First Round "Blind" in Pickups?

[Bridget]

This is a criticism of the way competitive games in Fortress Forever are played. I don't like competitive Fortress Forever because the first round is "blind". The first team to play offense has to play their absolute hardest to ensure they set a high standard for the offense team next round, and the defensive team has to do equal exertion to ensure the standard is low enough for them to easily overtake it next round. You do not scale your efforts dynamically in this round. You have to force it out of potential, out of chance, to ensure you come out of "the dark" on top.

Let's say the second round comes up. The first team scores eight captures. The new offensive now knows exactly how hard to play to ensure they reach or overtake that amount. The new defensive now knows how hard they have to play to ensure they keep the new offense from matching or bettering the standard they set previous round. But, because the first round is essentially "blind", they might be suffering from some sort of exhaustion from their efforts.

Now, I would go so far as to say the first team to play defense has the upperhand, because they are getting some sort of feedback in the first round, that allows them to scale their efforts a bit more: How well the offensive team is doing in the first round. But, the offensive team has no real idea how well the defensive team will play in the next round, so they must always play their absolute best.

So, essentially, the second round is where you start telling how the game is progressing. Both teams have to exert themselves a lot in the first round to ensure they come out on top in the second round, but the defensive team does have a feedback mechanism, which I see as being advantageous. Doesn't them seem a bit too much, even unfair? Am I missing something?

All I can think of are examples: Offense sucks, but you play defense extra hard just in case. Teams switch, you're exhausted, your offense isn't as good as it could be, you don't reach the caps set by the enemy team because you overcompensated first round, and you lose despite being better, simply because of the first round being blind. That, or, the defense is terrible, but you play your offense extra hard just in case. Teams switch, you're exhausted, your defense suffers, and the offense team steps all over you seemingly with minimal effort.

Yeah, you might say "Hey, if the offense or defense sucks, scale your efforts down." but, with the first round being a standard-setter, it might be counter-intuitive doing that. One moment of downtime, and the enemy team might slip in a few captures that seals their fate in the second round. You really have no choice, from my view, but to play your hardest in the first round to ensure the second.

This was never a problem for me in TF2, because both teams were competiting offensively/defensively at the same time, dynamically scaling their efforts as they received feedback. There is never a portion, I think, when playing a cp map in TF2 where you have to exert your maximum effort because you get cut off from knowing how well the enemy team will (have) perform(ed). You always know how much you need to win or overcome the enemy. No one is forced to set a standard, that they might regret setting so low or overcompensating for, when someone contests it.

There is stopwatch AVD in TF2, but I think it's rarely played, perhaps for this problem. What do you think?

[Iggy]

Similar to NFL Football, is it not? Only there, the flip of a coin decides who goes first. Either way, whomever goes first has the opportunity to set the tempo.

With a larger player base, you could run both sides at once, and adjust on the fly for what's needed.

Of course, you could say the same thing for I/D maps. One team goes first, and basicly sets the tempo. The only thing that could be said to be unfair, is that after the second round, team 1(that started on O) could hog the clock and end up scoring more than team 2, because there was little or no time for them to run their second O round. This is why I like maps like ff_genesis, each side has a specific amount of time to play each side. Yes, one team still goes O first, but it still balances out.

Team 1 scores x points, so team 2 knows how much they need to score to win. By the same token, team 1 knows how much they have to prevent team 2 from scoring, knowing that in the final round, that's the only way they can win.

[eomoyaff]

.... lol.

The only thing I'm going to say really about pickups -- is that it doesn't account for anything. It's just another style of play by players of a different generation and skill. Not sure why you would even bring Pickups into your list of things to talk about. Regardless pickups are always team dependable. He who has the better players on his team usually results in the victor. It's nothing to be taken seriously, but it does improve a players skill overall. That's why I play them. And I thank the competitive side of FF for doing that.

[glass 2.0]

How does one get exhausted from playing a round of FF? U gotta be in really bad shape dawg.

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by glass 2.0

How does one get exhausted from playing a round of FF? U gotta be in really bad shape dawg.

This thread is obviously far over your head.

[glass 2.0]

But yeah, the first round is what you call a standard-setter. But you do not suffer from it imo, you just adapt to the situation (both sides). And the team that plays defense first isnt the only team that gets some sort of feedback, it goes both ways.

All in all, i wouldn't say It's a concern.

[glass 2.0]

Oh sorry, I was busy writing some sort of reply. Kinda felt mean to just type that your lil thread was just bullshit.

[episkopos]

Originally Posted by glass 2.0

Oh sorry, I was busy writing some sort of reply. Kinda felt mean to just type that your lil thread was just bullshit.

Thank you for that insightful contribution to the discussion.

In response to OP, I think that it doesn't really matter for pickups as they're not serious games. It could be somewhat mitigated in leagues by having teams alternate between O first and D first, or by playing 8v8 or 6v6 with half each team attacking and half each team defending.

[Lynus]

exausted...

LOL

exausted....

ROFL

exausted.....

AHHAHAHAHAHA make it stop!!!!!

[zE]

FF Pickups system work fine as it is, just lack of new players sux.

[Elmo]

idea being - both teams try their hardest from the start. Better team wins.

[GenghisTron]

Problem solved. 5v5 or 8v8 CTF. Each team defends and attacks simultaneously.

[NeonLight]

Originally Posted by GenghisTron

Problem solved. 5v5 or 8v8 CTF. Each team defends and attacks simultaneously.

9v9 > 8v8 but yes, this is the truth

[Hammock]

We actually have a pretty good understanding of the maps played in pickups.

We've played the maps enough in different situations, where the teams were grossly stacked, or perfectly balanced, and we have a pretty good idea of how many caps you need for that map to win.

For example, it doesn't matter what side you play first, if the first offensive team only scores 1-2 points on destroy they will most likely loose. Just as if the first offensive team scores 150 caps on destroy they will most likely win.

For destroy you're looking anywhere from 8-10 caps for it to be a more evenly matched game.

So if you're offense first round on destroy and your team caps 8 times, it's still a toss up.

Granted it doesn't always nescessarily work like this, but on average this is the case for most maps.

[Dirky]

And since the FF strats are pretty much just taken from TFC lol...pretty universal.

[Hammock]

Ya, it's not exactly like for the 2nd round people are going to go... "Okay they did very good first round, we need to play our stronger strat. Since it's pretty much the same strat for both teams every game, the only real difference is who's playing what.

[Dirky]

Not only that people don't really care if they win pickups.. well, besides bridget apparently.

To back up Hammocks point, I played a destroy pickup the other day and after the teams were finalized someone made the comment, team a wins by 1600. Apparently they thought it was stacked, that pickup ended 8-7 victory. The only thing you could make a point for is player balancing...

[GenghisTron]

Originally Posted by NeoNL

9v9 > 8v8 but yes, this is the truth

Oops, yea, that's what I meant.

Edit: And yes, the simultaneous gameplay aspect of TFC is far superior to FF's. Not everyone can play every role, and in fact, some of us prefer to play our best role all the time.

[eomoyaff]

Now that I think about it, recently the FF.Pickup community has turned into a room full of trolls about 80% of the time. And half the time the pickup games are less organized and practically fail before both rounds are completed. As of right now, Pickups aren't really worth it. I've seen more organization in pub games as of recently. Kind of sad..

brb, waiting for trolls.

[KubeDawg]

So a mutiny is in order unless things get better before they get worse?

I say create a new pickup channel with responsible admins with a big disclaimer when you connect that reads, "Assholes, douches, pricks and bitches will be dealt with accordingly."

Enforce said disclaimer and you should be fine.