm referring to both situations actually. I do strafe jumping and go side to side when I go straight at it to get more speed and I can always move the flag forward that way unless I've been sniped or there was a pipe trap IN ADDITION to the sg. A beginner can still just run in a straight line however and move the flag forward. Yes he'll die fast, but the flag is getting moved in a situation it wouldn't have in the past.

Originally Posted by Hammock

That's why medics/scouts are never standing still when nail gunning an sg, they zig-zag until they're close enough to circle strafe the thing. It actually takes a degree of skill to accomplish this. But others who don't know about it or can't do it, just think the sg is pure fail because they don't understand the trick involved.

I think we're talking about different situations. If a player can actually run up from an off-angle to get close enough to an sg, I have no problem with that. I'm talking about a situation where the sg has already begun firing on (and hitting) the player from a moderate distance, but the player is able to run up to the sg anyway. That simply didn't happen in TFC. It pushed players back.

EDIT:

If there's still confusion on this I can draw a picture of what I'm talking about.

[episkopos]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

I'll try and explain this again. The sg kills you, yes, but you move forward during that time and can do a lot of damage. If you want to take out the sg, currently any class with a grenade can get close enough to dump them on a suicide run to the sg. More importantly, if you're a flag runner, you can keep moving the flag forward in those few seconds and cap. It's mindless, you can repeat the same tactic over and over and cap WAY faster than in the past. In the case of AvD, that means game over.

So basically, you want a TF2-style sentry that quickly murders enemies and causes enormous knockback? While that may be balanced on AvD, it would ruin a lot of CTF maps, which work extremely well with the SG as it currently is.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by episkopos

So basically, you want a TF2-style sentry that quickly murders enemies and causes enormous knockback? While that may be balanced on AvD, it would ruin a lot of CTF maps, which work extremely well with the SG as it currently is.

I don't play TF2, I don't really know how powerful it is now. I do know it takes more time to build, a concept I like, since then the sg feels more like an investment instead of something disposable. I would like a TFC-style sentry, you know, the game this whole mod is inspired by. What I really want is balanced AvD, which hasn't happened since FF 1.11. Even then that had some holes in it, but it was FAR closer than anything we've had since then. While there are a lot of contributing factors, dramatically reducing sentry gun push I think is arguably the single biggest element that unbalanced AvD. The balance differences between 2.0 and 2.1 were abysmal for AvD, it's never really recovered, and that's the single biggest thing that was changed then.

Here's a question that I ask a lot, but never seem to get a straight answer to:

If CTF would be ruined by having a sentry that actually pushed people back, which is exactly what FF 1.x and TFC did, was CTF for those games ruined as well? If not, why not? What's so fundamentally different about modern FF that pushing players away with the sg ruins all of CTF?

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

and I can always move the flag forward that way unless I've been sniped or there was a pipe trap IN ADDITION to the sg.

This line here stands out the most to me in your post. This makes me believe you actually think the sg should be able to solo defend a flag.

"Oh I can always move the flag forward... unless there is another defender defending the flag".

So what happens to the game if the SG were tweaked so it can defend the flag solo, and then there were other defenders defending it?

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Here's a question that I ask a lot, but never seem to get a straight answer to:

If CTF would be ruined by having a sentry that actually pushed people back, which is exactly what FF 1.x and TFC did, was CTF for those games ruined as well? If not, why not? What's so fundamentally different about modern FF that pushing players away with the sg ruins all of CTF?

Push is being increased.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Hammock

This line here stands out the most to me in your post. This makes me believe you actually think the sg should be able to solo defend a flag.

Unless they're using actual tactics (attacking from long range, coming from an alternate route, waiting for teammates to draw fire, etc.), I DO believe an engineer + sg SHOULD be able to always stop ONE flag runner running straight towards it, yes.

Originally Posted by Hammock

So what happens to the game if the SG were tweaked so it can defend the flag solo, and then there were other defenders defending it?

Then, god forbid, you would need MORE than one attacker!

Originally Posted by squeek.

Push is being increased.

I can't judge because I haven't seen it, but all you've said so far is that it can stop the slowest class in the game, and hwguys aren't exactly known for capping in the first place. 2.4 was an increase as well and it didn't make much of a difference. I'm a little cynical in that every "increase" will still be below what was working 3 years ago.

[episkopos]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

If CTF would be ruined by having a sentry that actually pushed people back, which is exactly what FF 1.x and TFC did, was CTF for those games ruined as well? If not, why not? What's so fundamentally different about modern FF that pushing players away with the sg ruins all of CTF?

As it currently stands, on a CTF map, a highly organised skillful defense consisting of, say, a solly and HWGuy guarding important entrances, an engy with his SG overlooking the flag and a demoman with pipes on the flag, present a formidable challenge to offense.

I wasn't there for 1.11, so I can't really comment. I assume during beta tests for 2.1 it was discovered a weak disposable SG was more fun, or at least more suited to the pace of FF, than a strong TFC-style SG.

I can understand Bridget's point about engineer with a strong SG being a good beginner class, as it was in TFC, but I'm not sure how much effect it would really have on FF's ability to keep players. Probably the best thing for newbies would be a tutorial and a more visible hints system.

[Elmo]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

I'm a little cynical in that every "increase" will still be below what was working 3 years ago.

Maybe becayse we reduced said things for a good reason, so yeah I'm not sure cynical is the right word here. We've never said we'll revert the values. But yes the 2.42 push.. you CAN feel it and it IS nice.

Carry on you little record you I won't stop you..

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by episkopos

but I'm not sure how much effect it would really have on FF's ability to keep players.

This is a very ironic statement for a couple reasons. First, I personally had multiple friends who were enjoying FF AvD quit because the balance changes got ludicrous. In 1.x they were having a blast, they were all gone after 2.1. Before that happened, I loved FF 1.x so much I was actually gearing up to try and have a bit of a FF campaign, make a badass trailer for it, promote it on my site, try and make a related machinima series, but after seeing the changes then, it completely discouraged me because I felt like the direction the game was being taken (in my eyes, unbalanced AvD), wasn't something I wanted to endorse.

The other reason is you're probably right. FF has become so CTF centric that the majority of REMAINING players probably are CTF oriented and this is a lost cause on my part.

Originally Posted by Elmo

Maybe becayse we reduced said things for a good reason, so yeah I'm not sure cynical is the right word here.

Yes, I'm aware of these good reasons:

Originally Posted by squeek.

I was on the beta team during 2.0 testing, and I can say that from my point of view the testing during that patch was how you imagine it (and maybe even how Bridget wants it). We didn't seem to do much balance testing. We tested things to make sure they worked, weren't abusable, and moved on.

Originally Posted by squeek.

We may have balanced the game without fully realizing the impact of 2.0 changes on public AvD, as the 2.1 dev team was about 90% composed of different people to the dev team that released 2.0.

- - - -

Originally Posted by Elmo

Carry on you little record

Fine, I'll stop. I get kind of sucked in when there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what I'm saying (you'd think people would get it as many ways as I've tried to explain it). Or just seeing people spout about how there's absolutely nothing wrong with the sg or the game at all can hit a nerve. I admit 2.42 on the surface looks like a better step in the right direction than anything else in 2.x.

[squeek.]

The new push values making a HW unable to move towards an SG at all doesn't give you an idea of its stopping power? Keep in mind, the HW is only 10 units slower than a soldier (soli is 240, HW is 230).

[FreaK367]

chilledsanity

If push was to have a large effect on scouts, most other classes would be flying away from the push power because they are slower.

Even with the current 2.41 version, if you try to run towards an SG, you feel the push back and you die fairly quickly... you're making it sound like the SG is currently worthless... when it is an automated turret that as far as I know, has more DPS than any weapon in the game. An SG needs to have Player defense alongside it, it's designed to help the defense, not BE the defense...

Originally Posted by squeek.

The new push values making a HW unable to move towards an SG at all doesn't give you an idea of its stopping power? Keep in mind, the HW is only 10 units slower than a soldier (soli is 240, HW is 230).

Squeek said what I was thinking. With a HW unable to run towards an SG in 2.42, compared to the current push power, it seems to be a reasonable increase, it will have a noticeable effect on all classes, and just because really good scouts can still cap (which will be the case as it is now), doesn't mean the SG is terrible.

I and others when in our element as a Scout have managed to enter a base get the flag and get out alive when the enemy team has had 2+ Engineers 2+ SG's, Soldier(s), Demo(s) and HW(s) all defending.. because we know how to use concs, good bhopping, good trimping, good air control and move in unpredictable ways. And the case is the same for AvD, no matter what the defense is, if you are up against a top scout or medic even, how can you expect a turret to do what a team of players cannot? Considering your entire team is defending the same objective... it shouldn't be left in the hands of the SG.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by squeek

The new push values making a HW unable to move towards an SG at all doesn't give you an idea of its stopping power? Keep in mind, the HW is only 10 units slower than a soldier (soli is 240, HW is 230).

My memory's a little fuzzy for TFC, but under normal circumstances, I remember the sg being able to stop basically any class carrying the flag and charging straight at it. Maybe the level you're talking about is enough, I'll have to see.

Originally Posted by Freak367

If push was to have a large effect on scouts, most other classes would be flying away from the push power because they are slower.

In both TFC and old FF, push could send the players backwards depending on the circumstances. That's the whole point, it's supposed to stop progress towards a specific point.

Originally Posted by Freak367

Even with the current 2.41 version, if you try to run towards an SG, you feel the push back and you die fairly quickly... you're making it sound like the SG is currently worthless... when it is an automated turret that as far as I know, has more DPS than any weapon in the game. An SG needs to have Player defense alongside it, it's designed to help the defense, not BE the defense...

I've explained this before, but not as thoroughly in this thread. Worthless is a strong word. It's not WORTHLESS, but it doesn't do its job effectively for AvD either. Yes, you die quickly, but if it's not enough to keep you pushed away from the goal while carrying the flag, it moves farther forward every time, and AvD and I/D games are over MUCH sooner. Many people constantly misunderstand what I'm saying to mean that the sg should be the entire defence. No, of course not, that's retarded. What I'm saying is that based on the culmination of hundreds of pub AvD and I/D games I've played, without a strong sentry push, the game buckles. AvD games are over in 10 minutes instead of 20. I/D rounds are over in 3-5 minutes. With the new O abilities from 2.0 combined with the lack of sg push, AvD (except basicbowl) has become so slanted towards O, I would bet $100 on me being able to win as offense on almost any pub random team. I enjoy close games, and I haven't really seen those in AvD and I/D since 1.x.

Originally Posted by Freak367

I and others when in our element as a Scout have managed to enter a base get the flag and get out alive when the enemy team has had 2+ Engineers 2+ SG's, Soldier(s), Demo(s) and HW(s) all defending.. because we know how to use concs, good bhopping, good trimping, good air control and move in unpredictable ways. And the case is the same for AvD, no matter what the defense is, if you are up against a top scout or medic even, how can you expect a turret to do what a team of players cannot? Considering your entire team is defending the same objective... it shouldn't be left in the hands of the SG.

(Elmo, statements like this are why I feel like I have to keep explaining, sorry).

Okay, there's a couple fundamental misunderstandings here:

1. I am not saying the sg should stop an extremely skilled scout. I thought I already said this above. If you can use air control to come in fast and evade its detection, good for you, you earned it. It should be difficult, but not impossible. However, hopping in a straight line along the main path is NOT a display of extreme skill or luck.

2. What works in CTF does not work in AvD. You're talking about scouts and medics. In most of the AvD games I've played, they're useful for getting the flag out of the gates, but usually aren't the people who end up capping, they die too fast and their movement control is often inferior to other classes since most of the time you don't have concs. In AvD, you have to change classes based on the situation, but I'd say soldiers, demomen, pyros, and spies end up winning the most games on AvD. Now take that as your average attacker and imagine him coming in as fast as scouts and medics do in CTF (since the distance to the goal is usually much shorter in AvD and I/D). I still haven't seen much of a counter to an all-solly offense with a scout ferrying them along with jumppads. The point is, on average your offense is MUCH stronger than what you should expect from a CTF game. Also what score do you usually play to on CTF? All it takes is one person with the flag getting to the goal and the cap is over. They don't have to run it back out. Once that happens 3 times, the game is over. There's a lot less margin for error. How would CTF play if the game was OVER after 3 caps?

Also, believe it or not, I'm in agreement with your last statement, the entire defense should NOT be left in the hands of the sg. What I'm saying is TFC AvD was designed to have a strong sg and depended on it. FF was based off of that and has never come up with a substitute for the function that the old sg provided. Once again, I'm not advocating the sg is the entire defense, people always seem to jump to that conclusion, I have no fucking idea why. Actually, right now, in its current state, I think you could argue that all of defense for AvD now lies in the hands of demomen. Pipe traps are extremely important to a good defense. The problem is when they went down in the past, you still had sg's to fallback on that could keep O pushed back. They were the last line of defense. Nowadays, when pipe traps go, the sg isn't powerful enough to keep cappers pushed back, so now demomen are the last line of defense, with sgs mitigated more to the role of just softening people up before they move the flag forward, not preventing it. It's not that their role has changed, it's that they've lost their backup and D has been weaker this whole time as a result. I'm hoping 2.42 will change this.

[Elmo]

Sorry, perhaps that was a little *insert word I can't find* of me.

Just I've read soooo many discussions on the matter and specifically many involving your arguments on the matter. I would say, see how you feel about the 2.42 values when it comes out. See if it's enough for you to accept. If not, then by all means continue.

At the moment, all that seems to occur are arguments over what you mean and what people think you mean. I do get the feeling you want the SG to do a more than we'll ever allow - but at the end of the day I can only guess as to whether that's true and the only way we'll know is by changing stuff and you telling us as we change it.

I have felt the overall defence has lacked a degree pwnability. But with the SG being the designated 'cleaner' this could have emphasised the SG's (lack of) ability to stop people. Something I think squeek suggested previously.

I hope the HW and Soldier changes will have a positive effect on the whole defence. I like that there's real depth to the new things we've introduced. We don't know how they'll have an effect in the long term and on pub servers. But if it's not enough then we'll just revisit verious defensive values and give them a tweak, which I hope will also have an affect the perception of the SG's capabilities too.

But we're not gonna'know anything until 2.42 gets played on publics for a few weeks.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Elmo

I hope the HW and Soldier changes will have a positive effect on the whole defence. I like that there's real depth to the new things we've introduced.

I don't think the soldier changes will impact much for D on AvD, but I also think that the new grenade is an improvement that makes the game a little more fun. The changes for hwguy are potentially huge however and could really save things, it just depends on how they're implemented. I'll ask about that in the 2.42 thread.

[Raynian]

edit: Oh look, I was talking about defense and it turned into a rant on the state of the game as a whole. oh well, this thread was derailed enough anyways.

I wouldn't mind an overall stronger SG.

I wouldn't mind an overall stronger defense as a whole.

The trade off must be that it feels worthwhile to kill the defense, by making it take longer for them to get into position and set up when they are killed.

I hate that when a match starts, both teams are in the flag room and in position within 15 seconds, tops. That's right, both teams. Offense is so fast and so...grindy.

Spawn. Prime conc, run towards door to yard. HH conc, immediately prime another conc, run into base, use second conc to jump into flag room. Maybe delay the second conc a few seconds. But it's the same action repeated 40 to 50 times in fifteen minutes. It just feels like there's no fun in it, it's just constantly slamming into the defenders until they slip up and let a cap through. When you die 3 or more times a minute...bleh. No single death (or single kill, for defenders) seems important. Even moves which would leave everyone going "holy shit, that play was so baller" in TFC just seem boring in comparison in FF, because there is so much shit going on constantly that nothing stands out.

And every map plays the same way.

Monkey - spawn, prime conc, conc yard, JP into FR, conc into flag, die, repeat
SD2 - spawn, prime conc, conc yard, JP into FR, conc into flag, die, repeat
Destroy - spawn, prime conc, conc yard, JP into FR, conc into flag, die, repeat
Siden - spawn, prime conc, conc yard, JP into FR, conc into flag, die, repeat
Morality - spawn, prime conc, conc yard, JP (or rampslide!) in FR, conc into flag, die, repeat

Every fucking map plays the same way on offense. Because unlike in TFC, you don't have to worry about playing the map - you just play the class. Which is to say, you slam your face on the conc button and pray you get enough speed and that the enemy demo doesn't hit the next det - one of some 120 to 150 det attempts he'll be making throughout the match. Is it the pickup community's fault for that? Maybe. Hell, it definitely partially is. But it's also because the best way to beat any kind of defense is just to zerg rush them over and over and over, getting as many runs in as possible, maybe stopping to kill the engi/demo, but mostly just praying you can get a flag touch each run. It's why I'm starting to get jaded with FF's gameplay. It's stale after playing a few hundred games, since every single one is repeating the same action every 20 seconds for 15 minutes.

At least playing defense is somewhat interesting.

Just kidding, it's aggravating as hell to wipe all 4 offense, but knowing they'll be back in your flag room in the time it takes to hit 2 concs (read: 10 to 15 seconds).

The game is too fast, both on offense and defense. Nothing feels worthwhile.

[KubeDawg]

Originally Posted by Elmo

Just I've read soooo many discussions on the matter and specifically many involving your arguments on the matter. I would say, see how you feel about the 2.42 values when it comes out. See if it's enough for you to accept. If not, then by all means continue.

Elmo, the SG has had problems since 1.0 was released. Most patches the SG has been stronger or weaker than what the community wants. The problem with waiting for 2.42 to be released is having to wait another 1-2 years before another patch is released. The only way your argument would work well is if FF were on Steamworks. That would make things so much better for the community and devs. I hope something is in the works for Steamworks in the near future.

With that said, the values have already likely been tested a lot since the latest FF version was released, so it may be a near perfect SG.

[episkopos]

How about for AvD, defense engineers, instead of building the current SG, build a "Defense Turret" which looks very different and has approximately the same stats as the FF 1.11 SG?

I know the idea of changing the SG's behaviour across gamemodes has been objected to in the past on the grounds of providing a consistent experience, but if it looks totally different and you include highly visible, concise information saying how it's different, there should be no problem. Besides, that small issue would be outweighed by the fact that AvD would become considerably more fun, and whether you like it or not, an awful lot of pub games are AvD. If people have fun, they are more likely to continue playing.

I think this would be the ideal solution, as it removes the oft-repeated issue that balancing the SG for one gamemode will unbalance it for another.

[Crazycarl]

episkopos: I'd much rather just change the maps. But then, I am a mapper.

Raynian: I agree completely but I think the problem is that the maps you are talking about are designed for that type of play. You could put in more chokepoints, respawn delays, objectives that take longer to do than touching a point, and slow down the game that way, but would people play it (no)?

KubeDawg: From what I hear, Steamworks is based entirely on whether the Valve guys are interested, and they aren't interested. The difficulty in patching isn't really getting the pathes out(though that does take time), it's feature creep and dev inactivity. We could use Desura for automatic patching, and might look into that. We could make the SVN public and have instant updates, but most of the time the beta is not ready for the public, as I'm sure you've seen.

[chilledsanity]

Raynian: It sounds like you're facing almost the exact same problems as I am with AvD, just with different consequences. I mean look at the things we both want:

-caps not to be retardedly fast
-defense to get a boost so that it can really shrug off attacks that aren't thought out so they feel less overwhelmed
-killing defense to feel like a real accomplishment instead of just mundane
-eliminate the die, repeat, die, repeat cycle by making it less effective (and for CTF and I/D not make the game feel grindy)
-have an environment that makes skillful moves actually something impressive. (In CTF clever moves would mean a lot more when it's not #28 out of 40, in AvD, the skillful moves could be what turn the tide of the entire game)

Originally Posted by episkopos

I know the idea of changing the SG's behaviour across gamemodes has been objected to in the past on the grounds of providing a consistent experience, but if it looks totally different and you include highly visible, concise information saying how it's different, there should be no problem. Besides, that small issue would be outweighed by the fact that AvD would become considerably more fun, and whether you like it or not, an awful lot of pub games are AvD. If people have fun, they are more likely to continue playing.

It's probably been brought up 2-3 times a year ever since the mod came out. I certainly like it as it would solve a bunch of problems and would be win-win for basically everyone. Especially since I think the "consistent experience" is kind of bullshit since hunted, waterpolo, murderball, push, etc. all create different expectations about the classes anyway.