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Old 09-17-2013, 04:12 PM   #61
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re:

Just an opinion, After hanging around for 8 months, And playing FF, Im seeing really why its not growing. Remember this is just my opinion !!
If you want this game to grow, Spend more time showing people how good this game is, And less time showing them how good you are. After playing TFC from the beginning, I watched Egos run players, really really good players out of the game, Look whats left of TFC, Its truely a joke, Do you want FF to keep going in the same direction ? Don't get me wrong, You guys have done a great job promoting the game with streams, Utube vids ect ect. But when I see brand new players that are very Interested in playing FF in a competitive way come into the pickup channel, And are pretty much laughed at, put on the bench or pickups just fail totally. that's not promoting the game in a correct manner .Someone should have noticed these people were brand new to the game, And should have asked them to sit on the sidelines and spectate pickups before they were picked to play.This has happened atleast 3 times in the past 2 months . These people are the ones that are gonna bring their friends to the game when they find out how great it is. Just sayin ... Be more aware of new people . Don't taunt them with your Egotistical antics, Not saying all do this but the 1s that do know who Im talking about. Be more friendly . Get along for gods sake, And quit bitching ....
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Old 09-29-2013, 07:39 AM   #62
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i think it's going to be really difficult to find any new players for FF simply because:
1-most of tfc players that gave any shit about it have already tried it out
2-most of tf2 players that gave any shit about it will turn away because of servers that are dead almost all the time
3-any other players will most likely find it difficult to get into because they won't find anything familiar. i mean how many games have bhop or rocket jumping? unfortunately, not that many
one of the ways i think we can gain some popularity is convince this fine person to make a video about FF. he's popular in tf2 community and i think that asking him and/or his friends to make a video about it might help. at least it won't hurt
Not a good idea, look what he did with TFC:
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Old 01-01-2014, 01:04 AM   #63
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In Australia, we've seen a resurgence of interest in TFC in the last 6 months, with around 50ish players returning. Pretty much all these players are former TFC addicts. There has been a bit of discussion about whether the community would be interested in playing some FF as well and below is a link to some of the discussion:

http://ozfortress.com/showthread.php?t=60675

Some of the more common arguments against playing FF seem to be:

-Splitting the community between TFC and FF and concerns about losing numbers
-People seem to believe that the game is biased towards offence (compared to TFC)

Hopefully we'll be able to get an FF server up and running in Australia so people can at least play it and make an informed decision.
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Old 01-01-2014, 01:56 AM   #64
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Hey FLA thanks for coming over to say hi. It'd be awesome if you guys gave the game a shot.

The game is definitely more offence based than tfc. But that's not to say that a good D player couldn't handle themselves. And of course the game is still being worked on, so a little feedback and discussion could go a long way in making a better game for everyone.
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Old 04-28-2014, 09:34 PM   #65
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Problem is with kids theses days is taking time to train and get skill. A lot of people would rather tf2 because it's easy... Slower... enjoy the unlocks (especially hats).. Fortress forever stayed in the era of TFC ways. But you have to step up to the new age players. They always need more or be working for something.. It's hard to please everyone and there's so many games out there to compete with. If you want public games to be filled you'd have to design somekind of achievement and unlocking system. People to customize their guns and character models. If I could customize my spy to have "I live to knife squeek" that would be pro and I could tea bag afterwards hahahahha it's only out of love

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Old 05-02-2014, 04:01 AM   #66
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If I could customize my spy to have "I live to knife squeek" that would be pro and I could tea bag afterwards hahahahha it's only out of love
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Old 05-10-2014, 01:40 AM   #67
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Hef, we're going to have cool hats soon! You wait and see!
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Old 05-10-2014, 06:14 AM   #68
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All we gotta do is set some really awesome lofty goals for FF's future and then just start constantly doing little things here and there and everywhere all on our way to each awesome goal we have in mind.

It's basically about setting reasonable goals with the big picture in mind, focusing on specific tasks that get us closer to achieving the big picture. But it's important to act on ideas beyond just thinking about them. Can't just choose things, gotta do things.

Also need to look at FF's history and learn from mistakes, learn what we did right, try to improve on everything.

In my opinion, Fortress Forever is needed now more than ever, because this industry is filled with a lot of crappy games following a lot of crappy/shady methods and practices. I miss TFC and the days before microtransactions nickle and dime the fun away. I like TF2, but I miss old TF without all those damn HATS and the completely chaotic world of custom everything. And I miss FF. And I hate that it was never "done"

The entire development side of FF needs a makeover just like the game itself, starting with gaining momentum. The momentum of an idea, this idea of doing FF right in every way possible.

Lack of marketing is correct, but there isn't much to market right now. When we had things to market, it marketed itself most of the time. The game needs to be remade and it needs to recapture that old TF feel, and we gotta go back to trying cool new ideas just for the sake of having fun making and playing a game.

I wanna play in matches and I want to play in silly pubs and I want to play skill maps and fun maps and sniper only maps and whatever...to me, TFC was all about the variety surrounding one core game idea. The strong core game allowed the modding community to thrive around it and people were able to enjoy it in their own way.

Think about Quake, it had a bunch of mods for it as well as games made with its engine. Half-Life, Unreal, etc...the best engines are based around a good game too. If you have an engine without a core game, it's just total chaos...which can be fun, but there's something different about like Roblox and Garry's Mod based on a sandbox compared to something like UT.

If you take a step back and think of FF in a kind of abstract "engine" kind of way, that's how TFC also was to an extent thanks to its entity system and it being based on Half-Life/Quake. That ability to mod around a core is my favorite part, because even TFC was like a game and engien of its own with a bunch of "mods" that ranged from models and maps to full server mods.

FF needs to get out this lull bubble...need more devs, new blood and whatnot. It's a whole different game industry than when FF started and there's no reason why FF can't take advantage now more than ever, except for a lack of focus on its future. FF is greenlit right now and we can release anything we want whenever we want, and even be there ready to take advantage of steam in the living room and all this VR stuff that's about to take off.

If I had to plan FF's future, which I've thought about for almost 10 years now haha, I'd have to say FF can be remade on a modern engine with modern techniques and future proofings, and plenty of people would be willing to make something that's distinct from TF2 and more of a pure TF experience. And of course, plenty of people would play it too.

Important note: a "pure TF experience" does not mean league/organized play only.

That was a mistaken way of thinking of too many of the original devs...some of us fought hard for more focus on pub and chaotic play, but I never liked the idea of getting too chaotic like TF2. In my opinion, FF's biggest mistake was too much focus given to organized play and serious ignorance of the really fun side of TF.

Another important note: the fun/chaotic side doesn't mean the silliness of TF2, but more like Axl's TFC.

There's a balance that can be found and I want to help figure it out and do it.

Without Source 2, our option would be Unreal. For obvious/historic/valve reasons, using Source would be ideal, but not old source. It would be a waste of time using this old source engine right now when so much cool stuff is happening in the game industry. But yeah, aside from Source 2 I think Unreal is probably the best option. Lots of unreal devs out there too...

I want that source2 though...how do we get it? Can we start a grass roots movement right now? Anyone here in the community can help, let's get source2 for FF, surely we can bug people at valve in the right kind of way to get it haha

In the meantime, I suggest we use 3d scans for the characters (http://triplegangers.com/) and whatever else...but not nude? right? right...

Step one is just to get these gears turning again, because honestly there's no reason why they can't and the only thing stopping this is us not doing it. We just gotta stop trying to do it all ourselves and getting so overwhelmed with the big picture like it can't happen if we don't do it all right now or something. There's a bunch of people out there who don't even know about FF at all.

And with all the browser gaming and vr stuff and 4k/8k/DICk, a huge change is happening and it will be more exciting than ever to make games in this era, during this major tectonic shift in gaming and just peoples basic understanding of what a game even is.

FF is this old game from the old days, but it's called Fortress Forever. To me, it's always been about passing the torch a bit to keep the essence all up in it...

this should be a new thread I guess, something about a redux/revolution/resurgence/movement/orgy

I'm starting here, I don't know why...

http://www.develteam.com/Game/Fortress-Forever/

Join that site, follow FF and FFDev, and if you're a dev yourself then let's talk about collaborating on FF's development

And if you're not a dev, maybe we can just formulate some plans and take FF where it needs to go.

We could also create an FFPR team or something.

Gotta start connecting things together. I hate hour disconnected this website is, for example. This whole system is too closed and broken, we gotta change it up.

This is when I yell let's do it and nobody comes yet...but y'all will soon enough when this lil inception right here pans out


(normally I'd go through an edit this post to make sure it's worded right, but I'm just gonna let my babble flow)
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Old 05-10-2014, 07:17 AM   #69
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Thanks for the post jon. I'm sure people will help out, myself included where we can
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Old 05-10-2014, 08:14 AM   #70
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Direction and stuff, I can get behind that.
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Old 05-10-2014, 08:21 AM   #71
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Key words I think of when I think about a new fortress game if I had my way:
FUN
Interactive
Fast Paced

Easy To Learn - Whether it be through youtube tutorials or a training mode, this is a must.
Savage/Bloodthirsty - It needs an AWE effect. Something that brings out the carnal side of you. Think Quake, Mortal Kombat, Unreal, RotT, TFC, Half Life, something that makes you never want to stop playing it.
Organized Chaos - A matchmaking system would be great. Something that connects random people together to play an organized pickup instead of solely playing against veterans of the game. (Like in CS:GO)
Customizable - From hud elements to models/sounds/rocket trails/explosions, it should all be customizable on some level. With the Steam Workshop in full effect, it makes it a perfect outlet for custom game content, not to mention ricey's new site which I hope has a way to upload custom content.
Evocative - It needs to stand out and in a big way. Too many games get overlooked by these massively funded games and it'd be nice to take a good sized chunk of those gamers and play this game instead.
Balanced
Silly - It needs to not take itself too seriously. Maybe add some voices to the characters to give them a pulse with sarcastic comments/humor.
Storytelling (Humans love a good story or background story maybe for each character or map. For instance, on the map Aardvark, it is clearly built over the old TFC 2fort which is something that makes that map pretty awesome all by itself.)
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Old 05-10-2014, 11:22 AM   #72
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Important note: a "pure TF experience" does not mean league/organized play only.

That was a mistaken way of thinking of too many of the original devs...some of us fought hard for more focus on pub and chaotic play, but I never liked the idea of getting too chaotic like TF2. In my opinion, FF's biggest mistake was too much focus given to organized play and serious ignorance of the really fun side of TF.
feel like this point is irrelevant, the game can play in any mode, pub or competitive. the goal should be to move pubs towards AvD / zone capture and comp stays CTF. AvD would be actually fun in FF if you could grenade jump. i feel like the game's focus is driven by map designers and server owners.

FF has had 2 game modes for a few years. Yard Deathmatch wars on pubs and pickups.

I personally hate to pub because CTF is a broken gamemode without structured rules, and AvD is broken in FF. (flag toss, through the wall flag indicators, jump pads, cant HH with nades)

all in all good post jon, im just rambling and repeating myself for the 100th time. because these are the simple reasons as to why the game is stuck in limbo, the experience for new players playing the game is utter shit because the only people pubbing are the OT players or idiots playing yard D on Moto's server.

to be honest im not entirely sure i care that much, i'm suffering FF heartbreak because the games dead, and im not sure whether to be happy or sad, i think i spent more time trying to fill pickups over the last 2 years than i did playing in them. I feel like trying to revive this game is most likely a massive waste of time.
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Old 05-10-2014, 11:57 AM   #73
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I also tend to agree that more DM centric game modes are better for pubs. Even though the pubs play a lot of ctf, a lot of times it boils down to most people DMing in random places with a couple scouts trying to move flags against a demo or soldier. It's not so bad on bigger maps, but it just seems like DM modes would better facilitate what people tend to do in the pub.

AvD is great for pubs, it's great all around. But I still think the absolute best game mode for pubs and DM in general is sequential capture point maps. Basically warpath, how ever you want to describe that game mode. Honestly it provides all provides all the DM AvD does, while giving both teams much more open class choices, in a well structured environment where it's hard to do anything that isn't really benefiting your team. Both teams could have any class at any given time. That's a big problem with CTF is you see people wanting to play the heavier classes on offense.

The problem is warpath is the only map for that game mode and it's terrible. Points 3 and 4 are way to far apart. The map is basically a straight line, the other paths being out of the way and never used. The chokes are horrible especially from mid to 2nd point. The game mode already caters to DM so the maps can afford to be a little more open, there should obviously be chokes but they can be lighter chokes, not a mile long tunnel the size of a rocket. There should be multiple paths that interweave a little more naturally.

Anyways,
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Old 05-10-2014, 02:32 PM   #74
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The reason Warpath IS the only SCP map out, is because it's really fcking hard to map for. CTF maps? Well, you only really design 3 choke points.

There's the 2 flag room entrances, and the yard to lobby entrance.

In SCP maps, you need a main entrance and a side entrance to EVERY cap, pretty much. So, you're designing and testing and fixing 8 choke points, rather than 3. (7, really, because CP 1/5 spawn has no real 'side' entrance to CP 1/5.)

SCP is a really annoying gamemode in general. You see this in the SCP TF2 maps as well. After all, the most balanced maps make re-capturing your second point easier than capturing the fourth point, by having a more open space towards the team who actually has that point as their second. But this leads to EVERYTHING only happening on the middle cap. It's just a giant game of tug-of-war that no-one can actually win, until a team is much better than the other.

I feel a much more balanced mode is KOTH (at least in TF2), because it's the CP 3 gameplay, but actually based around it, so it plays well and you don't care that it's a tug-of-war, because it's SUPPOSED to be. That said, in FF, delaying respawn time is a BIG no-no, so the balance can't be pushed to the offensive team using timers. (You'd probably need to move spawning slightly further back after capturing. - Which is the FF way of increasing spawn timers. Except it's not spawn timers, it's the time to getting in the real action.) I've never even seen the KOTH FF maps, because no-one votes. I believe they're also really conc-fly based maps, too.

I do think that although FF needs more SCP maps, it shouldn't be as major a thing as you think, FDA. The main focus in pubs needs to be on gimmicks.

Maps need something special that separates them from the rest. Say, take your very own tidalwave. The surfing in it greatly increases re-playability because it's fun. I feel that it does however come with a few problems. I mean, in tidalwave, you want to play offence. Because you can't do all this 1337 stuff as a fat and slow hwguy. Swoop has a few surf places too.

Now, sunnyramps and xpress. It's fun because you can fly like a bitch for pretty much ever. Only problem is, it's yet another thing only offence can do. Sure, a defence sniper can have fun sniping scouts out the air, but, every other class plays kinda boring and standard flag play. And fiddle is another map where conc-play works really well.

Maps need something that's cool and that the DEFENCE can use as well.

That axl's tfc thing seemed really good because the maps looked cool and seemed to play cool no matter which team you were on, and what you were doing. The gimmicks always affected you positively.
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Old 05-10-2014, 03:55 PM   #75
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In reference to squeeky quote. I only moan because spy is gimp with pro gas and scout lacks it sexy caltrops. This is TFC baby! I admit teleporters are overpowered. I've never wanted them in the game just always busted on ya but if a spy could walk on walls and ceilings I think that could be pretty sick. Like spider man with the grappling hook idea. I just get bored when I play and jump back to TFC and have more fun. :/ I just like the setup TFC has and I'm set in my ways. But I still enjoy jumping on a public game and knifing people with my gimp spy.
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Old 05-10-2014, 04:32 PM   #76
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I agree CTF is rather a stagnant choice for a main game type, but I won't discount it altogether. It still serves as a good way to teach people how to play, even if it's only through DM'ing. I find a lot of newer people wanting to go to actual DM maps rather than something with a cohesive objective. The problem with most CTF maps is people only learn from what they see, and if they see a bunch of people yard DMing, I can pretty much guarantee they will start playing that way. So in part it is on us as the game's regulars to teach people the correct way to do it, but not complain when they don't follow those guidelines.

At the end of the day it's not about seeing how many times you can capture a flag but using an awesome class to take out the enemy. I like AVD maps, but some of them can be a bit confusing for new people, even with the flag/objective icons and I believe this to be the case because it's too open-ended on some maps like ksour. I prefer maps like dustbowl where there is a clear division between points, though the 60 second timer makes it boring, not to mention the map ends when one team caps all points. I think there needs to be a bigger emphasis on each class' special abilities. The newer class menu helps in this, but it should be more interactive in that people can scroll over whatever weapon or special move a class has to get some basic info on how to use it. Training also needs to improve to include class-based gameplay rather than focusing on movement.
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Old 05-10-2014, 04:46 PM   #77
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Any new FF development would need to hit on every kind of TF out there.

It would need to be a game of games out of necessity, from a TFC feel to FF to TF2 to QWTF, there are too many people to please to be focusing on one mode or anything. They're all good, relative to the player. Like even from early FF to current FF, because what it is now is way different than what it was and people find enjoyment in different ways.

I have an idea for a cleaned up CTF mode, having to do with optionally having the map and game forcefully make it OvD instead of just classic/pure CTF. Honestly, that would probably be the first thing I work on, a new 2fort that's classic or ovd (or whatever) depending on various factors from server settings to player counts to player votes etc.

What I want to do at some point this weekend is create the public FF beta on steam, because we can release it right now. It's just private to devs currently, but steam's ultimate power is just its huge ability to perfect a game or app's accessibility. Millions of steam players don't really need to know about old ff because it's so old people won't blink an eye, but there needs to be an easy an obvious way to play the old stuff while it's being remade.

But I think if they want to play the old/current FF they gotta opt in by either coming here or another beta in the steam app properties.

So get your popcorn ready, cause the secret steam release of FF is about to go down asap

Then we just develop it in a kind of steam early access way, either beta stuff or literally early access like Prison Architect, Natural Selection 2, Insurgency, except free. If done correctly, maybe users can make money through workshop, but honestly it's about FF being free and full of variety. We can make it all happen without money, then the hats could be avoided. Or there could literally be a money option, so if you want hats and things then you're in that world. I'm not sure, all I know is that FF needs to be free but it's also hard to find quality devs for something without money. Maybe some momentum for FF will change that mentality though, offer a strong option for completely free to play...hmmm. Cause we can't sell FF, too many devs created it, no way to figure out ownership. So it's a public game in that sense, because nobody owns this intellectual property, plus it's based on Team Fortress, which is its IP. So FF has to be free, but that doesn't mean users have to give their stuff away for free. Something interesting can be figured out.

If I can't figure out the real steam early access stuff for FF, I'll figure out the cd key stuff for now to start giving them away on this site...ohhh or even within old FF, like run FF and get told about the steam version...

Ok, I'm gonna move most dev discussion to develteam
http://www.develteam.com/Game/Fortress-Forever/

Eventually I'll add some tasks regarding these ideas and everyone elses
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Old 05-10-2014, 06:28 PM   #78
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Without Source 2, our option would be Unreal.
A script based interface for a project the size of a Fortress game would make me nervous.

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Old 05-10-2014, 09:24 PM   #79
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Team Fortress has always been a sort of "nether" game, stuck in between different focuses. DM, Frags, Objectives, Movement Techniques, etc.

And not all classes are created equal. Scout and Medic move like the wind, while sniper stays put.

If the focus should be compelling classes, then we should look at what is actually fun to play and play against.

This is why I don't mind cutting classes. Fewer classes with more tools is more fun than 9 imbalanced classes.

SuperDude has a point about spy. The more movement and sneaking tools he has the more fun he is to play.

I had no idea a public beta was on Steam. Here I was just waiting for it to be greenlit. I liked old beta playthroughs where we actually tried new tools. I would love to playtest a monthly beta build. Bring back the goo gun and the scout movement gun.

More thoughts later I suppose.

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Old 05-11-2014, 12:51 AM   #80
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There's really nothing wrong with CTF atm, and changing things and making "ovd" maps won't really help. It's just that for ctf to really shine it requires a certain format, and you can't really change that without kind of ruining what it is now. It's got nothing to do with OvD or knowing how to play. We have no trouble getting people to play ovd and even newer players pick up the concept pretty quickly. But the thing is we have players who've played longer than I have and know very well how ctf works, but still insist on playing offensive hw guy, or leaving their one scout to play 1v3 while they build an SG to defend the blue base no one is going towards. CTF is just a little restrictive on class roles and people don't always feel like falling into those roles. It doesn't mean you can't play CTF in pubs, and it doesn't mean that we have to change CTF to "fix" that. CTF is great how it is, and the balance that has catered to it can fit well with other game modes just as well.
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