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Old 10-11-2010, 12:34 PM   #1
Lynus
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FF and My Thoughts

Racism. First things first - Since when did being a racist become okay? That's one of the problems with these forums, FF and our world as a whole. I know for a fucking fact that plenty of competitive players that tried FF have quit due to being called a nigger/faggot/jew/homo/retard/idiot in a pickup game. I dealt with it when I was new, but I'm not the kind of player that really takes shit like that to heart. There needs to be more rules enforced in #ff.pickup and the pickup servers(I admit I'm guilty at times!!) and there needs to be bans on this forum. Start with BridgetTron.

Events. Also more events with FF from the dev team.. either with updates on the website letting the public FF community know what's going on with it, maybe asking for suggestions or votes on certain topics, or maybe even create an Open beta group that gives access to more solid updates/features etc to get the community more involved.

Advertisiing. I know FF is free and there is no income to spend on advertising. However, I know there are some ideas floating around for this but if you're wondering why the community is so small - I think this has a lot to do with it.

Gameplay. CTF/AVD/ID/DM - We all have our favorites. Ive read everyones post in the Locked thread and... well - I just wanna put my 2cents out there and say this: FF is a competitive team game - without a team that works together in any type of gameplay, your team will lose. Now it doesnt matter much if the SentryGun is over or under powered - it works the same for both teams. Learn to play the game as its made. Don't let it play you.

All gameplay modes are fun and shouldn't be underminded by the other. I do think that AvD is the true bread and butter and backbone of our beloved team fortress game regardless of the fact that I play 99% CTF pickups on #ff.pickup. The reasons why I don't play more gamemodes is because well first off myself along with 99% of this community is banned from OT - (Squeek: Remove their server from the server list ASAP plz.k.thx.) and well honestly I try to hop on TALOS from time to time, but their Clan members rage when I beat them up so bad... and they really just dont know how to run a server. Map rotation sucks, Admins suck, Players suck. It's just too easy. They need to come to #ff.pickup once in a while and start a AVD pickup or request one. Bring your Pubstars.


And now... to quote:

Quote:
chilledsanity wrote: Besides my question is still getting sidestepped as to how these
awful changes like killing sg push happened in the first place. Sure, you can argue there are many variables to consider and that's certainly true for some changes. But eliminating sg push was countered by what exactly? It's not rocket science to know that when you nerf D hard then give O boosts, the result won't be balanced. Adding very minor boosts to D long after the fact doesn't mean much either. Even with skim capping and hit slowing, a person is still moving faster towards the goal than he would being pushed back.

So how did this happen? Was it to satisfy the pickup crowd so that things were ph balanced for scouts, the weakest class in the game? FF defense has ALWAYS felt weaker than TFC, if it was to cater to them, how did these people get by in TFC?
I'll defend the #ff.pickup community and say with near certainty that it wasn't us bitching about the sg being overpowered... the #ff.pickup community doesn't have any say in how/where the FF development process goes regardless of what you may think. There are maybe two beta testers that regular #ff.pickup... and imo that is a problem.

Now... Id like to be in the beta, I feel I have the qualities to help improve the game but my application seems to have been ignored/rejected.

Anyways, just standing up for the #ff.pickup chan. Play the game, don't let the game play you.

Quote:
chilledsanity wrote: See how long you can hold people back with the sg on an I/D or AvD map then. With soldiers and demomen ripping on it. I bet it won't last long in ksour, cornfield, dustbowl, palermo, napoli, avanti_classic, etc.
Its relative. You say the SG is weak now, but they'll tweak it now and then you'll say its TOO strong.

Bring some skilled players into the competition so you can balance the game. It's the only way. The best engy in the game isn't going to keep his TEAMS SG up and running long if the frontline sucks on KSour or any other map.

Why does everyone always bitch about the SG? I don't see a thing wrong with it... or FF for that matter - except all you people bitching about what seems to be NOTHING! Half of you don't even play the fucking game!

Quote:
Bridget wrote: Don't worry, guys. The SG is being thoroughly tested by like 5 people. Rest assured that they will be able to represent everyone.
As long as you or your nut-swinger girlfriend GT aren't one of them, I'm happy.

Quote:
Bridget Wrote : Oh, but I thought one of the design philosophies of Fortress Forever was that other players on your team should not be a detriment to your performance? In this case, if your team is not up to par, then your abilities as an Engineer are heavily reduced. Out the window goes your design goal. Not just that, but another design goal is that the game is not too team-oriented, because if you end up with a bad team, no matter how hard you try to do things individually, you won't make any progress.
Since when did design FF? Stfu.
Quote:
Bridget Wrote: If you have a bad team, then your SG will get fucking raped. If you have a good team, then it might do some good?

Yeah, makes no fucking sense. Learn how to develop a game correctly, please. Learn how to be consistent in your design goals, not just when it suits you.
Actually that makes perfect sense... and after reading 4 of your prior posts, Id like to report you for being a complete and utter dumbfuck.

Quote:
Bridget Wrote: I'd rather deathmatch, and so would everyone else.
Wrong.

Quote:
GenghisTron Wrote: Bridget's got intellectual honesty, and the balls to say what he thinks, something most people are unable to do...
It's 'Bridget has' and Nope. Oh and by the way... get off Bridget's dick Lolol. Scrub

Quote:
CHURCHMOUTH Wrote: triple edit: ban this faggot above me please or ban me
lol

Quote:
Blinky Wrote: HOLY FUCKING SHIT.

Bridget has no fucking clue what's going on because he never plays and refuses to give any ground on any thing because he's stubborn as fuck.

GhengisTron is a fucking twat because he sucks cock (literally and figuratively) and makes every argument against him look like a troll attempt (in his eyes at least).

Ricey is just a fucking terrible troll who takes trolling way too god damn seriously because man it's meant to be laid back.

Everyone's a god damn dumbass. SHUT THE FUCK UP IF YOU REFUSE TO CHANGE YOUR OPINION WHEN YOU'RE PROVEN WRONG.
Lol True.

Quote:
Ricey Wrote: Exo - learn to type....

then goes on to say to BridgetTron:
For the last month you've repeated your self over and over again, say the same old shit, while GT follows you like a stupid fucking puppy. Yea, GT you are a fucking tool. Worse then King.

and

I'd rather have a conversation with Matt then you, and all he can say is "That you br0".

and

I was the engy by the way and I was board that whole match. I made a smiley face next to my SG near the end.
Somebody skip English class? Yourself is one word. Also, learn the proper tense of then and than. Oh and you were bored.. not board.

Dumbass.
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Old 10-11-2010, 01:04 PM   #2
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This is the future of FF right here. Hey chef, u mad? Too bad you can't cry to []Zer0 here on the forums. Oh well

<chef-> bridget
<chef-> where is that faggot
<chef-> is he dense or just plain stupid?
<chef-> somebody tell him to stick that dick back in his mouth
<chef-> caz the words that come outta that cumfilled opening make no fuckin sense
<chef-> go back to highschool u fuckin tard
* chef- (~chef@da_HEF.undead.gamesurge) has left #talos

(Coming from a car salesmen, LOL. Right Bri, go back to highschool u fuckin tard!)

People like chef are the perfect embodiment of this community, they're dumb as rocks, and since there's so many of them, their idiocy is enforced by their sheer numbers.
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Old 10-11-2010, 01:07 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenghisTron View Post
This is the future of FF right here. Hey chef, u mad? Too bad you can't cry to []Zer0 here on the forums. Oh well

<chef-> bridget
<chef-> where is that faggot
<chef-> is he dense or just plain stupid?
<chef-> somebody tell him to stick that dick back in his mouth
<chef-> caz the words that come outta that cumfilled opening make no fuckin sense
<chef-> go back to highschool u fuckin tard
* chef- (~chef@da_HEF.undead.gamesurge) has left #talos

(Coming from a car salesmen, LOL. Right Bri, go back to highschool u fuckin tard!)

People like chef are the perfect embodiment of this community, they're dumb as rocks, and since there's so many of them, their idiocy is enforced by their sheer numbers.
DO I SENSE SOME BRDIGET DEFENSE FORCE?
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Old 10-11-2010, 01:07 PM   #4
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I kinda agree with those points, racism is really bad no matter what, and seems a aceptable thing to call nigger 24/7-

About the events thing I totally agree, the website and news are updated from like year to year oO, just get a new dev responsable for that.

About gameplay, i told this some times already, make the ctf maps more enjoyable, make ctf lua like avd for example like ksour, 10 players or less remove blue flag, and limit classes like no heavy on blue and no scout on red, after x caps switch the teams over, so would work like a avd map, that seems to work in pub, hire bridget to do that.

About map rotation, i supose thats up to server owners always, but if server owners go to sourcemod page, theres some plugins for dinamic map vote, wich helps a lot on that.

About the sgs i say again the engeneer have pseudo pipes = dispenser, 3 grens a super shotgun, a laser gun and a auto kill machine.
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Old 10-11-2010, 01:12 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenghisTron View Post
..., and since there's so many of them, their idiocy is enforced by their sheer numbers.
lol the irony.
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Old 10-11-2010, 01:12 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by moosh View Post
DO I SENSE SOME BRDIGET DEFENSE FORCE?
Nah, I'm just pointing out how mad and sexually frustrated people like chef get when Bridget is able to string together a cogent argument. So far almost (there's been a few, to their credit) none of the people who cry about Bridget have actually debated him, instead they resort to ad homs, because they're too stupid to debate with someone who doesn't rely on logical fallacies and massive leaps in logic.
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Old 10-11-2010, 01:20 PM   #7
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lol the irony.
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Old 10-11-2010, 01:25 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynus
Since when did being a racist become okay? That's one of the problems with these forums, FF and our world as a whole.
I agree, I hate how so many of the posts devolve into childish attacks instead of focusing on any legitimate points the person may (or may not) have. People like GenghisTron may make a legitimate, well thought out and written point in one post, then immediately follow-up with 3 or 4 posts where he's outright trolling. Or how lately beta members seem to reply back with just hate talk rather than focus on legitimate points. I don't get it. Discussion here feels like flopping around in a cesspool. Maybe it's a reaction to feeling helpless to change anything and/or having counterarguments by people who never explain or reason their points, or maybe they're all just maladjusted dicks, I don't know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynus
I'll defend the #ff.pickup community and say with near certainty that it wasn't us bitching about the sg being overpowered...
In all fairness, the pickup balance explanation is just a theory I had. That's the only reason I've received that made any sense (a weaker defense makes sense if all you have is medics and scouts on O), but I believe you if say that's not the case. However if that's true, that makes me wonder where the hell this change came from. I believe CrazyCarl was saying something like this would make it easier for new players to cap, which would bring in more people, but it seems like such a dramatic change for what sounds like flawed reasoning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynus
Its relative. You say the SG is weak now, but they'll tweak it now and then you'll say its TOO strong.
I'd be amazed if that happened. I've always felt the sg is weaker compared to TFC, even since 1.0. It's never had splash protection, which has made it harder to keep up. In terms of stopping power, I thought it was fine in 1.0 through 1.11. The detection got a little better in 2.0, but the health was lowered and the splash protection was still never implemented. Right now it's still weaker than any other TF game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynus
Bring some skilled players into the competition so you can balance the game. It's the only way. The best engy in the game isn't going to keep his TEAMS SG up and running long if the frontline sucks on KSour or any other map.

Why does everyone always bitch about the SG? I don't see a thing wrong with it... or FF for that matter - except all you people bitching about what seems to be NOTHING! Half of you don't even play the fucking game!
People accuse me of repeating points, which is true, but this is the reason why, right here. Someone like you comes along who hasn't heard my points, makes an argument based on that, so I have to repeat them all over. So here goes:

The team / skill argument: This is partially true. A single engineer cannot stop a army. That's never been the case, nor should it be. However around 2.1 it got to the point where an engy maintaining his sg couldn't stop ONE good person running at it, not using any subterfuge or clever tactics. That didn't happen in TFC. Here's another way to look at it.

TFC: Had a strong defense, AvD games were pretty balanced, it was great

FF 1.x: Had a pretty good defense. I thought it could have had a small boost, but it was still a lot of fun and you had a lot of close games.

FF 2.0: Offense is given lots of buffs. Defense is slightly worse in some areas, slightly better in others. In general it's getting harder to play D.

FF 2.1 - 2.3: Offense receives even more buffs. Defense receives MAJOR nerfs, balance becomes horrible. Unless the entire opposing team is incomeptent, it's like picking who is on the losing team v. the winning team.

FF 2.4x: D receives some very small buffs, but still puts it way behind where it was in 1.0, leaving balance still skewed.


So the short version: Offense received a bunch of buffs, and defense was nerfed heavily. All skill level being equal, that means things have become unbalanced. If you have equal skilled players on both teams, defense will generally lose. Skill should be a two-way street. Why should changes to the game require more skill of me if I play defense, but less skill if I play offense?


There's nothing wrong with sg argument: To be fair, the sg is not the entire defense, I agree. However it plays a very important role in it. Considering how the hwguy was ALSO nerfed, and demoman has less blue pipe range, the sg should be a cornerstone more than ever, but it's not. I'm not just basing this just on my opinion. I've played hundreds of AvD games in FF over the patches and I've noticed a trend. In 2.0 defense started getting harder. They would win less games and overall it just felt easier to play on offense overall. You can attribute this to speeds, jump pads, pyro jumps, less sg health, less sg push, take your pick. There's no one cause here.

In 2.1 I saw a DRAMATIC shift in wins/loses. In AvD maps like dustbowl, unless they were COMPLETELY incompetent (running the flag the wrong way, hopping in circles in the spawn, etc.), Offense started winning EVERY FUCKING TIME. If I played on offense, we won fast as hell. If I played on D, we lost, still kind of fast. Something happened here that I just couldn't keep them back anymore. In I/D games like ksour, cornfield, later avanti, the rounds would go ridiculously fast. The entire ROUND would be over in 3 minutes, so that's less that a minute per cap. That's not fun. I like close, drawn out games, not insta-wins, doesn't matter what side I'm on.

I wasn't basing this on a game or two, I was recording demos of dozens and dozens of games I was finding O winning over 90% of the time in AvD with time to spare on the clock. That ceases being just my opinion at that point, that's empirical evidence.
So I looked at the changelog again. What happened there? Minor boosts to scout and sniper, big boost to spy, minor nerfs to demoman and soldier, absolutely crippling push change to the sentry gin. So a sentry was no doing even less damage and had less push than a nailgun. That mean instead of stopping flag runners or assailants in their tracks, they were capping or running right up to the sg to destroy it. That made defense buckle and things have been shit every since. 2.4 helped a LITTLE, but it's still far worse than it was in the past or in TFC.

Short version: What's wrong with the sentry gun? It's been weakened dramatically, doesn't stop attackers/flagrunners effectively, so combine this with other weakened defense classes, it means game balance for AvD I/D is fucked.

Last edited by chilledsanity; 10-11-2010 at 01:39 PM.
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Old 10-11-2010, 01:36 PM   #9
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chilledsanity I kinda agree that the sg sucks on AVD maps, but the AVD maps in pubs are like 10% of the maps played, so im more concerned about CTF pub.
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Old 10-11-2010, 01:45 PM   #10
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chilledsanity I kinda agree that the sg sucks on AVD maps, but the AVD maps in pubs are like 10% of the maps played, so im more concerned about CTF pub.
Well hey, I've never advocated screwing over one gamemode to fix another. The question to ask then is would increasing push on the sg HARM pub ctf significantly? If so, why? Maybe there are other solutions.

Also as for 10% played, there's 2 ways of looking at that. One is that most FF players don't care about AvD. The other is that the current changes have driven away most of the AvD fans, so that's CTF is mostly just what's left.

Last edited by chilledsanity; 10-11-2010 at 01:46 PM.
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Old 10-11-2010, 02:15 PM   #11
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Im pretty sure the fact people dont play more avd have anything to do with sgs push or whatever, people just prefer CTF gameplay, I personally think AVD even with your broken Sg works better then CTF pub, At least AVD is organized, CTF put its more like a giant dm arena .p
The only AVD map that could beat a map like ff_aarvdark or ff_destroy in player votes is Ksour classic.

Last edited by zE; 10-11-2010 at 02:17 PM.
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Old 10-11-2010, 02:52 PM   #12
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Well again, it's hard to say. AvD was very popular in TFC, you had tons of dustbowl-only servers, or ones with only avanti, warpath, etc. Also the numbers for FF on launch were enormous. Unfortunately I think TF2 has stolen most of the would-be AvD players. That has its own different set of problems though.
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Old 10-11-2010, 03:22 PM   #13
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With regards to the SG

Push - there has to be a happy medium. I have faith in the dev team that they will get there... whether by increasing the push amount a bit, or making it turn faster, or adding a new affect maybe like a shield for 3 seconds effect like in Halo Reach... but one thing is for sure: I'm glad that we agree that the engineer and his teams SG aren't the only part of the defense.

IMO - A good scout or medic should be able to conc into a flagroom or around a SG and pull off a nice offensive flag grab/toss without being immediately nailed to the wall.

Quote:
Well again, it's hard to say. AvD was very popular in TFC, you had tons of dustbowl-only servers, or ones with only avanti, warpath, etc. Also the numbers for FF on launch were enormous. Unfortunately I think TF2 has stolen most of the would-be AvD players. That has its own different set of problems though.
I wouldn't mind a 24/7 AVD server.
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Old 10-11-2010, 03:49 PM   #14
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With regards to the SG

Push - there has to be a happy medium. I have faith in the dev team that they will get there... whether by increasing the push amount a bit, or making it turn faster, or adding a new affect maybe like a shield for 3 seconds effect like in Halo Reach... but one thing is for sure: I'm glad that we agree that the engineer and his teams SG aren't the only part of the defense.
You have more faith than me. In my eyes, the happy medium was almost there in 1.0, then it was ruined by the new dev team later on and has been left that way for about 2 years. They may surprise me and fix it for 2.5, but two years to fix a problem that they introduced in the first place is a hell of a lag time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynus
IMO - A good scout or medic should be able to conc into a flagroom or around a SG and pull off a nice offensive flag grab/toss without being immediately nailed to the wall.
Question: was it possible to do this in TFC? If so, I don't understand the arguments to make it weaker than that for FF.

Last edited by chilledsanity; 10-11-2010 at 03:51 PM.
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Old 10-11-2010, 04:38 PM   #15
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i hate to be the short poster here but i am convinced that defense is easier now than it ever was in fortress forever. do u remember when there was no bhop cap? 2.0 maybe that was much harder on d than it is now but i dunno im just glad bridget is not posting and same with genghis
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Old 10-11-2010, 04:46 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynus View Post
Racism. First things first - Since when did being a racist become okay? That's one of the problems with these forums, FF and our world as a whole. I know for a fucking fact that plenty of competitive players that tried FF have quit due to being called a nigger/faggot/jew/homo/retard/idiot in a pickup game. I dealt with it when I was new, but I'm not the kind of player that really takes shit like that to heart. There needs to be more rules enforced in #ff.pickup and the pickup servers(I admit I'm guilty at times!!) and there needs to be bans on this forum. Start with BridgetTron.
Big fucking deal. You know how many times I've been called a faggot? I don't get upset about it because I'm not a bitch like you. Don't try to shoehorn some bullshit like "I'm offended at this racism." in desperately trying to get people banned, because if it were actually fairly considered, everyone would get banned, not just two people whom you have a e-crush on.

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Events. Also more events with FF from the dev team.. either with updates on the website letting the public FF community know what's going on with it, maybe asking for suggestions or votes on certain topics, or maybe even create an Open beta group that gives access to more solid updates/features etc to get the community more involved.
Yeah, that's cool, spend months with your pickup hoodlums talking shit about my suggestions, then come out of the woodwork to reiterate my suggestion trying to pawn it off as your own. Oh well, though, I ain't even mad. Maybe the devs will consider it this time 'cause it's coming from someone in the competitive community. Lol

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Originally Posted by Lynus View Post
Advertisiing. I know FF is free and there is no income to spend on advertising. However, I know there are some ideas floating around for this but if you're wondering why the community is so small - I think this has a lot to do with it.
As I said above, if you are going to be appealing to the competitive community (a niche group of gamers) then why go through all of the efforts of advertising to people who will obviously be casual and not fit in that niche? Not only do you waste their time but you waste your own time. I think FF should just retire to #ff.pickup because that's how it has been running for some time now. This website, the wiki, all of that is an illusion that this game is accessible to people, but it's really not. Either advertise a game that is accessible or don't waste (your own but mostly) other people's time.


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well honestly I try to hop on TALOS from time to time, but their Clan members rage when I beat them up so bad... and they really just dont know how to run a server. Map rotation sucks, Admins suck, Players suck. It's just too easy. They need to come to #ff.pickup once in a while and start a AVD pickup or request one. Bring your Pubstars.
That's odd, all I seem to see from our chat logs are pickup faggots crying because someone is killing them with Pyro or upset because someone is deviating from the pickup standard. There's also the fact that almost every pickup player who joins our server spends their time trolling beginners who play there. In fact, I think some of our members have logs from #ff.pickup where you people specifically say 'Let's jump on Talos server and troll'. About this whining, it all stems from the freedom we give our players. We let 'em play the way they want. Wanna run offensive heavy? Sure, that's your choice. This creates a challenge to the pickup player, who now has to deal with people who aren't restricted or regulated with the PICKUP STANDARD to make his job easier, and he either blatantly rages 'cause he's getting rolled or leaves to avoid getting stomped too hard by pubbers. Pure motherfuckin' magic.

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I'll defend the #ff.pickup community and say with near certainty that it wasn't us bitching about the sg being overpowered... the #ff.pickup community doesn't have any say in how/where the FF development process goes regardless of what you may think. There are maybe two beta testers that regular #ff.pickup... and imo that is a problem.
You guys don't have to have a direct say. Most of the developers all partake in your niche community, so naturally they will develop the game for you. There's no other explanation for why the Sentry Gun was nerfed, unless the developers have no clue what they are doing and just randomly change values patch to patch to simulate busy work.

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Anyways, just standing up for the #ff.pickup chan. Play the game, don't let the game play you.
Anyways, just standing up for what is killing Fortress Forever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynus View Post
As long as you or your nut-swinger girlfriend GT aren't one of them, I'm happy.
If GT were my girlfirend, I'd be one step ahead of you in life.

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Originally Posted by Lynus View Post
Since when did design FF? Stfu. Actually that makes perfect sense... and after reading 4 of your prior posts, Id like to report you for being a complete and utter dumbfuck.
You fail to understand my point. A design goal of Fortress Forever is that you should never be a detriment to your team, or your team should never be a detriment to you. Your individual actions should only be detrimental to yourself. However, the Engineer is set up in a way that breaks this design goal. People like to bring up pickups and team games as justification that the SG is okay. The only reason it's ok in these scenarios is because a team is guarding it. So, that means, how good your SG does is relative to how good your team does. If your team does good, then your SG does good. If your team does bad, then your SG does bad, which breaks that design goal of Fortress Forever.

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Originally Posted by Lynus View Post
It's 'Bridget has' and Nope. Oh and by the way... get off Bridget's dick Lolol. Scrub
Lol, you mad?

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Originally Posted by Lynus View Post
Somebody skip English class? Yourself is one word. Also, learn the proper tense of then and than. Oh and you were bored.. not board.

Dumbass.
Yourself is a compound word to begin with, so it can be written as 'your self' as it was originally. It's like the words 'everyone' and 'everybody'. They can be written as 'every one' and 'every body' because that's how they were written formally before people tacked the two words together for informal conversation. Also, 'than' and 'then' are not tenses of a root word; They are two different words all together. Last, 'dumbass' is one word, so putting a period behind it is improper. Good try though!

(fucking retard)
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Old 10-11-2010, 04:53 PM   #17
Crazycarl
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I don't think you people are familiar with the point of closing a thread. If a topic is closed, you don't continue the flame war again in a new thread. Anyone who tries to get around the moderation of this forum will recieve infractions.
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