2.42 Teaser

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by Trailer

I'm interested in the floating flag change, instead of avoiding the water, it will actually be beneficial to toss in the water for conced water skipping on certain maps. One small step for offense, one giant leap for defense. I like all the changes except for the sollies new grenades, I thought the nail grenade was more useful because you couldn't predict its trajectory like the laser. The laser grenade seems pretty easy to avoid for a skilled scout and does it not explode at the end? The explosion was key.

While the nail grenade was effective, it wasn't an interactive or fun mechanic. In fact, it was best used blindly, so that your "target" runs into the explosion, not the nails. This made most deaths from the nail grenade happen from its explosion, which had barely anything to do with how the soldier used the nail grenade, it just happened to explode in the targets face (and there was no real way to tell when it was going to explode). These explosion deaths, and correct me if I'm wrong, were frustrating and never felt deserved, because the thrower didn't actually do anything to deserve it (besides happen to throw it in the place you were going to be), and it felt like there wasn't really anything you did wrong; you got killed more or less by random chance (if you hadn't gone through it, you would have wasted time, perhaps unnecessarily, and if you did go through it and it didn't explode, you'd be fine. So, its fairly logical to always try to go through nail grenades unless you know for certain that they will explode).

That sort of spam-to-be-most-effective grenade isn't all that great, especially when the victims never feel that their deaths were deserved. The laser grenade is similar to the nail grenade, but also entirely different. It does damage in an area, making people want to avoid it. But, the damage is dodgable if you behave in a certain manor. This creates an interesting dynamic, because if there is no one around, you can dodge the damage fairly easily (meaning spamming is less effective, and damage from it always feels deserved [you failed to dodge it well]); but, if there is someone around (say the soldier that threw the grenade), your movement as you dodge the damage becomes MUCH more predictable, making it easier for the soldier to hit you. Once you get into that loop, there is a lot of depth and interactivity (avoiding damage makes me easier to hit with rockets, should I take some damage from the laser grenade? should I hang back and wait? etc...) All are viable and potentially logical choices, dependent on both the situation and the actions of each player. That is what we are looking for.

Anything can be made effective. We want to try to make our mechanics effective, interactive, deep, and fun wherever possible (and jump roping laser grenades is rather fun ).

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by Trailer

Hammock, don't you think the defense could use a boost in this game?

It all depends on the map really, the most popular maps are usually also the most O friendly. If defense got a boost to make them more competant on those maps, the other ones where they're D friendly makes them impossible.

Plus a "boost" to defending a cap point by just adding another person who's going to stand on top of it, isn't really a boost soo much as a lame annoyance.

Like I said, I myself am looking forward to this new HW, I see soo many situations where he'll be way more viable.

@squeek - How do these new lasers work on the verticle factor? Yes the randomness of the explosion was frustrating, but it was effective, because even if a concer chose to go over a nail grenade it could still explode and either kill/disrupt his movements.

Picture if you will openfire water tunnel. A nail grenade tossed there could stop incoming concing scouts. How would the laser grenade be effective there? Because the nails were unpredictable, usually a scout would still make his attempt to conc over them and if it didn't explode he got through. If we knew when the nails were to actually explode, almost any competant scout could adjust. But if lasers don't explode, the scout will just determine whether the lasers are high or low, and just go over/under them.

The lasers do seem aimed more strongly at targeting normal walking people. That is unless even getting slightly clipped by one will almost insta kill a scout.

It'd be cool if the solly could select whether he wants his lasers to rotate vertically, or horizontally. Because a horizontal plane isn't always practical.

[squeek.]

That is potentially a good point, Hammock. The laser grenade is not great at killing people that are going to be moving vertically. It might be something that needs addressing, we'll just have to see what happens when the patch gets released.

[Elmo]

Well the HW should be better at air targets now and that could compensate and be something to consider when playing in teams. Especially in that position with his overpressure to push enemys back.

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by Elmo

Well the HW should be better at air targets now and that could compensate and be something to consider when playing in teams. Especially in that position with his overpressure to push enemys back.

Ya, I haven't discounted the HW, I really look forward to trying him out. I like to play a lot of openfire/destroy 2v2/3v3. It's usually solly's and demos, because they're more mobile and when it came right down to it a HW can make kills, but usually not before the scout has accomplished the goal of hitting the button, or touching/tossing the flag. But with that burts effect he can effectively do the same thing a solly can do with a rocket.

Question about that time delay 2ndary nade of the HW. It looked like in the video it only effected players and not projectiles. Does the player exit the time delay at the same speed he entered it? And what if he had a HH conc go off inside of it? Would he exit the bubble at his new conc speed? Or a predetermined speed?

[Elmo]

Originally Posted by Hammock

Question about that time delay 2ndary nade of the HW. It looked like in the video it only effected players and not projectiles.

Correct.. else it wouldn't be too useful if it slowed everything else down. The idea is it gives a larger time winow for defence to attack someone in that spot, if we slowed down rockets and such it wouldn't have that effect. We'll just say the slowfield gren works on biological organisms

Originally Posted by Hammock

Does the player exit the time delay at the same speed he entered it?

Yep

Originally Posted by Hammock

And what if he had a HH conc go off inside of it? Would he exit the bubble at his new conc speed? Or a predetermined speed?

New conc speed I'm pretty damned sure. Though squeek might have to confirm a few details there.

*Edit* Now i wait for squeeks much better worded reply

[squeek.]

The slowfield only affects players and it puts people inside it in slow motion. All movement is the same (your speed on the speedometer doesn't change as you move through it); you are literally in slow motion.

EDIT: Elmo beat me!

[Hammock]

So theoretically, you could (Use ff_destroy to visualize):

1. conc from yard into the base
2. prime a 2nd conc asap
3. just as you enter the time delay (top ramps) it goes off
4. prime your 3rd while inside
5. Exit Time delay at warp speed towards flag
6. Blast out of flag room with your 3rd conc the instant you touch the flag.

Theoretically this seems possible the way you just described how it works. If it were to ever happen.... well seems like 1 in a million chance on its own, and would take lots of practice with the HW to time his nade perfectly if you were to actually try and plan that.

Sounds fun though

[squeek.]

Yes. Think of the co-op skill map possibilities!

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by squeek.

Yes. Think of the co-op skill map possibilities!

I have been, it was just easier to lay the scenario out in a well known map. Very interesting and cool

[oaties]

Originally Posted by Trailer

I thought the nail grenade was more useful because you couldn't predict its trajectory like the laser. The laser grenade seems pretty easy to avoid for a skilled scout and does it not explode at the end? The explosion was key.

I agree! God damn those skilled players! You shouldn't be able to avoid something with skill!

[Iggy]

Actually, as a long time Soldier player, I really like the laser grenade over the nail grenade. The nail nade had a semi-random direction to the nails, but they were pretty much useless, unless wedged under an SG. They basicly did nothing for what they were originally intended: Area Denial. The Laser Nade may be predictable, but the damage dealt is higher, PLUS a solly can always "bounce" a target into the path of the laser. It leaves an incoming O player vulnerable to attack while they try to avoid the beams. The damage that the beam deals balances out the lost "explosion". In all seriousness, this is my favorite change of them all.

[s0undch4s3r]

Looks Delicious. I can't wait to check this out when it's out. Good job Devs.

[chilledsanity]

11-16-09:

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

I don't think defense got much of anything to counter these abilities. So if jump pads were added, but engineers got the ability to build a slow motion force field, THEN that might fall under category B.

1-26-10:

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

If you want more movement options, I think the natural answer is to have more defense counters. We have all these new offensive capabilities and defense got almost nothing. So we have jump pads? Fine, give engineers (or another D class) "slowing fields" to compensate. Pyros can fly all over the map? Fine, lets add a new trap that helps catch more players flying in. Or add some additional buffs to the sg. Or add a new buildable to act as a temporary barrier towards offensive players. ANYTHING.

02-02-10:

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Add a buildable "slowing field" where if enemy players pass through it, they move twice as slow.

04-25-10:

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Why not give a D class an ability to counter this? Give the engineer the ability to build temporary barriers or a small slow-motion or repulsor field, anything along those lines.

07-18-10:

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

The jump pad gave O a clear advantage without giving D anything in return. I've suggested several times that engineers could maybe build a "slowing field" to deploy in areas or have outright destroyable barriers they could build (like sandbags) as possible counters to O's new movement abilities. At the time, there was so much denial that balance problems even existed, these were shot down or ignored. Maybe the atmosphere is more open to suggestions now.

09-25-10:

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Remove jumppads OR create a new destroyable barrier that ng's can build OR some sort of slow motion field ng's can build

yay

[reaper18]

lol see chilled? Sometimes the wall listens

[Elmo]

07-29-2009 - Dev forum

Originally Posted by Green Mushy

Another idea, but this is very separate, is the infamous "slow field" as his gren2. I have always felt that two classes having mirvs(and just mirvs in general!) is dumb. A very obvious lack of creativity and reinstating old tfc nostalgia for no purpose. The intention of the slow field grenade, to replace the heavy's mirv, is to give him a grenade that he can use to act as an area denial tool, to make players have to move around it, or just make decisions based on the placement of this thing. Because if a player enters it, they will be very slow, and become cannon fodder for the HW. It will also compliment all the other classes on D, because if a demo dies, or something like that, he can throw a gren2 down there to try and hold it off until the demo returns. Or if the demo is alive, a gren placed in a conc path near the trap will help the demo hit some important dets. I guess all im really trying to say is that if we replace his mirv with a grenade that compliments himself and other classes, we can turn HW into a class that has more uses and is based on strategic decisions and timing, and not just aim. And the slow field is just an idea that has been kicking around for a while that i believe plays to the design premise that FF is supposed to evolve from TFC.

And he said it was infamous then. So I wonder when the idea first spawned.

Originally Posted by squeek.

Revision: 11351
Author: squeek.
Date: 3:15:04 PM, Sunday, September 20, 2009
Message:
Kicking off 2.5 testing with some big changes.

- Nailgren replaced with vert grenade (zero damage, pushes people vertically, stops horizontal movement)
- HW MIRV replaced with a slowfield grenade (puts people inside of it in slow motion, they retain their speed through it; the closer you are to the center the slower you go)
- HW "overpressure" attack2 added (zero damage, pushes people away from the HW similar to a conc, has a cooldown)
- High friction pipes put back in
----
Modified : /basemod/trunk/bin/client.dll
Modified : /basemod/trunk/bin/server.dll
Added : /basemod/trunk/scripts/ff_grenade_slowfield.txt
Added : /basemod/trunk/scripts/ff_grenade_vert.txt
Modified : /basemod/trunk/scripts/ff_playerclass_hwguy.txt
Modified : /basemod/trunk/scripts/ff_playerclass_soldier.txt

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by reaper18

lol see chilled? Sometimes the wall listens

Well, apparently not, as it was independent of me.

Originally Posted by Elmo

And he said it was infamous then. So I wonder when the idea first spawned.

Well a search for any of the terms "force field" "slow field" "slowing field" "slow motion field" only returns posts that I made in the public forum. I guess the idea came up independently in the dev forums as well.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Well a search for any of the terms "force field" "slow field" "slowing field" "slow motion field" only returns posts that I made in the public forum. I guess the idea came up independently in the dev forums as well.

It was an idea trepid_jon came up with I believe back when we were testing 2.1. It got talked about internally for a while and was finally put in for testing once it was figured out that Source has the capability for slow motion entities built in.

[chilledsanity]

Well regardless, I think it's great (though I still think it would be cool if ng had a new buildable). It feels like something that should have gone hand in hand back with the 2.0 additions.

[squeek.]

It was initially an engineer buildable idea, but it fits extremely well with the HW and its nice to get rid of the MIRV overlap.

Engineering getting a new buildable sometime in the future seems likely, but we don't have many ideas.