Take out sniper class

[Crazycarl]

Now that the discussion is not about the sniper, but is instead about who said what in regards to strawmen created to expose logical fallacies about claims about who is the better player and thus more qualified to discuss game design decisions, I'm moving this to D&A.

[Etzell]

Originally Posted by Bridget

He said that even if the only thing he was capable of was adding to pickups, then that would still be one thing he could do over me. If he can only do one thing, and that one thing is more than I can do, then he is essentially claiming that I can do nothing at all.

Well... You can't play the game... so you can't do anything at all.

Also:

Originally Posted by Bridget

Also, what if the reasons I don't play, hardware problems aside, happen to be because of evaluations of the game? Didn't you think of that? No, you didn't, because you're intellectually bankrupt. All of this "You don't play the game." bullshit is nothing but red-herring ad-hominem. Attack my character instead of my points, make any excuses necessary to ignore them or devalue them.

That's quite the paragraph, chief.

[Innoc]

Originally Posted by Iggy

Are you saying you can't learn coding? If you put as much effort into learning that as you do bitching, you'd have the problems solved already.

Not everyone can. After seeing what some of the "experienced programmers" I work with produce I understand why they have not advanced in 6 years... There really is a gift to create solid code.

[Dexter]

hey man, solid code optional. as long as it doesn't crash servers no one will notice right?

[Innoc]

Originally Posted by Dexter

hey man, solid code optional. as long as it doesn't crash servers no one will notice right?

riiiight....

[WiFiDi]

Originally Posted by Innoc

riiiight....

actually you'll notice the people making the game when you try to update it somthing will break why because you took the easy way out.

[Dexter]

Originally Posted by WiFiDi

actually you'll notice the people making the game when you try to update it somthing will break why because you took the easy way out.

oh ok good point

[Majesty]

My first reaction to removing the sniper was "WOW I have to read this!" There are some good sounding points (almost) everyone made. I've provided the first eight levels as screenshots of the center area:

You're all familiar with these levels I assume. But here is the key reason why this issue keeps coming up: The level. Almost always, mappers feel they must cater to the sniper in an extreme way, or else they'll be yelled at. I believe the reason for this is due to the omni-present map 2fort. Damn you 2fort. As you can see in all of these levels (except anti-citizen) there is an extremely imbalanced scenario. If you do not have conc grenades and you are not a sniper, and you do not have a counter sniper on your team, then good luck getting through these areas. Can it be done? I'm a firm believer that nothing is impossible. But the odds are stacked against you. Check out anticitizen. What a sexy looking map. It does well to break up the vision. It provides bunker areas so less range-proficient classes can blitz snipers. It does many things correctly.

The sniper should not be removed or altered heavily. There is no point to play as a sniper who can not zoom. The whole reason to play as a sniper is the gratification of taking out the enemy from long distances. The feeling of "They can't even touch me." I also really liked the post about how the sniper takes much skill to learn and the benefits pay off extremely well when you learn him. I am also a fan of blocking caps last second, to buy time for the cap race. I've done this many times in TFC and it's a great feeling. Also, I play many classes: Soldier, Sniper, Pyro, Spy. Soldier is my favorite because he is the most balanced and well rounded class.

Bridget, I know that I am the new face around here, but it seems you are the type of guy that is very passionate about what he talks about. Obviously you care about FF, otherwise you'd spend your time elsewhere. However, there is a fine line between being passionate about something and coming off simply as hot-headed. One is admirable, the other is an ugly trait. I know this from my own experiences because I'm the same way. I found myself liking your views and agreeing with your opinions, then shaking my head when you blew your top.

My final point stands as this: it aint the class, it's the levels. Don't hate the player, hate the game, so to speak. I also think that FF is flooded with too many maps for such a small community, but that is another point I'll make some other time.

[Bridget]

Blaming the maps instead of the Sniper is both a red-herring argument and a case of attacking a symptom of the problem instead of the actual problem. These maps are absolutely fine when the other classes are playing on them. Sure, these maps enable the Sniper to be every more of a nuisance, but the problem is still the Sniper.

An analogous and overtly absurd example would be like blaming a company that markets clocks for an incident where someone throws a clock at someone else hard enough to provoke a concussion. Sure, the clock enables or helps that person to cause harm, but that was never the clock's intended purpose. The clock being used as a weapon is merely a symptom of the real problem, that the assailant perhaps has some sort of mental instability.

The sniper should not be removed or altered heavily. There is no point to play as a sniper who can not zoom. The whole reason to play as a sniper is the gratification of taking out the enemy from long distances. The feeling of "They can't even touch me."

This seems to be the argument people fall back on all the time. Some people derive a pleasure out of playing the class. Well, as much of an asshole as it makes me seem, I really don't give a shit. I want an objectively balanced game, where the mechanics live or die based on how fair they are and how fun they are both for those using the mechanics and those having the mechanics used against them. That "they can't even touch me" thought happens to be the sole reason why the class is broken.

[Crazycarl]

The point of having a space between bases is to give fast classes more of a chance to succeed on offense, and give defense a reprieve between waves of attackers. If that space wasn't there, you'd have two teams lining up to spam each other's spawn rooms.

The sniper in this scenario intensifies this effect, since they thin out the offense, especially the slow, powerful classes.

It's a shame, though, that CTF mappers can't think of anything more original than a big open space, two doors pointed directly at each other, some balconies, and some water with a bridge over it. Forcing both teams to run through a single open space is a problem even without snipers, because it causes aimless mid-map fighting. What if there were five equally quick, discrete paths to the enemy base? Your chance of encountering anyone, including a sniper, would be 80% less.

I'm sorry, Majesty, but while sitting back plinking heads from afar is fun, your enemies are having considerably less fun trying to deal with you. One of our design philosophies is that when players die, they must feel like there was something they could have done to avoid it. With snipers, that's often not the case.

[Majesty]

No, of course not. Getting killed off by a sniper isn't much fun at all. I find it *very* fun ambushing the snipers though. The panicked expression as they switch to their automatic is priceless.

One of our design philosophies is that when players die, they must feel like there was something they could have done to avoid it.

That's a great quote. And as you said, not really the case with the sniper class. I think it's somewhat ignoring the fact that there are ways to expose sniper fire. A quick strafe past(or strafe-cancel-return from) a doorway can do this. Thinking about it now, is there a high velocity sound effect for the bullet? This might help a lot. This obviously doesn't fix the poor design of maps with wide open areas. Take 2fort for example. I hate to use TF2 as an example, but the way they fixed the open space is by putting a nice sized roof over the bridge. It's still possible to hit a target underneath, but shuts down many angles of the shot.

[Etzell]

Originally Posted by Bridget

An analogous and overtly absurd example would be like blaming a company that markets clocks for an incident where someone throws a clock at someone else hard enough to provoke a concussion. Sure, the clock enables or helps that person to cause harm, but that was never the clock's intended purpose. The clock being used as a weapon is merely a symptom of the real problem, that the assailant perhaps has some sort of mental instability.

If you don't think maps like 2fort were designed with sniper battles in mind, I think you've lost all credibility.

[Bridget]

That's a great quote. And as you said, not really the case with the sniper class. I think it's somewhat ignoring the fact that there are ways to expose sniper fire.

Argument has been made a billion times before. There's nothing you can do to counter the Sniper at range. Taking an alternate route and having to do some elaborate movement scheme are all instances of the Sniper countering you, not you countering the Sniper. Knowing where the Sniper is might increase your chances of getting past him, as would taking a different route or even doing some elaborate conc-jump, but it doesn't increase your ability to fight back.

[Majesty]

Originally Posted by Bridget

Argument has been made a billion times before. There's nothing you can do to counter the Sniper at range. Taking an alternate route and having to do some elaborate movement scheme are all instances of the Sniper countering you, not you countering the Sniper.

This just isn't true. Getting inside the appropriate distance to maximize your chances of winning is in all great games. Also, the tone of your 2nd last post felt as if the level does not matter. The level always matters. The classes and the level walk hand-in-hand into the sunset together. You can't have one without the other.

Knowing where the Sniper is might increase your chances of getting past him, as would taking a different route or even doing some elaborate conc-jump, but it doesn't increase your ability to fight back.

Of course it does. Eluding a sniper and blitzing the sniper from an alternate route does, in fact, help your chances to fight back. But, again, on maps with huge wide open areas, it just isn't going to happen.


I did play as sniper last night. And I do agree that some changes should probably be made. Minor changes, though. Nothing drastic like removing the poor guy or changing his name to sharpshooter. Maybe delay between shots. I'll keep thinking about it.

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by Majesty

Getting inside the appropriate distance to maximize your chances of winning is in all great games.

There's nothing you can do to counter the Sniper at range.

Originally Posted by Majesty

Of course it does. Eluding a sniper and blitzing the sniper from an alternate route does, in fact, help your chances to fight back. But, again, on maps with huge wide open areas, it just isn't going to happen.

It helps your chances to fight back when and if you actually get close enough to be effective, but the mere knowledge of where the Sniper is at range does nothing to help you fight back at that moment. Fighting back is not getting countered, having to take a different route, having to hide behind cover, having to sacrifice health to cover huge distance, or doing some elaborate dance. Fighting back is about dealing damage, and doing so at your maximum potential. If I run into a Heavy as a Scout, sure I'm a goner, but that doesn't change the fact that I had the potential, as the Scout, at close range, to deal my best damage. Long range versus long range? My potential isn't there, but the Sniper's sure as hell is.

Originally Posted by Majesty

I did play as sniper last night. And I do agree that some changes should probably be made. Minor changes, though. Nothing drastic like removing the poor guy or changing his name to sharpshooter. Maybe delay between shots. I'll keep thinking about it.

That doesn't fix the problem at all. Sniper still retains an infinite range of interaction. If someone wearing a top-hat, monocle, and fine tuxedo came in to your room and punched you in the dick every five minutes while he puffed at his cigar, you would tell him to stop if you truly did not like being punched in the dick by a man of his character, not request that he delay his repeated arrivals by five more minutes. See, this is elementary logic! Sniper is the monocle-man punching me in the dick every time I play Fortress Forever.

[Iggy]

That doesn't wash, and you know it. If someone walked up to you and punched you in the nuts, and you don't either beat him to the punch, or just let it happen, then you deserve to be punched in the nuts.
If he comes in looking for you, and you are waiting behind the door, you can smash a lamp over his head and be done with it.
Those of us in the real world call that "strategy".

[Bridget]

• Misunderstand non-serious analogy.
• Make your own non-serious analogy.
• Strawman.

[moosh]

Originally Posted by Bridget

Sniper is the monocle-man punching me in the dick every time I play Fortress Forever.

[battery]

What? You meant to tell me that when you get fragged by a sniper you don't eel like there was something you could have done to avoid it? What about those medics on your team? Medic pwns snipers at close-quarter combat, no? Have one medic sit around the snipers' nest and voila! No more sniper problem. By forgoing one offensive medic, your team gets a reward of being able to position soldiers and HW's inside enemy base. I'd make this kind of trade any day.
________
Creampie Ebony

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by battery

What about those medics on your team? Medic pwns snipers at close-quarter combat, no?

No shit, at close quarters combat. My fuss is about being picked off at long range, where every other class is at a massive disadvantage due to the impracticality of their weapons, as they are limited to close/medium range only. With his weapon being hitscan, it comes down mostly to his performance over your own when determining if you survive or live.

Originally Posted by battery

Have one medic sit around the snipers' nest and voila! No more sniper problem.

It's traded off for another problem: One class is such an annoyance that someone has to sacrifice his or her fun to prevent the Sniper class from ruining the fucking game. As much as you consider camping battlements a counter to the Sniper, it does nothing but subtract from the game. There's one less person playing the game semi-correctly. And, it just encourages the Sniper to cry until the admins do something. I've been banned a few times for doing this in multiple games, suppressing the Sniper so my team could past, as if Snipers are immune to being influenced.