Cars and Society Changes

[Innoc]

Driving around today I was thinking about some of the possible paths that personal vehicles might take in the near future. We're seeing slow movement towards alternative power plants in vehicles but movement nonetheless. I can't help but wonder how much thought has been given to the logistics beyond merely making them usable? For example...take the electric car. Let's say the whole battery issue ends up being addressed but we're still dealing with absurdly long recharge times...far longer than the 5 minutes or so we see with petroleum based fuels at present. For a home owner this will be easy...we get home at night and plug it in and life is good. Has anyone given thought to how this plays out for the apartment dweller? Honestly, the electric car seems like a logical direction it just needs a few more technologies to mature a little and it will be far more present...

So, any thoughts on this logistical issue?

[zSilver_Fox]

Possible mass outlet areas for power, with companies selling plugin cords that have to be specially installed for $75 a cord, and four hours of labor for installation. And Autolite will come out with a cord with gold plated wire for faster charge speeds, and sell it at Wal-Mart for a fraction of the cost.

But to be serious, I think the amount of energy required to run these should be considered in relation to the amount of energy that will be taken from power plants. Right now conventional fossil fuels are the biggest things for energy there. Many people are opposed to nuclear fuel supplies, and wind turbines don't seem to be making as good of an advancement as they should be. A serious study with exact numbers and such would probably answer the question, but just like random explosives checks at airports, it may just be a feel good thing.

But in the end, nothing sucks more than 12 MPG in my Grand Marquis.

[gizmofo]

Apartments could then advertise "Free vehicle outlets with 5 year contract!" They could also just be tacked on to the electric bill.
As for energy sources, solar energy seems to be the most promising in the near future. If we can improve the solar cells to absorb more than the <20% they do, then we will have a vast amount of electricity at our disposal.

[Innoc]

Having been an apt dweller for a while in my distant past I think the single biggest problem is that nothing goes unmolested in an apartment car port. Between vandalism, theft of power, exposure to bad weather and the issue of having (possibly) high voltage so readily accessible and exposed to even the kids the frequently play there that's why I am seeing this as a problem.

SilverFox, your point on the amount of energy needed is well taken but it's exactly points like that which I think will be completely ignored in rolling out new technologies to the mainstream. Look at the impact on corn production that Ethanol has had.

[Ihmhi]

You know, Europe does things a bit differently in this respect.

They have much, much smaller cars that are intended for use around the city... how often do people in the city go elsewhere? And when they do, they often take public transportation to get there anyway.

I think we will see a shift from the all-purpose-go-anywhere car to shorter range vehicles with public transporation and specialized vehicles picking up the long range slack.

Something else that has to be considered: while ground transport can largely be electrified (cars, trains, buses), what about air transport? Getting a 4 seater car completely powered by electricity is nothing compared to a getting a 747 to run on one.

I believe Fuel Cells are the answer in this respect.

The major problem with fuel cells (hydrogen ones, specifically) is that power is required to make the cells, yes? Aside from our fuel infrastructure (gas stations and the like), we have the problem of our power infrastructure.

What we really need to see is rapidly increased adoption of nuclear power. It has certainly gotten much safer over the years.

We have had all of, what, two major accidents since nuclear power came around? Consider that there are hundreds of plants around the world. More people have died from coal mining (which is used, unsurprinsingly, for coal fired plants!) than nuclear power.

France largely runs on it and as a result they have the cleanest air of any industrialized nation in the world.

I mean, it is safe, it does not pollute the air, and we are not going to be running out of the fuel anytime soon. I just wish America would get to it already and start getting more of them built to handle the demand.

Edit: Did I mention that Uranium is a renewable resource that will last us many billion years?

[BinaryLife]

I'm a big support of nuclear power these days. It would only take a few more plants than already exists to become active in order to power the nation. It would be cheaper and cleaner than anything else we have right now.

With flying we still need some kind of jet propulsion. The planes don't stay in the air much after those engines just down. I can't really think of anything that will function with he same success as jet fuel right now. But switching to a cleaner jet fuel in combination with the rest of the worlds lack of fossil fuels would still have a good impact on the environment and continue to be cheaper.

I think as technology advances we're going to see ways other than jet travel anyway. They're already talking about new bridges, space elevators and the like. Any of these techs could be easily transformed to getting across the Atlantic or pacific.

[C-Aim]

Ihmhi beat me to it, but I think they need to start introducing 2 person cars in the US that they have in Europe already. They are half the length and get better mileage than the ginormous SUVs and full size cars we have now. This would be especially awesome in NYC where parking is atrocious. In a city like this, I rarely drive very far to go anywhere (the farthest I drive is to my friends house which is ~30 minute trip on a major boulevard). If I need to go into Manhattan I just take the train; much easier. The sad part is that people just don't give a rats ass, they feel the need to get the biggest, most expensive car they can (even if less than half can actually afford them).

For example, one of my friends leased an SUV that he couldn't afford, and wound up barely being able to afford gas and basically he was working so that he could afford to drive to work. So what was the first thing he did when he finally got out of the shitty lease? Bought a used SUV of course; and he still bitches about never having money for gas

I think hydrogen cars would be a better solution than electric for the mass public. Like TC said if you don't have an outlet (live in an apartment) then a solution is much harder. But hydrogen cars can be filled at pumping stations. We could have both so that people could choose though. Of course I'm sure it costs a lot of money to do this and since there is too much money in oil I'm sad to say that I don't think its going to happen in my lifetime and I'm only 22

[Innoc]

I do not see the smaller car thing catching on in the US. Look at the work that's already being done with the prototype fuel-cell SUV's by GM. That type of vehicle is popular for a reason and tech will continue to work around that.

Nuclear makes sense but you're still dealing with charging and powering electric vehicles. I still think the logistics of serving people in high density housing is where this breaks down and becomes problematic.

Hydrogen is problematic for many reasons. I think we'll see the EV come through much sooner than hydrogen...if ever. The low energy density, large size of the tanks needed for reasonable vehicle ranges and long refuel times make this impractical IMO.

Something I've been hoping would happen for a long time is the adoption of diesel engines in modern American passenger cars. People here seem to think the Prius is the supreme energy efficient vehicle, while there are many diesel vehicles that get similar or better gas milage but are glossed over simply because people think diesel is just dirty truck fuel. And with cleaner diesel fuel finally going to be available, diesel cars will be able to meet California emissions standards and be sold in all 50 states in the near future. And hell, if you can't find the fuel, just toss some vegetable oil in the thing, it'll run fine.

And Innoc, you were lucky to have a place to even park your car for your apartment. I toss mine on whatever street my parking permit will work for to keep from getting ticketed and hope no one sees anything worth smashing my window in for. The hazards of hooking up an electric car to an outlet curbside are just too great to overcome. And on the rare occasions I drive it to work it's not like I'd have anywhere to charge it there. I can't think of a good solution for city dwellers.

[Innoc]

Originally Posted by hatchman_sr

Something I've been hoping would happen for a long time is the adoption of diesel engines in modern American passenger cars. People here seem to think the Prius is the supreme energy efficient vehicle, while there are many diesel vehicles that get similar or better gas milage but are glossed over simply because people think diesel is just dirty truck fuel. And with cleaner diesel fuel finally going to be available, diesel cars will be able to meet California emissions standards and be sold in all 50 states in the near future. And hell, if you can't find the fuel, just toss some vegetable oil in the thing, it'll run fine.

And Innoc, you were lucky to have a place to even park your car for your apartment. I toss mine on whatever street my parking permit will work for to keep from getting ticketed and hope no one sees anything worth smashing my window in for. The hazards of hooking up an electric car to an outlet curbside are just too great to overcome. And on the rare occasions I drive it to work it's not like I'd have anywhere to charge it there. I can't think of a good solution for city dwellers.

Great points. They have some fantastic micro-diesels in Europe that can't be brought to the US until there are more changes in fuel formulation. However, it's still a petroleum dependant plant with a finite lifespan of available fuel. As we move more and more to bio-based diesels we're going to see a serious impact on the availability of certain foods.

The recharging issue with the EV would certainly change the face of how things are done and I don't see an easy way to address it.

[Ihmhi]

Innoc, one has to park their car SOMEWHERE, right?

Combine a power meter, card swiper, and a parking meter, and you have it.

Let us say you park downtown in the shopping district. You park your car. IR sensors on the meter detect that a car is parked in front of it. It greets you with a "hello" screen and a prompt to swipe your card.

You swipe a credit card, debit card, whatever - it checks it. It then opens a door to a power cord which will be intentionally very short - it could not ever go to another space. Hence you would have to park on the side where your power plug is.

You plug in your car, it does a quick check, and tells you the approximate charge time and the cost thereof (along with the rate). It simulataneously charges you for parking there.

If the plug is pulled for ANY reason, the meter's power is cut and charging stops, so no one could leech power off of you. You have 30 seconds to swipe your card again before a traffic center is alerted and a meter maid / police are dispatched.

If you park in a spot without swiping a card, again - after a couple minutes, traffic is alerted and a meter maid comes by.

I guess it could also be set up to accept quarters for those of us who do not use cash cards, but hey - one could probably get those temporary cash cards. Hell, Burger King has magnetic strip cards that can be recharged. Rechargable, anonymous cash cards would certainly be another interesting thing to see at your local newsstand.

Parking buildings can use a similar system, but you would be issued a swipe card relevant to your apartment and spot. You simply get a bill at the end of the month. If you mistakenly (or purposefully) park in someone else's spot, you get fined by the apartment complex (after one or two friendly warnings, just in case you made a mistake).

Home garages and stuff, well, you do not have to worry about card swipers and the like. Just plug it in and go.

I think it would take a second year Engineering student all of 15 minutes t design such a machine, and I am sure there is a student at M.I.T. who could code up the O.S. during his lunch hours over a week.

Please, for the benefit of the discussion, try to poke holes in my idea.

[Lost]

Frankly, until the entire country is hit in the pocketbook by the costs of fossil fuels, our current dependence on those fuels will never decrease. Just look at it, we don't change anything we don't have to unless it costs us money.

[Ginger Lord]

Tax the hell out of anything that gets less than 20mpg. Over here our farm 4x4's (Defenders/Land Cruisers) get that easy, the only thing that get less are sports cars and over sized SUV's and they obviously have the money so won't mind donating a couple extra grand to help reduce emissions in other areas.

Most of our hatchbacks in Europe get 30mpg minimum, my 1.2 16v Clio gets 34mpg when I absolutely drive the pants off it and will give me 55mpg when I take it and drive normally. The diesel versions of these types of cars typically return 50-70mpg.

A great way to curb America's petrol usage would be to make it the same price as we pay in the UK. Basically make it 2-5x more expensive, you'd stop using bigger unneeded cars pretty sharpish.

[zSilver_Fox]

What about people who have transmission problems and can't afford to pay $1.5k to get their overdrive gear fixed? Students who buy 30 year old grandma junkers that get 18 MPG because they can't afford one that gets much more? Women drivers?

I'm stuck driving in 3rd gear max in my Marquis, which gives me 12 MPG.

[Ihmhi]

You know what really helps curb consumption? TAX IT. Make gas cost $6.00 a gallon (in France, isn't it like $7?). People will REALLY start to think about driving then.

Granted the people with older cars and beaters will suffer, but it is a fair trade off in my book- some people suffer over their poor 18mpg cars, but more greedy idiots who unnecessarily drive10mpg behemoths will feel it (and they should).

[Innoc]

Find another thread to do your pointless jealous class-based bitching. Stay focused please.

Bad weather is one thing that makes public recharging stations troublesome. Electricity and water don't get along. You have the municipal liability and the increased carrying capacity in the power grid that isn't there now. These seem to me to be one of many things that the push for alternative propulsion systems have in the way.

[Ihmhi]

Oooh, yeah, there is a problem.

I got it. Giant roofs over entire cities. d:

[Innoc]

It seems to me that we're going to need to see a couple of major advancements in technology to make this viable. What seems troubling to me is that we haven't seen a single new idea in automobile power plants in a very long time. All we're seeing is remixes of old ideas. And each one of those remixes has serious issues that make it impractical for widespread deployment. With the advance of science over all of these years there's no genuinely new ideas?

[zSilver_Fox]

Originally Posted by Ihmhi

You know what really helps curb consumption? TAX IT. Make gas cost $6.00 a gallon (in France, isn't it like $7?). People will REALLY start to think about driving then.

Granted the people with older cars and beaters will suffer, but it is a fair trade off in my book- some people suffer over their poor 18mpg cars, but more greedy idiots who unnecessarily drive10mpg behemoths will feel it (and they should).

Yes, ignore the cost of living in those areas having a factor on it. IGNORE IT! IGNORE THE BALANCE OF OTHER TAXES!

What Innoc said.

[MyNameIsChuck]

Originally Posted by Ihmhi

You know what really helps curb consumption? TAX IT. Make gas cost $6.00 a gallon (in France, isn't it like $7?). People will REALLY start to think about driving then.

I came to the conclusion a long time ago, that talking about cutting consumption was worthless idea. People will not cut consumption until cutting consumption saves them money.

Have hope, eventually when the price of gasoline becomes greater than 5$ a gallon, there will be a huge push for eletric/hybrid cars. The biggest problem right now is that gasoline is too cheap from the point of view of society. The price of gasoline right now is too low, because the cost of using gasoline is very high in terms of pollution, and long term damage to the economy. Gasoline has a negative externality, because of pollution and other bad side effects.

If you don't already know about negative externalties associated with gasoline maybe you should read this:

http://econweb.tamu.edu/amayer/Eco323/gastax.htm

and probably this:

http://home.ubalt.edu/ntsbgerl/econ5...external22.htm