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Old 08-18-2007, 04:10 AM   #901
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I've said several times I acknowledge and realize that TFC has flaws. However, since TFC league play is pretty balanced already, I think I am justified in hoping THAT aspect of FF is very similar to TFC. Remember, this whole shit started when Mervaka criticized someone for saying something similar about wanting FF to be close to TFC. At the most I hope FF will fix some of the class balance issues so other classes can get involved in serious CTF... it looks like that has been taken care of. My point stands though... for example, the pyro was buffed BECAUSE he sucked in TFC... no other reason, no other influences.

This would be akin to buffing the Zerg in Starcraft 2 in your analogy, had the problem existed in Starcraft. If the makers of Starcraft 2 called the game something different (Space Wars Forever or something, idk), and they drew influences mostly from Startcraft, but also from other games in the Futuristic RTS genre... would you claim it wasn't the sequel to Starcraft? Of course not..

I view FF as the sequel to TFC... looking at it any other way is dumb in my opinion. Of course there are other influences, and of course the devs. have implemented original ideas, but I am amazed that people will argue with me on such trivial points.
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Old 08-18-2007, 04:33 AM   #902
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkynYrd
I've said several times I acknowledge and realize that TFC has flaws. However, since TFC league play is pretty balanced already, I think I am justified in hoping THAT aspect of FF is very similar to TFC. Remember, this whole shit started when Mervaka criticized someone for saying something similar about wanting FF to be close to TFC. At the most I hope FF will fix some of the class balance issues so other classes can get involved in serious CTF... it looks like that has been taken care of. My point stands though... for example, the pyro was buffed BECAUSE he sucked in TFC... no other reason, no other influences.

This would be akin to buffing the Zerg in Starcraft 2 in your analogy, had the problem existed in Starcraft. If the makers of Starcraft 2 called the game something different (Space Wars Forever or something, idk), and they drew influences mostly from Startcraft, but also from other games in the Futuristic RTS genre... would you claim it wasn't the sequel to Starcraft? Of course not..

I view FF as the sequel to TFC... looking at it any other way is dumb in my opinion. Of course there are other influences, and of course the devs. have implemented original ideas, but I am amazed that people will argue with me on such trivial points.
I doubt anyone was meaning to argue with you on the point that FF has taken the majority of its influence from TFC. That is basically implied.

But, to compare TFC gameplay to FF gameplay as though they are the same/very similar games is taking it a step too far if you have yet to play it (I've yet to play it also).

It is not right to assume that if it was x, y, and z in TFC it will be similar to x, y, and z in FF.

EDIT: Class balancing will change the competitive play of TFC into a unique new style of play, specific to FF. Only the testers know what that new style of play is at this point. It has been stated that the pyro is feasible as a defensive/heavy offensive class. The sniper is also more useful in clan-style play. Until the game releases and the competitive scene emerges, comparisons cannot be made between competitive TFC and competitive FF.

And, the bonus here is that if competitive FF is not so great, it can be fixed. Can't be suggesting what to fix if you don't know what is broke though.

Last edited by squeek.; 08-18-2007 at 04:38 AM.
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Old 08-18-2007, 05:12 AM   #903
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Fully understand your position.

I'm just a TFC fanatic that hopes the most fun parts of TFC remain relatively intact. Like almost everyone else I'm sure, the new parts of FF look very exciting and promising too. I don't want the same game... I want the same kind of game with new things to master, but not to the extent of TF2.

The only real beef I have with a couple of people in this thread is that they talk about what "some people want," and by referring to the "opinions" of the competitive TFC community, I feel they are misrepresenting our position.

Starting a flame war is never my intention in these threads although it happens sometimes. I'd be willing to have this thread closed on the grounds that it has reached the end of it's usefulness. I just ask that people think carefully about how they represent other communities/viewpoints, especially those with an influence on the outcome of FF (read: beta testers).

The simple fact is, people like me and Circ play TFC in very different ways. It's hard to reach an agreement on particular aspects of TFC's gameplay when they are handled differently from one group to the next.

I have been been playing TFC for a very very long time, and there are so many parts of the game that I am attached to, I am reluctant to see them change a lot. Fortunately, IMO, the devs have done a fantastic job in staying true to the spirit of competitive TFC, while also making the game more enjoyable for the casual player.

Just remember that when I say I want a certain part of TFC "to be left alone," it doesn't mean I want a direct port, or that I automatically assume that it will be a disaster in FF without playing it for myself. I am fascinated at how TFC evolved into such a unique, demanding game even at the expense of the developers wishes. I think it's a shame that Valve didn't recognize that they had a real diamond on their hands. I can only shower the makers of FF with thanks for not letting such a great concept die. At the same time, I am ready to accept some changes where necessary and I have confidence it will turn out to be all we hope for and more.
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Old 08-18-2007, 05:19 AM   #904
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squeek.
I'll go back to an RTS comparison. Let's say that in Starcraft, Zerg was so underpowered that nobody ever played them ever
Trivial Question: Do u fuckin played Brood War?
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Old 08-18-2007, 05:49 AM   #905
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mangetsu
Trivial Question: Do u fuckin played Brood War?
Interestingly worded. But, no. I played vanilla the whole time I played Starcraft. Broodwar never caught my attention.
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Old 08-18-2007, 07:06 AM   #906
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I played vanilla
I PLAYD CHOKLIT
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Old 08-18-2007, 02:14 PM   #907
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Old 08-18-2007, 02:34 PM   #908
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Old 08-18-2007, 03:19 PM   #909
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkynYrd
Fully understand your position.

I'm just a TFC fanatic that hopes the most fun parts of TFC remain relatively intact. Like almost everyone else I'm sure, the new parts of FF look very exciting and promising too. I don't want the same game... I want the same kind of game with new things to master, but not to the extent of TF2.

The only real beef I have with a couple of people in this thread is that they talk about what "some people want," and by referring to the "opinions" of the competitive TFC community, I feel they are misrepresenting our position.

Starting a flame war is never my intention in these threads although it happens sometimes. I'd be willing to have this thread closed on the grounds that it has reached the end of it's usefulness. I just ask that people think carefully about how they represent other communities/viewpoints, especially those with an influence on the outcome of FF (read: beta testers).

The simple fact is, people like me and Circ play TFC in very different ways. It's hard to reach an agreement on particular aspects of TFC's gameplay when they are handled differently from one group to the next.

I have been been playing TFC for a very very long time, and there are so many parts of the game that I am attached to, I am reluctant to see them change a lot. Fortunately, IMO, the devs have done a fantastic job in staying true to the spirit of competitive TFC, while also making the game more enjoyable for the casual player.

Just remember that when I say I want a certain part of TFC "to be left alone," it doesn't mean I want a direct port, or that I automatically assume that it will be a disaster in FF without playing it for myself. I am fascinated at how TFC evolved into such a unique, demanding game even at the expense of the developers wishes. I think it's a shame that Valve didn't recognize that they had a real diamond on their hands. I can only shower the makers of FF with thanks for not letting such a great concept die. At the same time, I am ready to accept some changes where necessary and I have confidence it will turn out to be all we hope for and more.
I agree with pretty much all of that... hopefully we'll be in the same FF clan SkynYrd
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Old 08-18-2007, 11:13 PM   #910
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkynYrd
I just ask that people think carefully about how they represent other communities/viewpoints, especially those with an influence on the outcome of FF (read: beta testers).

The simple fact is, people like me and Circ play TFC in very different ways. It's hard to reach an agreement on particular aspects of TFC's gameplay when they are handled differently from one group to the next.

I have been been playing TFC for a very very long time, and there are so many parts of the game that I am attached to, I am reluctant to see them change a lot. Fortunately, IMO, the devs have done a fantastic job in staying true to the spirit of competitive TFC, while also making the game more enjoyable for the casual player.
Again, you make it sound objective that clanplay is the way fortress games are played. I'll bring up the chicken and the egg analogy here. We all know well that pubs came first, but in this day and age one cannot live without the other. However, I do think that public play should be given a little leeway considering the need to grow the playerbase somewhat. Noone outside the fortress community is going to pick this game up and know the game and its ethos and etiquettes inside and out like clanplayers do.
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Old 08-19-2007, 08:04 AM   #911
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Seriously... I'm tired of arguing in this thread.

I've never claimed that league play was "the way" fortress games are played, nor do I recall ever claiming it was the superior choice for "serious gamers."

I stated my opinions and felt like the clan community was being misrepresented by non-clan testers. The end.
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Old 08-19-2007, 10:15 AM   #912
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squeek.
Interestingly worded. But, no. I played vanilla the whole time I played Starcraft. Broodwar never caught my attention.
Brood War was hated by a lot of people because of the Medic. Medic healed all of those bad status effect things and took the balance out of Stimpacks. (2 Medic and 10 Marine squad FTW.)
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Old 08-19-2007, 01:52 PM   #913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkynYrd
Seriously... I'm tired of arguing in this thread.

I've never claimed that league play was "the way" fortress games are played, nor do I recall ever claiming it was the superior choice for "serious gamers."

I stated my opinions and felt like the clan community was being misrepresented by non-clan testers. The end.
Perhapse the problem was the way you went about saying it....seemed like you were talking that clan-play is the ONLY way to play, and pubbers should find another game. Not all serious gamers are clanners, and not all clanners are serious gamers.

Step off of the "high and mighty" box, and you will find less opposition to your point of view.
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Old 08-19-2007, 05:33 PM   #914
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less arguing, more beta news/info
thanks!
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Old 08-19-2007, 05:57 PM   #915
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Any progress on the handling of 24 people? Or say... those other applications you guys thought about bringing on board? That'd be a nice dev journal update... wink wink.
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Old 08-19-2007, 07:52 PM   #916
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Quote:
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Any progress on the handling of 24 people? Or say... those other applications you guys thought about bringing on board? That'd be a nice dev journal update... wink wink.
Last I checked 24 people worked okay.

I think Skynyrd and everyone else are having different conversations here.

So, Skynyrd, I'll put it to you as this.

Since we can't get past the "You don't understand what I mean" issue, why don't you go ahead and list as many of the "good things" about TFC as you can. I'll run through them and give you a simple yes/no.
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Old 08-19-2007, 08:11 PM   #917
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Yeah, the lag spike of doom seems to be gone. The devs are really pushing for net optomization now; I don't know how mailing PHISH photos of my ex-girlfriend and a case of Jagermeister does that, but he says it will get the game out faster so I want to help.

The main issue we are seeing now is FPS spikes in certain sections of maps, but that is a problem in every Source game. Some maps had them before and now they are gone thanks to revisions and optimization on the mapper's end. This is a Source problem that any mapper should think about when they are making their maps.

But yeah, things are running pretty sweet now.
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Old 08-19-2007, 08:29 PM   #918
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantis
less arguing, more beta news/info
thanks!
FF looks very pretty. Oh! And scouts run fast.


See? Pretty.

Last edited by Demasu; 08-19-2007 at 09:13 PM.
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Old 08-19-2007, 08:45 PM   #919
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Old 08-19-2007, 09:12 PM   #920
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Well it's pretty.
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