Snipers! They don't belong.

[GenghisTron]

Well, there's a pretty consistent pattern here. All the people who play sniper regularly tend to agree that sniper isn't overpowered, and then everyone else who doesn't play sniper regularly (From pubbers to competitive level players) all see them as a problem. I also spend most of my time in FF playing on the Talos server, and people routinely complain about snipers and pyros the most. It's pretty safe to say the population of FF has decided.

Also, Cujo, wasn't that you the other day in the TALOS server that left when people were bitching about you sniping? Remember we were on ff_runoff, and you spoiled the game for a few people, the map changed to ff_destroy, and you sniped on the big ramp to the red flagroom. People bitched again, and asked if you could play another class, and you just left the game.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by SSCUJO

has anyone tried letting the population of FF decide?

next patch make the sniper defualt disabled, let the servers enable the sniper if they want. you will see some servers with and some without snipers, see which are more populated over a 1 or 2 month period. this will tell you if the community wants/needs the sniper or if they would just as easily play in a server without one.

I follow your logic, but I don't think that's a good idea. People will join whatever server has people and/or if they're playing a map they like. Often you only have about 2 servers going on at one time, with one of them full. So it could very well come down to the decision of play a server with the selected sniper mode or don't play at all. That and there's the risk of all the popular servers picking the same option.

[blackout]

Well, there's a pretty consistent pattern here. All the people who play sniper regularly tend to agree that sniper isn't overpowered, and then everyone else who doesn't play sniper regularly (From pubbers to competitive level players) all see them as a problem.

You discover this on page 20? :P

This is ridiculous how many pages have accumulated, obviously no quick decision can be made if people feel so strongly either way about the class. Now I haven't read every single page, but I've certainly been reading since page 10 or 12 and i don't quite recall this being said yet, but again so many pages flow together so forgive me if it's a re-itteration. If it really comes down to it, I guess I can understand making the sniper map dependant. Now I don't wish for this to happen, but perhaps it'll please some of those against the sniper.

A map i could understand the sniper being turned off on perhaps would be medevil with that spawn door being invisible (On a side note i don't quite understand all the invisble spawns, why not use doors, but i digress!). I can understand alot of people would want aardvark as well, which i would say offence should still have no problem concing away, especially with i'm sure a large part of the community being TF veterans. The point is we should at least be looking for a middle ground. Green Mushy and Bridget, I understand your dislike of the class but your arguements are just ridiculous attacks. You rip apart any logical complaints with your posts, stop taking everything as a personal attack or accusing others of not getting this stupid fruit theory over and over and over. You've been using it for the past 15 pages...

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by blackout

You rip apart any logical complaints with your posts, stop taking everything as a personal attack or accusing others of not getting this stupid fruit theory over and over and over. You've been using it for the past 15 pages...

Bridget's post that first introduced the fruit analogy was three pages ago.

[blackout]

Bridget's post that first introduced the fruit analogy was three pages ago.

Hah alright I got a little carried away with that one example, you're most certainly correct squeek. But my point is go back 10 pages and the same cyclical arguements, and personal attacks about how so and so "doesn't understand/read my post!" are being used over and again. I think you understood what I meant even if I did goof it up with that error :P

And that's just not helping anything.

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by blackout

about how so and so "doesn't understand/read my post!

Originally Posted by Bridget

TheKing has been arguing against his own straw-man arguments. We say "The Sniper is a problem because he is unique." but we don't stop there. We present arguments that show how, in its case, being unique is a problem. TheKing doesn't get to that point. All he sees is "problem because he is unique" and illogically concludes that any class that is unique is flawed or broken or what have you by default. . .

[blackout]

Thanks for reiterating my point bridget

[Bridget]

I am made of swiss cheese.

[chilledsanity]

blackout: I suggested a middle ground of having a laser rifle with growing damage that you had to keep painted on your target with no charge for firing tag shots. Bridget wasn't against it in concept, I don't believe anyone said anything else.

[Mikael_hs]

I believe the fact that no one adressed my superawesome arguments is because they are so great. Just like me, just like the sniper is not.

Whatever replaces the sniper, it is important that it has a major function in "fun pubgaming", in fact moreso than in competitive play (which does fine already without the sniper entirely). It just shouldn't be at odds with the rest of the game

and It's not just aardvaark; the same goes for many in fact most CTF maps, like 2fort. I should be able to kill most people on a pubgame (if I have full health) but even if I conc (or grenjump as sol) to the sniper with a gren primed and perfect concaim, that bastard just runs into the resup until his friend hwguy comes out to play.

regarding the pyro: pyro can be annoying sometimes, but the annoyance there is much less and is easily overcome in the light of the fact that ff needs classes that are "easy" to start with. Sure, pyro is probably not as fun an opponent as say a soldier or medic or scout (cause you might die from flamedmg even if he lies slain by your feet), and it is rarely used in clangaming, but it is not at odds with it, and it is a good introduction to the game (flamejump or whatever its called = airdynamics; also the pyro benefits from bhoping).

I think we can stop with the whole misfired reductios. Regardless if u want to call sniper a potato or not, it is a class that most people dislike (if they don't play it themselves, which is not an argument unless you add that MOST or even very many FFers are contained within that group, which is obviously not the case).

And the point is not that the game is necessarily better without sniper per se, but rather with whatever replacement the sniper can get (and yes the same point could in principle be made about any class, but not in practice because a game is after all only a collection of structures amongst its elements; so to argue for elimination for any class it is not enough by itself to claim that there could be something better, but rather the conjunction of that and that it is seriously deficient as is, is needed).

[GenghisTron]

Originally Posted by blackout

You discover this on page 20? :P

I realized it very early on in the thread, I was just rebutting CUJO's post, which was right above mine, where he asked 'how about we let the community decide'.

[Eon Seig]

I have played Sniper. I have done fairly well at it. And I have to say that I hate the class in its entirety. Playing as a Sniper feels wrong, non-challenging, and boring. You "feel" overpowered in nearly all situations. I actually got angry a few times that sniping feels so risk-free.

I also hate getting killed by Snipers because I don't feel as though they actually beat me. They place themselves in absolutely no risk whatsoever to get a high k/d ratio with absolutely no challenge. I despise getting bodyshot instantly as a Pyro with full HP and armor the moment I get out of respawn, over and over and over.

But I digress. Sniping, by its nature, is not fun nor is it "supposed" to provide fair chances to the enemy. Sniping in real life and in other games is there to take control of the battle. Snipers are professionals who's job description is to kill with minimal risk and highest reward. This is why they do not fit in this game. It's because they don't fit into real life combat, either. That is why Snipers are used. We are trying to make a fun game, not replicate real life.

I would like to point out that Sniper is actually sorta fun and not nearly as rage-inducing in TF2. The only major complaint about them is bodyshots and the "Lucksman". There are probably some reasons for this, but for the life of me I can't find out why. Maybe its because the Sniper in TF2 actually has the capability to put himself into situations of risk which in turn provide potential for massive reward. The TF2 Sniper doesn't need to stand absolutely still for a full second just to shoot his rifle, therefore he can actually move into closer ranges and try to sharpshoot. Also, bodyshots are half as powerful and headshots are triple damage instead of double.

[Bridget]

That about sums it up. If you play Sniper, you either come to realize how absolutely broken and unfair the class is and how much of an unintentional asshole you have become or you delude yourself into thinking you're some uber-pro and become an arrogant snob like most of the Snipers I have ran into. They feel entitled to something. Why learn this game? I'll just shoot people across the map, kill them in one hit, and run into my spawn at the slightest hint of danger. The admins will back me up, that's spawn spam! Oh man, I am so good at this game. Pew pew.

EASY MODE ENGAGE.

[mervaka]

Originally Posted by Eon Seig

But I digress. Sniping, by its nature, is not fun nor is it "supposed" to provide fair chances to the enemy. Sniping in real life and in other games is there to take control of the battle. Snipers are professionals who's job description is to kill with minimal risk and highest reward. This is why they do not fit in this game. It's because they don't fit into real life combat, either. That is why Snipers are used. We are trying to make a fun game, not replicate real life..

win.

this is why a compromise cannot be scored. snipers are as a result inherently black and white. they'll either rape, or get raped. there is no middle ground.

[GenghisTron]

Originally Posted by Bridget

That about sums it up. If you play Sniper, you either come to realize how absolutely broken and unfair the class is and how much of an unintentional asshole you have become or you delude yourself into thinking you're some uber-pro and become an arrogant snob like most of the Snipers I have ran into. They feel entitled to something. Why learn this game? I'll just shoot people across the map, kill them in one hit, and run into my spawn at the slightest hint of danger. The admins will back me up, that's spawn spam! Oh man, I am so good at this game. Pew pew.

EASY MODE ENGAGE.

LMFAO!

Yea, last night someone in TALOS was complaining that a demoman was 'spawn camping him'. Turns out the person complaining was a sniper, and the demoman was seeking retribution. Oh, and in a bizarre twist of irony, the map was aardvark! Every other map he also suggested was a sniper-friendly map (From the chat log, he was in favor of anticitizen, aardvark, and hunted, all great sniper maps).

http://talos.hlstatsx.com/player_histories/chat/21

[VentuSag3]

If you play Sniper

By your own admission you have never actually played sniper to any serious degree. Any point you make on that note is going to be theorycraft garbage. Either play the game, or move over for someone who actually has ground to stand on. I'll believe its an overpowered class when it comes from the mouth of someone who plays the class at high level, or has played against the class at high level ( pubs =/= ) and has a record to prove they know what they are talking about.

The only thing you have stated in this entire thread that is correct is that snipers who snipe from their spawn and complain about spawn camping are failcows.

[Bridget]

I can inform you that falling into a pool of lava will kill you without having actually experienced that. It's called common sense and deductive reasoning. The Sniper is objectively broken, so when you contemplate your effect on the game, you can only conclude correctly that you're playing a class that only succeeds by playing in an unfair manner or wrongfully that you are, past the minimal skill ceiling, improving to become really amazingly awesome at the game.

There's that delusion of being really good when you play Sniper, but so far, I've yet to see a single person who plays Sniper actually fare well against and as any other class. I can only guess they failed hard at playing those classes and went to Sniper as the 'fallback' class. I don't see why anyone would want to sacrifice the usefulness and challenge of the other classes for the piece of shit Sniper. Really, it's there to appeal to people who need their hand held. I'd rather we just let those people go. If you want to play well in this game, earn it instead of being spoon-fed.

I've noticed that it is not that difficult to transition from any of the other nine classes to Sniper, because he is a direct upgrade over them. Give me a couple days and I'd be up to speed killing people left and right. However, transitioning from Sniper to any of the other classes is usually a bit of a challenge that just discourages the person from improving so they go back to ez-mode-engage Sniperlolz. If they stick with it, improvement and mastery don't come easy. Welcome to FF.

Don't you play both Spy and Sniper as your main classes?
The two most broken classes in Fortress Forever? Lol irl :3

[VentuSag3]

There are things you can and cant know without experience. Game balance is not one of them. What does and does not take skill isn't either.

Of course, all this is futile because the fact that Snipers are not overpowered has already been statistically proven. They are ineffective in High level play, clans laugh at them, they are outdone by Soldiers in pubs, etc. etc. The fact that the people who are saying the class is OP can't get it through their thick skulls that evidence contradicts them and they are thus wrong is amazing.

Seriously, I feel like I am debating a bunch of creationists here.

Creationist-> I believe X!
Scientist-> Evidence says Y.
Creationist-> Hurr durr I believe X because durf durp
Scientist-> Evidence still says Y.
Creationist-> *Psuedointellectual long winded pressupositional argument* X! X!
Scientist-> *checks evidence*. Nope, still Y.
Creationist-> durp
Creationist-> durp durp
Creationist-> I believe X!

There is no point to this anymore. It's clear to me that your so called intellectual honesty is nonexistent and no amount of pointing to the evidence will change anyone's opinion.

[Bridget]

I like the part where you say 'the evidence' without actually supplying it. DURP. Seriously, I feel like I'm debating a creationist here. Actually, no one is debating anymore. This is the 'wrap up party' with the free drinks in a bowl of ice and the few remaining slices of pizza. This thread ended a few pages ago, really. Besides, no matter how much we argue, it doesn't change the direction taken by the Dev team. Lol irl again.

[TheKing]

Originally Posted by Green Mushy

This is not a slippery slope. It is ridiculous to think that just because we remove sniper because it doesnt fit, that it will somehow follow the same exact pattern to any other class.

I realize that this game is never going to degrade to the point where there's only one class, but by taking out some of the classes' special abilities you are moving the classes closer together. I don't want a game where you just DM and mulch, I like the additional experiences. Several classes are not solider/scout types of classes and I like that about FF - you're talking about removing at least one (or two, since you think the spy is also a problem).

Originally Posted by Green Mushy

When a player plays a game, properties like: each class has health, each class has a weapon, each class can move, are all basic laws. We are saying that sniper breaks one of these basic laws. Sniper is breaking basic rules of what we believe Fortress Forever is.

You're comparing health, a weapon, and movement to a DM-only type of environment? That environment is a basic law of FF? That environment would be breaking the rules of what FF is, IMO.

Originally Posted by Green Mushy

I believe that diversity, and many different classes helps FF with the ability to be many different games inside one.

I too believe that diversity, and many different classes helps FF with the ability to be many different games inside one. I just don't want to limit that to particular 'fun' maps, I want it to be present everywhere.

Originally Posted by Green Mushy

If the removal of sniper from all gametypes unless explicitly enabled through lua is truly making you leave FF. Seriously?

I've played this game since the 90's. I'm not going to make some blanket statement and say that if you take out the sniper I'm never going to play again, but yes the amount of time that I do play will be reduced drastically. It's not that I'm boycotting it or something, but the game just wouldn't be as much fun for me.

Originally Posted by Green Mushy

I assess problems with the class. Other devs do as well. It has been given more then a fair trial. The class is going to change, either through removal from normal play, or drastic revision of the class. So there is no point in arguing to not change it. That ship has sailed. I am extremely confident this will be the only class that undergoes this change.

I have been incredibly impressed by this game since it came out and am a huge fan of the way it was developed. It's a shame that you and a handful of people have been given the ability to remove an integral part of TF for no reason other than it annoys you (with a front that you somehow decided that it doesn't fit). People get annoyed with at least half the classes in the game and bitch about the advantages of those classes (literally). Every class has an advantage in a particular situation.

Originally Posted by Bridget

People nitpick with the analogy because the definitions are relative to the context they're used in. A botanical fruit may be different than a culinary fruit and they may be all mistaken and used informally. People understand what I mean with that analogy, and they nitpick when they're too intellectually bankrupt to admit it sums up the situation.

I think I'm going above your head sometimes. Is English your first language, because you keep saying that I don't understand when I respond quite appropriately - I just disagree. I understand what you mean, my point was (and read real close now) that just because you call the sniper a potato among fruits doesn't mean that:
1) it's true, and
2) that not being a fruit makes it any more different from a fruit than any two different fruits

You're going to have to explain why it doesn't fit, you can't just call it different and reach the conclusion that it doesn't fit. C'mon Bridget, we've been covering this for pages now. Moving on..

Originally Posted by Bridget

TheKing has been arguing against his own straw-man arguments. We say "The Sniper is a problem because he is unique." but we don't stop there.

No, I draw valid comparisons between the sniper class and other classes that, by your arguments, should also be 'broken' (but are not).

Originally Posted by Bridget

We present arguments that show how, in its case, being unique is a problem

Please do - you haven't done so yet! But realize that if you give me an argument and that same argument can be made to apply to other classes that you don't consider broken, you can't call the sniper broken. You're just picking it out because it annoys you, not because you have any real reason that it doesn't 'fit'.

Originally Posted by Bridget

TheKing doesn't get to that point. All he sees is "problem because he is unique" and illogically concludes that any class that is unique is flawed or broken or what have you by default. Sorry, but all of your arguments have been fueled by your misunderstanding, King. Please argue within scope.

Bridget, I am arguing within scope. If there is anyone that isn't understanding something it's you.

Originally Posted by Bridget

Besides, what do you achieve by pointing out that other classes are broken? You seem to think that comparing two broken classes phases out the other. It just makes no logical sense. None whatsoever! If any other class is a problem, then we have one more problem, not one less. Let's argue about the Sniper. Take the other class discussions to a new thread without the sarcastic overtones and childish parody of the last one you made. (People took that thread with a grain of salt because of how you acted, not the argument, just so you know.)

Read the above to better understand the intent of me comparing the sniper to other classes. I don't believe that any class is broken, but by pointing out that your entire argument applies to other classes that you don't consider 'broken', you should conclude that either:
1) there is something that you have not been able to put into words that is somehow different about the sniper, or
2) the sniper does, in fact, 'fit'

Originally Posted by SSCUJO

has anyone tried letting the population of FF decide?

next patch make the sniper defualt disabled, let the servers enable the sniper if they want. you will see some servers with and some without snipers, see which are more populated over a 1 or 2 month period. this will tell you if the community wants/needs the sniper or if they would just as easily play in a server without one.

Notice the drop off when FF.SNT tried to disable the sniper completely. The entire server (which was perhaps THE most popular server in FF despite the ridiculous amount of admin abuse) died almost immediately and stayed that way for months (and still hasn't recovered). By the way, this forum is absolutely NOT a good representation of the entire FF community. There is a unique demographic that would come from the game, sign up on these forums, and remain relatively active.

Originally Posted by Eon Seig

But I digress. Sniping, by its nature, is not fun nor is it "supposed" to provide fair chances to the enemy. Sniping in real life and in other games is there to take control of the battle. Snipers are professionals who's job description is to kill with minimal risk and highest reward. This is why they do not fit in this game. It's because they don't fit into real life combat, either. That is why Snipers are used. We are trying to make a fun game, not replicate real life.

Remind me again where the spy is in real life combat. The medic? The engineer? None fit in 'real life combat'. (You see how I did that Bridget?)

Originally Posted by GenghisTron

LMFAO!

Yea, last night someone in TALOS was complaining that a demoman was 'spawn camping him'. Turns out the person complaining was a sniper, and the demoman was seeking retribution. Oh, and in a bizarre twist of irony, the map was aardvark! Every other map he also suggested was a sniper-friendly map (From the chat log, he was in favor of anticitizen, aardvark, and hunted, all great sniper maps).

http://talos.hlstatsx.com/player_histories/chat/21

This guy sounds like a noob, he's not representing the sniper class. I've never complained when anyone spams battlements on aardvark; if I'm killing you from somewhere then I can't get mad when you come after me.

Originally Posted by Bridget

There's that delusion of being really good when you play Sniper, but so far, I've yet to see a single person who plays Sniper actually fare well against and as any other class.

I'm a good engineer and an ok solider. My K/D (which is the only stat that puts different classes in perspective, but is certainly not any kind of definitive proof) is generally about a kill higher as an engy than a sniper.

Originally Posted by Bridget

I've noticed that it is not that difficult to transition from any of the other nine classes to Sniper, because he is a direct upgrade over them. Give me a couple days and I'd be up to speed killing people left and right.

I'll give you as long as you want - when you're ready I'll 1v1 you on a sniper map and we'll see how difficult the transition is. It's easy to be an OK sniper (there are other classes that are also easy to be OK at) but very difficult to become good.

Originally Posted by Bridget

The Sniper is objectively broken

If by objectively you mean in your opinion, then I can agree.

Originally Posted by Bridget

If they stick with it, improvement and mastery don't come easy.

Unless, of course, you change the game to make yourself better.