Dear FF,

[chilledsanity]

I do agree that pointing to traditional TF elements has become rather meaningless because the results are over the place:

Some traditions kept:
-armor system
-medic not intended as a healer
-sniping system
-bunny hopping
-some weak weapons
-limp wrist grenade system

Some traditions removed:
-Strong sg
-Strong hwguy
-medic infection spread
-gas grenades
-caltrops
-demoman effective choke range


Plus the dev team has stated multiple times that they want to move beyond the TFC formula, which calls into question what changes are acceptable to still maintain the TF spirit.

[Born_In_Xixax]

Originally Posted by Bridget

FF is a lot like signing up for a language course, and instead of walking in to the first lesson on Monday morning, you step into a room full of fluent speakers and the teacher says "Okay, figure out what they're saying."

This captures a long-standing problem with TF that has mostly been un-addressed. While there are certainly some things that can be done to simplify the game for everyone without dumbing it down, there are also a large number of aspects that do require deep knowledge, experience and skill to successfully execute. For those who have the requisite experience, these aspects add to the incredible depth and challenge that IMHO TF has over many other more 'accessible' games ** spit ** Counterstrike **spit**.

However, when a beginning player attempts to have some fun playing with a server full of veterans, the disadvantage is overwhelming, leading to frustration and a quick disconnect. I might say vice versa, that a pickup full of veterans will also experience frustration when trying to deal with inexperienced players. It's not fair to either category of player.

The complexity and learning curve are not inherently bad - as they constitute the challenge/reward of the game - but putting the sharks in with the guppies (or the 4th string freshman in with the varsity, depending on your POV) IS bad.

There are two general solutions I can see: equalize the playing field, or segregate the players. These forums are full of debate about the former, and I think there are some gains and compromises that need to be made there, (and some dumbing-down and oversimplification that need to be resisted) but in the end I believe there will always be an irreconcilable dichotomy between a deep game and easy game. Sort of a continuum between chess, checkers, and tic-tac-toe.

What I would like to see is a way to gradually acclimate the new player to the game, providing new and deeper challenges as he gains skill and experience. There are lots of examples in other games of how this is done, and I think they are one of the core sources of their popularity. Consider WoW, the Halo ladders, and - yes - CS/TFC leagues as role models.

Just because I like to think about it, my suggestion for FF would look like this:

- 3 servers: one configured for 32 players; one configured for two instances of 16 players; and one configured for 4 instances of 8 players.
- Only the 32 man server is public and advertised on the steam server list
- The 32 man server plays big noob friendly maps: dustbowl (a fixed version, in my fantasies), ksour, palermo, etc.
- Once the round ends, either the top 16 players by FF points or by being on the winning side 'advance', i.e. are redirected to the 'winners bracket' 16 man instance, the lower 16 are redirected to the 'losers bracket' 16 man instances
- The 16 man instances play an 8v8 map: destroy, monkey, openfire, etc. The top 8 (again by points or by winning side) advance to the 'finals', while the others are redirected to one of the other three 8 man instances for 2nd/3rd/4th place matches
- A final 4v4 OvD format game is played on each of the 8 man instances. Or alternatively two of the matches do 4v4 OvD and there is one 'consolation' 8v8 for the noobs who may not be up to following the 4v4 format

IMHO all this is theoretically do-able via server-side scripting - I've seen all of these capabilities demonstrated via various HL mode servers of the years - and has many benefits:

- There is tangible reward and prestige for winning. This will greatly encourage offense, effective defense and competition towards map goals. There will be less DVD and turtling. There will be more cooperation and teamwork. Game play (vs mindless death match or sniping) will mean something more than it does.
- As a noob, you will occasionally play alongside more skilled players and learn things, but you will still always have similarly skilled players around you
- As a veteran, you will occasionally have the opportunity to 'pwn' some noobs, but you will still always be continually challenged by increasingly skilled opponents
- Maps will vary from 'epically chaotic' to 'intense and intimate', each round will be something different

With enough players, this scheme can scale indefinitely across multiple servers, where every round won is a step into a higher plane of game play, every loss is a drop back into bigger, more casual noob fests.

Unfortunately when the player base barely breaks 8v8 at any given point in time like it does in FF now, none of this makes much sense. Perhaps combined with a steamworks launch and more new players, a feature like this could catch on. If I had time and energy I would build this out as an amature+pro CS ladder system.

(If anyone is just super-inspired by this, I might be persuaded to help via design, coding, config or possibly hosting a server for a bit)

[Rawh]

Oooh look another flame topic. And there's a shitload of trolls reacting. I pity you all for being so damn stupid

[elwood]

[Bridget]

Someone disagrees with me. They must be a troll.

[GenghisTron]

If actions speak louder than words, who should we take seriously? People like Churchmouth who claims he cares about the game and the community, but his actions dictate otherwise, or people who say they want to help the community grow, and have taken steps towards helping the community grow?

The trolls are certainly out in force, but implying Bridget is a troll is laughable. I mean seriously, it's like faggots who talk about Loose Change and the supposed 9/11 'inside job'. Conspiracy theories like 'DA GUBAMINT DID 9/11 CUZ THEY r JEWZ LOLOLOL' or 'Bridget is a trololololololoooooooooo' can be debunked pretty simply. What is the motivation? What motivation is there for Bridget to sit there and type wall 'o texts if his only intent is to troll. You could say that that's the natural state of trolls, but why would Bridget type wall 'o texts that only 4 people will read? Surely the pickup community couldn't be asked to read more than a sentence or two, so what purpose does it serve for Bridget to supposedly 'troll', unless maybe he genuinely cares about this mod. I guess he started the Talos Beginner Community to troll too? OH BOY LET ME GET THE TIN FOIL HAT OUT OF THE CLOSET.

[WiFiDi]

Originally Posted by GenghisTron

If actions speak louder than words, who should we take seriously? People like Churchmouth who claims he cares about the game and the community, but his actions dictate otherwise, or people who say they want to help the community grow, and have taken steps towards helping the community grow?

The trolls are certainly out in force, but implying Bridget is a troll is laughable. I mean seriously, it's like faggots who talk about Loose Change and the supposed 9/11 'inside job'. Conspiracy theories like 'DA GUBAMINT DID 9/11 CUZ THEY r JEWZ LOLOLOL' or 'Bridget is a trololololololoooooooooo' can be debunked pretty simply. What is the motivation? What motivation is there for Bridget to sit there and type wall 'o texts if his only intent is to troll. You could say that that's the natural state of trolls, but why would Bridget type wall 'o texts that only 4 people will read? Surely the pickup community couldn't be asked to read more than a sentence or two, so what purpose does it serve for Bridget to supposedly 'troll', unless maybe he genuinely cares about this mod. I guess he started the Talos Beginner Community to troll too? OH BOY LET ME GET THE TIN FOIL HAT OUT OF THE CLOSET.

this i find an interesting topic why because people these days really don't know what a troll is anymore. its sad look at steam forum trolls aren't trolls and bad trolls get all attention. Bridget isn't a troll sure he can't make maps but he certainly isn't a troll sometimes he'll use intimidation tactics to try to prove his point, but hes not a troll. and if he was your pointing him out would make you the idiot.

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by GenghisTron

I guess he started the Talos Beginner Community to troll too? OH BOY LET ME GET THE TIN FOIL HAT OUT OF THE CLOSET.

The irony of this is that the Talos Beginner Community never took off (despite constantly getting requests from our public players to play in organized matches on our private server) because pickup fags were constantly on our dicks trying to get in to play with us. When we did allow them to play, they treated the public players like shit, which ruined everything. Lol

[GenghisTron]

Originally Posted by Bridget

The irony of this is that the Talos Beginner Community never took off (despite constantly getting requests from our public players to play in organized matches on our private server) because pickup fags were constantly on our dicks trying to get in to play with us. When we did allow them to play, they treated the public players like shit, which ruined everything. Lol

Obviously that makes you the troll. WELL, IT'S SETTLED THEN.

[Bridget]

>:

[moosh]

It's just a video game.

[Bridget]

Yeah, I think we all know it's a video game. You're implying, however, that I should value video games as you do. I'll make my own choices and assign my own values, thanks. Remember, it's just [insert one of moosh's hobbies here]. No need to be passionate about what you're passionate about. Hurp a' durp

[KubeDawg]

Bridget, it's just a video game.

[Bridget]

Thanks for informing me of your values.

[Dexter]

Hurp a' durp

[KubeDawg]

Originally Posted by Dexter

Hurp a' durp

[Dexter]

*pulls out pipe for story time*

back in my day, kids would be willing to learn how to play a game. not this expect to be competent from the get go crap! so soft..

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by Dexter

*pulls out pipe for story time*

back in my day, kids would be willing to learn how to play a game. not this expect to be competent from the get go crap! so soft..

*Bitch slaps Dexter*

Back in my day, kids knew when to shut the fuck up, or they'd be taken out back for a beaten.

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by Dexter

Hurp a' durp

While I know Dexter said this, it's this particular kind of reply(along with the usual name calling, and sarcastic nonsense) that have branded Bridget a troll. Yes, Bridget makes some points, but they end up buried at the first "hurp a' durp" flipant comment he makes.

[Dexter]

Originally Posted by Iggy

While I know Dexter said this, it's this particular kind of reply(along with the usual name calling, and sarcastic nonsense) that have branded Bridget a troll. Yes, Bridget makes some points, but they end up buried at the first "hurp a' durp" flipant comment he makes.

yeah just irony trolling