Snipers! They don't belong.

[mervaka]

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

I covered mervaka other post when I replied to someone else. A few others and I have counted all the arguments, time and time again.

i was actually referring to the paragraph i wrote where we said we weren't going to just take sniper out the game at a whim. we're going back and putting more thought into this. this is why i'm pitching you guys some of the ideas.

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

Engi railguns scout, scout doesn't get a chance to fight back, scout dies no interaction.

granted, this is another problem weapon. don't think that we aren't putting thought into that. engineers don't need to still be able to fire at range though, so we can quite easily fix that when focus comes round to it.

shotguns most people have, so they're on a level pegging.

[Gwarsbane]

Originally Posted by mervaka

i was actually referring to the paragraph i wrote where we said we weren't going to just take sniper out the game at a whim. we're going back and putting more thought into this. this is why i'm pitching you guys some of the ideas.

Well then maybe you should have said that, because I still don't know what page you posted that on, I don't know what post it was in. I don't remember it.

And other admins have said they are considering removing the class in other posts.

And the closest thing I seen on the last page or so back was...

we'd like to keep sniper in.

That doesn't seem to be like you are not going to remove it, it seems more like you are thinking of removing it. It is a big difference.

Originally Posted by mervaka

granted, this is another problem weapon. don't think that we aren't putting thought into that. engineers don't need to still be able to fire at range though, so we can quite easily fix that when focus comes round to it.

shotguns most people have, so they're on a level pegging.

You argued that a sniper killing someone was not interaction because the person didn't/couldn't fight back. I argued that it doesn't matter because anyone shooting from a distance could be considered non-interaction when someone doesn't or can't fightback with any other class shooting them and so that kind of non-interaction shouldn't be considered.


Sniper is designed to be long distance, removing that pretty much means killin the sniper.

All classes can do short range ok, though spy is the best at it.

All classes can do medium range, though Pyro is best at it.

All classes can do long range, though sniper is best at it.


I see people complaining about all the classes. This class is over powered, that class is over powered. And its all with the same patch and I keep hearing the same thing from patch to patch. People are going to complain, they just need to learn how to dodge better and fight better.

Most of the classes are fine as they are, there are only a few tweaks I would suggest. Totally changing the sniper just because some people can't get past them is not the right thing to do.

[Elmo]

Sniper can do infinite range, no other class can.

[Gwarsbane]

Originally Posted by Elmo

Sniper can do infinite range, no other class can.

All classes can do infinite range. And yes I have killed, long range, with all these weapons. I have also been killed by all these weapons long range

Shotguns will go end to end on a map
Minigun will go end to end on a map
Railgun will go end to end on a map
Tranq dart will go end to end on a map
Rocket will go end to end on a map


The only one who doesn't have a weapon that can go from end to end is the civilian (though I hear you guys were thinking of giving him a tommy gun a little while back).

[GenghisTron]

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

All classes can do infinite range. And yes I have killed, long range, with all these weapons. I have also been killed by all these weapons long range

Shotguns will go end to end on a map
Minigun will go end to end on a map
Railgun will go end to end on a map
Tranq dart will go end to end on a map
Rocket will go end to end on a map


The only one who doesn't have a weapon that can go from end to end is the civilian (though I hear you guys were thinking of giving him a tommy gun a little while back).

Sir, do you know what a logical fallacy is? Moreover, do you know what a false equivalency is? Here, let me give you an example.



That is an example of a 'false equivalency'. There's no logical comparison between the crime and punishment delivered between the two individuals. Much in the same way, that comparing a weapon that specializes in long-rage combat (Notice how the Sniper Rifle is the only weapon out of all the other weapons you listed that has a SCOPE) is able to kill people across a map to another weapon, that, by pure happenstance and reasonable deduction will eventually deal damage and/or kill someone across the map. There is a fundamental difference between a sniper rifle, and ANY OTHER weapon that can deal damage from far distances. I'm sorry sir, but if you don't see this distinction, it's time to get a lobotomy. You're comparing a big ass apple, to a tiny ass orange, and simultaneously making a fool out of yourself.

[Bridget]

These weapons can kill people at long range. You're right. However, it's very impractical and ineffective using these weapons at long range. Can people consistently kill others with these weapons at longer ranges? Projectiles like the rocket and tranquillizer dart and railgun beam have travel times which force you to lead your shots. The shotguns also suffer in terms of accuracy because of their spread.

The Sniper's Rifle, on the other hand, is very effective and practical at killing enemies consistently at longer ranges. The weapon is hitscan which means (in principle, hitboxes, etc) you don't have to lead your shots. The damage, enough to insta-gib anything other than Heavy or Soldier anywhere except the head, doesn't decrease with range as/and there is no spread; The bullet always goes where you aim.

Should weapons work at long range in any shape or form? I've recently concluded that I think Fortress Forever would be better limiting all interactions to close range. However, does that mean you can instantly paint all current long-range capable weapons with the same brush we use on the Sniper's weapon of choice? No. I really think it's a shitty comparison.

[GenghisTron]

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

I actually covered about the range problem specifically in another post, but yes, I forgot to counter it specifically, though everything I suggested could be used to counter it and I'm not going to bother to post about them again you can just read up.

You yourself in the post that, 'here are the reasons they (Sniper detractors) want sniper removed, and here are (my) counters'. Don't you think it's a bit odd that you left out a bunch of salient points by sniper detractors, even IF you already went over them? Because many of the 'counters' in that very post, were ALSO debated by you in the past. The only connection here, is that you included weak arguments against your class, and left out the bad ones. You have debated them all before, but the ONLY recurring theme in the post is that you excluded the good arguments, and included the bad. That's my point. You've debated most of these points before, probably multiple times. It's just--the really strong points are missing.

Stop trying to cover your trails, and just admit you're being intellectual dishonest.

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

Any class can kill at a distance, some can even instant kill (as in it hits and you're dead). This seems to be the main thing people are crying about. Guess what it happens, deal with it by getting better and learn to dodge because yes, even a sniper can be dodged, I know I do it all the time, hell I even dance in front of them taunting them as they miss time after time. And this is out in the open, or in a long narrow tunnel. Snipers are not perfect. Sometimes they kill me, sometimes I kill them, sometimes we kill each other, sometimes we both live. This is against both good and bad snipers.

I already covered this in my most recent post so no, this entire point is wholly void and completely non-sequitur. Try again.

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

Oh boo freakin hoo, I missed a few excuses people are using that have been posted through out 23 or 24 pages (at the time). Oh boo freakin hoo I didn't go through every single page with 20 posts on each one and read every single post to make sure I didn't miss anything.

*plays victim*

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

And to you it might be a "strong" argument against the sniper but to me it was just another weak excuse that people are using to try to get rid of the sniper because they suck against the snipers (which some have admitted to in this and/or other thread that they can't even get out of the spawn because of snipers).

That's fine and daddy, but I (and Bridget, squeek, etc.) deal in objectivity and empirical evidence. You can be intentionally obtuse to defend your favorite class, but I'm debating from my perspective, using a priori reasoning, to identify a problem, and diagnose it, as objectively as I can. It's fine you don't think some of these arguments are strong, that's your prerogative, however, I have empirical evidence on my side. You do not. You're being a moral relativist, in essence, which is laughable.

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

There have been so many excuses that I lost track of them all. Boo freakin hoo.

They're not 'excuses', they're well-reasoned, salient arguments supported by an empirical understanding of the game, and the true issues that arise from a class that is CLEARLY out of place.

And no, sir, I don't believe that you simply 'forgot', because the very arguments I'm talking about (the ones which you ignored), were debated by you, just a few posts above the one which I responded to originally.

Instead, you're showing a trend of intellectual dishonesty. I don't know if you're being intentionally dishonest, or you're so confused and partisan that all your mind can muster is a half-assed defense of your class, but it's pretty clear from my perspective that you're being intellectual dishonest.

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

You get all upset over the ones I supposedly missed, trying to make it seem like I did it on purpose yet with virtually the same breathe you say that I already debated them. I guess I'm damned if I do damned if I don't.

Here you go with the intellectual dishonesty again. I realize that you debated them, my point was, you left them out of your COMPENDIUM OF POSTS FOR WHY SNIPER SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM THE GAME. You started off that post by saying;

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

If you want it so simple that even an amoeba can handle it, then fine here are the reasons why they want it removed/nerfed and the counters to those reasons.

So basically, you took it upon yourself to list all the counter-arguments that (you knew) against the sniper. HOWEVER, arguments that you had RECENTLY had on the very same page, were missing, and even ones from further back. This isn't a 'damned if I do, damned if I don't' thing, it's a 'You're possibly being intellectually dishonest at best, or intentionally, at worst' thing.

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

Interesting, you don't bother to counter any of my counters,

I didn't directly counter it, because I was pointing out how, basically, what you did was rely on (yet another) logical fallacy. You based your entire counter-argument on what the player can do to dodge the sniper. I point that out here;

that's why all of your 'advice' was to avoid the sniper, using varying methods,

So, yes, I didn't formally address your point, but if you look at the big picture I pointed out how your reasoning was fallacious. The point is simple, the balance of a class should not depend on extraneous things players should be required to do to avoid being sniped. That's not interaction. You're shifting the blame of the player getting sniped... onto the player, and instead taking it away from the sniper and the sniper class (where it belongs). That kind of reasoning might fly in a Kindergarten classroom, but we're grown adults, I would hope we're capable of not relying on fallacious arguments to prove our point.

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

you try to make it look like I purposely left stuff out because I couldn't counter it, then say that I already answered them. And then you start insulting me.

'blah blah blah playing the victim'

I've already pointed out multiple times how your posts are trending towards intellectual dishonesty, it's within reason to surmise that, indeed, this is just another ploy of yours to be intellectually dishonest. That's fine and all, just stop playing the victim, thanks.

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

Again I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.

'i am a victim'

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

And no I don't believe the sniper is broken, and no all my advice is not to avoid snipers, all my advice was to help people avoid getting shot by a sniper.

Well, this is an extraordinary example of doublethink if I've ever seen one. You realize you just blatantly contradicted yourself, right? K, moving on.

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

It was suggestions to help them get out of a spawn or across the yard to get to the sniper or get to the enemy base.

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

I can get out of my spawn and take on a sniper. I might get killed a few times, big deal, I just figure out a way to get out. Then I go kill the sniper, or I go distract the sniper, or go for his base to get the flag and kill others.

Yea, who cares that you'll get killed a few times, meanwhile there's literally nothing you can do about it, meanwhile the sniper is sitting from the safety of his battlements, most likely just feet away from a resupply bag, and he kills you repeatedly. That's perfectly balanced and fair!

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

I've killed a sniper across the map as a medic, and it wasn't because I infected him before hand and ran. I shot and killed with a shot gun, I shot and killed with a nail gun. All the while being shot at by the sniper. I can't do this all the time but I have, just like a sniper can't kill me all the time, but they do kill me. (and no that doesn't mean that I am nearly impossible to kill so don't bother trying to suggest more into that then there is).

I've done that too. A sniper sits in a spot, and you just dodge his shots, he gets a string of misses, and you slowly get him down. Wow, congrats. This, however, is not an effective way to judge class balance. What you're doing is basically judging balance based on the misfortune of a single player in one encounter. This is another logical fallacy. It is called 'the fallacy of composition', and is not a valid way of making an argument. Try again.

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

Now no doubt I have missed something, and no doubt I will be accused of purposely leaving it off.

Yea, I get it *plays the victim some more*

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

Guess what I'm human, I also have a life outside of these forums and don't have the time or the interest to look through every single post, and try to decipher hidden meanings in posts or reread every freakin post of a 27 page thread. 524posts are a little much to go through, and unlike some, I don't have a picture perfect memory to remember every one of them.

*continues*

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

Now as you have said, I have already countered all the points and if we keep going like this we're just going to keep going around and round and round, and I will no doubt end up countering all the points all again.

Really now? When have I ever said you 'countered all the points'? I'm pretty sure this entire debate we're having currently arose from the fact that I accused you of LEAVING out arguments that were detrimental of your cause. Is this more doublethink? I think I smell doublethink!

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

To the devs.

If you take out the sniper or nerf it badly you're going to loose more players then you gain. And it WILL NOT ONLY BE PEOPLE WHO ONLY PLAY SNIPERS who will leave. It will also be people like me that enjoy playing against good snipers.[/quote]

I hear a vast majority of people bitching about snipers than those who defend them. For some reason, I don't fully believe you, especially given your recent history...

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

How about this, you don't want to play against snipers then go play on a server that don't allow them.

Oh damn, out of all... 2! active servers (that the majority of people aren't banned from *cough*), well, I guess that isn't happening.

Originally Posted by Gwarsbane

You don't want snipers in clan/pickup/whatever play then include an easy way that server admins can exclude snipers.

By default snipers are disabled in those environments (for good reason), so that really isn't a problem.

[PoisonDuckie]

Well I want to tune in one more time. In my opinion I don't think it would be fair just to remove the sniper from the game. If you were to take the sniper out then it would not be fair to those who like him in the game or to the people who map sniper maps.
I think a more fair approach would be to make it available for the server owners to have lua files with sniper dissabled. I think there are plenty of people who don't like the sniper so getting the fixes should be easy enough. Just have them on this site for download.
I have made the point before that taking out the sniper would really be a slap to the face for people like me who have been playing tfc/ff for a long time. I like the sniper, I rarely use the class but I do like the class in the game. I can also say that there are maps that they do not belong in.
If there cannot be some kind of middle ground to be agreed upon then you can't really say you are being fair or objective in the argument. A lua fix for those who want it would be the best way to come to an agreement IMO.
So before you bash my idea(whoever responds), come up with your own idea to make it fair to all. Obviously there are more against the idea than for it so I don't see how it could be just forced. No, a middle ground needs to be found.

[Bridget]

Server owners and map makers can already disable Snipers. They won't do that, though. You know why? They don't give a shit about whether or not the Sniper is broken, because appealing to the Snipers means their server is a few more players popular than the next and with only two or three servers going around, man. . . This fairness issue is laughable, especially considering the people who play the most unfair class in the game are the ones complaining about getting screwed.

[SSCUJO]

Originally Posted by Bridget

These weapons can kill people at long range. You're right. However, it's very impractical and ineffective using these weapons at long range. Can people consistently kill others with these weapons at longer ranges? Projectiles like the rocket and tranquillizer dart and railgun beam have travel times which force you to lead your shots. The shotguns also suffer in terms of accuracy because of their spread.

but i thought the whole idea was that you couldn't fight back against a sniper? here you say you can, but you can't kill the target (most times). its not those weapons jobs to kill at long range, if it was then they would all be snipers, those weapons can be used to counter a sniper. on arddvark maybe no, but 2fort and other maps they will have a good effect.

also genghistron, that was a complete waste of a post, he asked what he missed and you didn't even tell him? what are these points that your are talking about that he missed? name them directly and he can counter them. for some reason you have yet to name the posts or arguments he left out. instead you choose to sit there and insult.

EDIT: BRIDGETS POST: wait im confused. if there are really THAT many people that hate sniper then they would have no problem populating a server that does not allow a sniper. are you sure thats the reason? or do you just think thats the reason? if i hated the sniper as much as you briget i would only play on a server that removed the sniper, and if as many people as you claim have the same feeling, you have nothing to worry aobut. there will be 2 servers populated one with and one without sniper. whats the problem?

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by SSCUJO

but i thought the whole idea was that you couldn't fight back against a sniper? here you say you can, but you can't kill the target (most times). its not those weapons jobs to kill at long range, if it was then they would all be snipers, those weapons can be used to counter a sniper. on arddvark maybe no, but 2fort and other maps they will have a good effect.

The argument has always been on balancing the ability to interact. If a Soldier can interact with me in a very limited way, then I should only be able to interact with him in a very limited way. The more he opens himself up for better interaction, the more risk he takes because my potential for interaction increases as does his. This is the range consistency. It becomes near proportionate with nine out of ten classes.

Notice, this doesn't mean the Scout should be able to own a Heavy. All this suggests is that the Scout should be able to utilize his maximum potential at the same fucking time the Heavy can, though given the way the class works, this situation would be avoided all together. If I am playing * (minus Sniper) against * (minus Sniper), given our range restrictions, we both focus on trying to win the battle at the same time. Against a Sniper, you have to focus half the time on closing the distance and preventing your early death before you even reach the point where you can persuade the fight in your favor.

My comment was on server owners. They want as many players as possible, often without regard for what's fair and what's not. Though, players are reluctant to move to other servers for many reasons. The servers they are already on provide social constructs, communities, provide familiar faces, organize stuff, and so on. Those aspects become especially fragile considering how small this community is. I'd rather get Sniped over and over on the Talos server than play Sniper-free on some lone server with nobodies.

[xks]

The Sniper is certainly not overpowered, but it is the king of long range. The Scout is the only class worse than a Sniper up close and at mid range.

The Sniper is also one of the most fun and entertaining classes in FF (which says a lot). It is especially appealing amongst the newer players and those that haven't grasped concing/trimping/bhing and other stuff.

It's very easy to learn what to do as a Sniper, although it still takes skill to be a good one (both in positioning and aiming among other things).

A Sniper is very good at taking out an individual at long range. It is next to useless at taking out a group at long range, dealing with pressure at long/mid/short ranges and taking damage of any form.

On many occasions as a Sniper you have a window of one or two seconds to take your shot at an opponent before they are out of sight or moving too fast (to hit consistently). If you miss you are usually dead, or forced to run away (assuming the target is after you rather than charging your base).

I've been Sniped many times and I really don't see the problem with the Sniper. No one likes dying at long range before they've had a chance to perform their role, but that's the Snipers only weapon. If you had proper teamplay when attacking you'd have far less of an issue with a Sniper, but everyone wants to be an individual and a Sniper is a good individual class.

[be_]

Remember my suggestions here on page 25 http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...=21345&page=25

Originally Posted by be_

There is only a charged shot or a non-charged shot. If you charge up to anything in-between these two extremes and shoot before the bar is full, the damage dealt will be that of a completely non-charged shot.

Non-charged shot gives radio-tag. Leg shots and head shots don't give any effects.

Charged shot has 3 levels of damage:
- legshot = deals the least amount of damage (still more than a non-charged) and gives slowed movement effect.
- mid section = middle amount of damage, no effect.
- head shot = insta-gib. death no matter what class, armor, or health boost.

Combine all these with an extended charge time.

Couldn't figure out something to balance these negatives. Well what about this?

The charging process (however extra long it takes) slows down movement speed as usual. But once the gun is fully charged, they can run at normal speed.

[xks]

Originally Posted by be_

Remember my suggestions here on page 25 http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...=21345&page=25





Couldn't figure out something to balance these negatives. Well what about this?

The charging process (however extra long it takes) slows down movement speed as usual. But once the gun is fully charged, they can run at normal speed.

I think it's better the way it is, you'll have more people moaning over full speed Snipers with charge knowing the anti-Sniper brigade

[be_]

Originally Posted by xks

I think it's better the way it is, you'll have more people moaning over full speed Snipers with charge knowing the anti-Sniper brigade

If that is the case, then I'm out of ideas. :/

[xks]

You could reverse the charge-up time.

By that I mean let the Sniper shoot instantly at full power, just let the power automatically charge up afterwards. The Sniper can shoot before it's charged with less power as it can now of course.

Combine this with the initial changes I mentioned such as decreasing the time between full power shots and removing armour and you have a pretty decent glass cannon class.

[AfterShock]

We could stop making maps with a 10 mile wide open midmap.

[Nezumi]

That's the best solution.

Seriously, wtf were they thinking with maps like Tiger and Anticitizen?

Sarcasm aside, it really is a level design issue. A lot of the maps in FF are much bigger than TF maps were designed to be. This is especially important in CTF maps.

[Bridget]

It's not a level design issue. It's the Sniper.

[Nezumi]

Orly?