How do devs balance this game?

[AfterShock]

I keep trying to stop myself from posting, because it won't change anything (the game will get good eventually then the players will come back), but I feel I should try to make some of you guys feel better about the lack of balancing in 2.2 (and to some extent, 2.1).

Firstly, 2.2 wasnt a balancing patch. This is due to the way every class affects the rest. We needed to fix the HW before balancing anyone else.

While I don't have time to go into the very complex nature of all the different balancing decisions, I can tell you this:

We know the SG / the engineer class needs fixing (we tried some things in an effort to reduce the constant death-whilst-rebuilding frustrations which unfortunately led to other problems)
We know soldier is overpowered (as circ says, he was buffed due to the scout problem, once that is fixed we can bring him back in line)
We know demoman blue spam is annoying (we're implementing damage bonuses for direct hits shortly, amongst other ideas)
We know you can't juke demo traps any more due to the blast radius (this was down to the scout-capping-flag-because-you-missed-det-by-0.1-seconds problem)
We know the jump pad screwed up AvD more than anything else
We know the sniper is annoying to play against on CTF maps
We know there is a divide between organised and public play

And most of all:

We know that the future of this mod depends on obtaining a gameplay experience which skilled players and new players can play together and both have fun, trying to complete the objective, in maps that scale from 2v2 to 10v10 seamlessly, allowing complex movement skills and deathmatch tactics, whilst providing a learning curve for players to learn movement skills by playing alongside (but not getting totally owned by) the more skilled players.

[Desyphur]

Originally Posted by AfterShock

STUFF

/applaud

[MonoXideAtWork]

Excellent post!

I will go out there and say that I feel the jump pad is the only thing that makes the scout a viable option in AvD, as concs are not generally part of the mix.

I did not play TFC, so I have no idea how AvD is "supposed" to be played, but I enjoy speed, and when soldiers can use rox+nades to boost, demos can use pipes to boost, scouts and medics just get the finger as people fly by. At least thats how it feels.

Pads in AvD allow players to disperse from a spawn much more quickly, and avoid being killed in spawn spamfests (cp1-2), which aren't fun.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Aftershock

We know the jump pad screwed up AvD more than anything else

Do you mean the jump pad hurt avd more than any other gameplay mode, or do you mean this change is what hurt avd more than anything else? I'll agree with the former, not the latter. The jump pad pretty much devastated cornfield, but it didn't make a mind-blowing difference in dustbowl or palermo (these were the only other avd maps out at the time for 2.0). Granted, it certainly helped offense, but I noticed a somewhat larger impact in defense getting eroded in 2.1 than I did in 2.0. I think this can be directly attributed to the loss of push on sg's and additional spy abilities. Anyway my point is it's not like AvD was going great, then the jump pad ruined everything, it was many combined changes that crippled defense.

Originally Posted by MonoXideAtWork

I did not play TFC, so I have no idea how AvD is "supposed" to be played

I played a bunch of TFC so I can tell you. This is debatable, but my idea of a perfect AvD match is one where offense slowly wears down defense and moves forward, occasionally having a lucky break and/or using great tactics to achieve the goal. There's constant action, some people are really focused on the flag and advanced tactics, a lot of people are just deathmatching, but it all works. Most of all, the game gets CLOSE. The best game to me is one where you don't know who is going to win. If you feel like re-installing FF 1.0, I have a fantastic demo I recorded that shows this in action. A nice solid defense, but at the end of timer the game is really damn close. I'll be happy to send it to you.

[Firefox11]

Problem is that Soldiers and Demomen lose around 50% of HP and AP on the proccess of boosting, and boost themselves or teammates with a major delay in a way it can be prevented (kill the Demoman, etc). Other classes rely on grenade jumps (Medics included), and the Scout has a use due to his natural speed and concs in grenade bags.

With the jump pad, all the team has a free major boost without delay, not only the Scout. So instead of fighting half dead classes, you fight full healthy enemies non-stop as Defense.

[MonoXideAtWork]

Perhaps I'm thinking of more like a avanti or ksour style and not dustbowl. I always found that while they can seem epic, games on the dustbowl/anticitizen style avd (one team never plays d) turn into trite spamfests that is frusterating to play with.

I really think these maps should be designed with the jump pad in mind, because there are many people like me that are interested in tricking in the middle of a fight and thinking outside of the box to get our objective complete.

I am very concerned that we have this wonderful tool to give players a temporary speed boost (thanks to the speedcap =() and now that it has been decided that we shouldn't play ctf in pub servers any more, that this game is going to lose all the momentum that attracted me to it.

Personally, I feel that if you want to play a slower game that can give you that epic feeling of winning a fight against all odds by the skin of your teeth, play TF2. It's a very nice game and has a pace to match that style of game.
I don't feel that this game needs to be slowed down any more than it already has been. Just my 2 cents.

[Segundo]

i keep coming back to FF around every patch and keep leaving soon after, its because the game feels like you guys are trying to fix problems with duct tape and it makes the game feel unorganized, and kind of... confusing. I really think the game dynamics need to get back to basics. I like TF2 better not because it is more fun, but because its organized and linear not only in balance, but design. every class has 3 weapons(disregarding achievement weapons), each class has one direcy special ability. whether it be building a sentry, or a secondary attack with the primary gun, it just has depth in its simple design.

Visuals is one thing, i mean its a mod, it cant look as polished as a professionally developed game, but at least make the gameplay feel good.

I say every class gets 4 weapons, primary, seconday, melee, special
for instance, instead of having two weapon slots for the demomans pipes, have it in one slot, and make it togglable, like press a key, or mouse wheel up, or double tab 4, to change. the more linear the game is, the more people will like it. take my advice, or dont take my advice. learn by example, or lead by example.

the gameplay shouldnt work around the maps, the maps should work around the gameplay. in other words, dustbowl should be changed for the jumppad to work balanced, not the other way around.

[caesium]

segundo: could what you're saying be down to the fact that the default config for FF is (imo!) crap? there are basically only 2 main weapons for each class (which are the ones you want 90%+ of the time and often want to switch between v quickly). the other weapons, which do add considerable depth to the game so do deserve to be there imo, are for more specific situations so you don't need to be able to switch between as fast as possible nearly so often. the problem is that these other weapons are currently massively over-compilcating the use of the 2 main weapons just because of the default config!...

so for example, with my config right mouse button always toggles the 2 main weapons for each class. i also have q as the "class skill", such as engy-menu/medpack/small-shotty-for-soldier/det-pipes/sniper-scope/etc. this has always worked really well for me in TFC/FF. i use other stuff too ofc, but this is the basic weapon switching that i'd probably find the game v frustrating if i didn't have.

so yeah, i would really like to have a much better default config (weapon switching and gren button placement especially). would this help do you think?

[Firefox11]

Originally Posted by MonoXideAtWork

Perhaps I'm thinking of more like a avanti or ksour style and not dustbowl. I always found that while they can seem epic, games on the dustbowl/anticitizen style avd (one team never plays d) turn into trite spamfests that is frusterating to play with.

I really think these maps should be designed with the jump pad in mind, because there are many people like me that are interested in tricking in the middle of a fight and thinking outside of the box to get our objective complete.

I am very concerned that we have this wonderful tool to give players a temporary speed boost (thanks to the speedcap =() and now that it has been decided that we shouldn't play ctf in pub servers any more, that this game is going to lose all the momentum that attracted me to it.

Personally, I feel that if you want to play a slower game that can give you that epic feeling of winning a fight against all odds by the skin of your teeth, play TF2. It's a very nice game and has a pace to match that style of game.
I don't feel that this game needs to be slowed down any more than it already has been. Just my 2 cents.

In my opinion, it doesn't matter if you are playing attack-defend or invade-defend, the fact that a jumppad gives a major advantage for very little risk is still there. For instance, in Ksour TFC I had seen games where the Defense could hold CP2 for over 10 minutes pushing at the ramp that leads to CP1 or even at the CP1 area. In FF (disregarding the fact that the spawns are a bit messed up, IIRC), you only need a jumppad and then all the Offense can get past the ramp in two seconds, making any Defense in that part almost useless and making the SGs go down faster, not necessary by skill but by an Offense swarm.

It's very noticeable on Ksour, due to being a small linear map, where the jumppad makes it unbalanced. On maps like Palermo, the jumppad makes little to no difference, since the height difference between spawns and CPs and distances make the use of the jumppad somewhat balanced. That's why the jumppad is also unbalanced on Dustbowl (very linear height-wise) and not very useful on the last CP of Anticitizen, where the Offense usually has to use strategy or sheer force to cap.

Basically, on linear or small maps the jumppad is unbalanced since it leads to Offense swarming, which the Defense cannot do anything to beat other than build a massive SG farm, which isn't as effective as it seems anyways. On bigger maps, the boost the jumppad gives only cuts a bit of time, and the difference on classes speeds break the swarm, allowing the Defense to actually defend properly. I'm not saying I don't want the jumppad, I'm saying that either the building is improved (dunno, cooldown timer after a jump, for instance) or maps will have to be designed around a feature that may be changed or removed in the future so its use it's balanced.

[AfterShock]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Granted, it certainly helped offense, but I noticed a somewhat larger impact in defense getting eroded in 2.1 than I did in 2.0. I think this can be directly attributed to the loss of push on sg's and additional spy abilities.

I would agree with this. The SG definitely needs some push back. The jump pad should probably be removed via LUA for the maps that it breaks. The new HW should help AvD defense also. I personally think the spy sabotage is terrible for AvD (well, and in general.. but thats a separate debate) because it directly contravenes what you said here (which i also agree with):

my idea of a perfect AvD match is one where offense slowly wears down defense and moves forward

The idea that 1 guy can sneak past and completely annihilate the whole defense is in my eyes, dumb. (particularly when you have a new engineer who doesnt know what a spy is, and by not watching his SG he owns his entire team, causing arguments)

This idea of offense making progression is a central idea to the creation of adzone and we're constantly evolving ideas on how best to implement this.

[chilledsanity]

MonoXideAtWork: I personally like the spam, though I can see how it would be trying for some people. I like to use those as examples though because there is no middle ground. If offense wins, that's it, the game's over. Whereas in something like cornfield, the average round time could go from 12 minutes to 5 and you still have claims of balanced because the sides can be switched. And don't get me wrong , I LOVE the fast-paced action FF provides. By "slow" game, I mean one where that actual map lasts a significant amount of time, you're still fighting at a frenzied rate the entire time. TF2 definitely does not meet that criteria for me and has many things crippled about it compared to TFC and FF.

Segundo: I may be in the minority, but I personally think the asymmetrical classes are cool, it adds more variety to the game. Even if the number of weapons was perfectly even for each class, I don't think that would make a significant difference as to my enjoyment of the game.

Firefox11: Yeah Ksour gets hit HARD by jump pad, although I'd say avanti gets hit harder from weakened sentries + pyro jumps. Good observation in general though on the jump pad's role.

Aftershock: I can appreciate both sides for the sabotage thing. On one hand, it makes life harder for engineers, especially new ones, on the other hand it's really the ultimate perk for a spy + it's not really an issue for skilled engineers. While I'm certainly not discounting it, it existed in FF 1.0 and the AvD games still managed to balance out more or less. A spy being able to walk into the center of defense while cloaked without consequence is a big deal however. There can be enough chaos going on for the team to miss him entirely. Previously an sg created a "safe zone" where you knew there would be no cloaked spies. If an enemy came in disguised, then the team could get suspicious and blow up anyone approaching the flag. But I've played many games where all I had to do was run in cloaked, have a delayed reaction from the entire team once I grabbed the flag, move it forward until I died, repeat, cap, the end.

[Segundo]

Originally Posted by caesium

segundo: could what you're saying be down to the fact that the default config for FF is (imo!) crap? there are basically only 2 main weapons for each class (which are the ones you want 90%+ of the time and often want to switch between v quickly). the other weapons, which do add considerable depth to the game so do deserve to be there imo, are for more specific situations so you don't need to be able to switch between as fast as possible nearly so often. the problem is that these other weapons are currently massively over-compilcating the use of the 2 main weapons just because of the default config!...

so for example, with my config right mouse button always toggles the 2 main weapons for each class. i also have q as the "class skill", such as engy-menu/medpack/small-shotty-for-soldier/det-pipes/sniper-scope/etc. this has always worked really well for me in TFC/FF. i use other stuff too ofc, but this is the basic weapon switching that i'd probably find the game v frustrating if i didn't have.

so yeah, i would really like to have a much better default config (weapon switching and gren button placement especially). would this help do you think?

not at all, the single shot gun is innefective no matter what you believe. truth is no body uses it if they have a super shotgun. it is a bad choice to use given its low damage infliction and its tight cone of fire.

[MonoXideAtWork]

Originally Posted by Segundo

not at all, the single shot gun is innefective no matter what you believe. truth is no body uses it if they have a super shotgun. it is a bad choice to use given its low damage infliction and its tight cone of fire.

Untrue.

Single shotty has uses.

As a scout: Used to take out moving targets too fast or too far away for the nailgun.

As a soldier: for long distance on light targets

as a demo: your only hitscan weapon

as a pyro: same as demo

did I miss any?

[eternity94]

Crowbar: The lulz

[Firefox11]

Originally Posted by MonoXideAtWork

Single shotty has uses.

As a scout: Used to take out moving targets too fast or too far away for the nailgun.

As a soldier: for long distance on light targets

as a demo: your only hitscan weapon

as a pyro: same as demo

This. I can't count how many people I've killed with the single shotty as Pyro when they think they are out of range of my weapons (killing a Scout front of his base in aadvark from your own base = win). Also, IIRC Scouts die after a blue pipe and a shotty hit as Demo, so you don't have to waste two pipes.

Originally Posted by eternity94

Crowbar: The lulz

Crowbar is awesome! IC + flame + crowbar = dead humilliated Sniper =D

[Rawh]

Firefox11 is the king of crowbars on my server.
Have seen him kill so many times with it, lol

[caesium]

Originally Posted by Segundo

not at all, the single shot gun is innefective no matter what you believe. truth is no body uses it if they have a super shotgun. it is a bad choice to use given its low damage infliction and its tight cone of fire.

ummm? you didn't answer my question. i said would a better config with a simple "weapon switch" button that lets you toggle between the 2 best weapons for each class be helpful? i can list what these "2 best weapons" for each class are if you like, but i assumed that it's obvious.

so i'll ask again, would it be better if the default cfg had a simple button that toggles your 2 best weapons for each class? i know i couldn't play very well without one.

[incidentally, there ARE reasons why you'd want to use the smally shotty sometimes even if you have a normal one, but if you'd actually read my last post you'd know that that's irrelevant to what i suggested and was asking for your opinion on]

[CaLeB-]

I agree with MonoXide. Usually when my target goes too far, I pull out my single shotgun and finish them off.

[Circuitous]

No one is (or I guess should be) discussing the value of the single shotgun. Pay attention.

[Segundo]

Originally Posted by caesium

ummm? you didn't answer my question. i said would a better config with a simple "weapon switch" button that lets you toggle between the 2 best weapons for each class be helpful? i can list what these "2 best weapons" for each class are if you like, but i assumed that it's obvious.

so i'll ask again, would it be better if the default cfg had a simple button that toggles your 2 best weapons for each class? i know i couldn't play very well without one.

[incidentally, there ARE reasons why you'd want to use the smally shotty sometimes even if you have a normal one, but if you'd actually read my last post you'd know that that's irrelevant to what i suggested and was asking for your opinion on]

i did read your last post, however i dont agree that buttons are what makes FF has the low player base it has. its the game. A weapon is made to kill, yeah the primary should be strongest, but having a weapon that you cant use on its own effectivly just sucks.

to firefox: yeah shotgun kills, but i am betting you, you never tried using it as your only weapon, have fun with that. so do crowbars but you dont see people toting the crowbar. effectivly each class has only one or two weapons, primary, and super shotgun.