Defensive Scout

[o_ekim]

Originally Posted by Nezumi

C) I'm sure a scout could be effective to the point of being worthwhile in certain very specific situations.

More effective than a soldier of HWGuy in the choke point, actually damaging stuff?

Originally Posted by Nezumi

Like if the attackers push up to the tunnels on part 1 of dustbowl (and have a lot of spies) the scout can be back in position within like .03 seconds when he dies, and there's enough cover and places to escape to that he can keep running around unmasking people without getting trapped and killed. Plus there's resupply bags everywhere to top off his health.

One rocket or two shotgun shots kills a scout. With the constant stream of heavy offence coming towards the cap point he wouldn't last long at all.. and for what? To unmask a spy?

At that point, all he D engis are pushed up against their respawn and there's a high concentration of SGs in one spot whic all benefit from the spies being unmasked.

Wouldn't a heavy defender pushing the chokepoints be a /lot/ more effective? I doubt a spy can get past a soldier without the soldier being dead. The spy would be heavily damaged anyway and unable to nadejump.

[o_frenchtoast]

I'm in a rather foul mood now, so yeah I was just throwing that last one out there. And I never admitted to being a troll, I said I go in expecting to get totally pissed off, and you never let me down.

I've read through what you have to say as well, and I also come to theconclusion that you're a joke. You seem to make it out that the fact I hate you is that you said I wasn't funny. That's such bullshit and you know it. Maybe it's the fact you're a cunt and the only stuff you post is douchey.

EDIT: In response to your second post, I'll add that you seem to think the scout doesn't have a gun or something like that. Scouts do damage, it's one of the practical uses of havign a shotgun.

[Circuitous]

The little shotgun isn't really comparable to an assault cannon, super shotgun, or rocket launcher.

Also, could you both possibly take it to fucking PM?

[o_frenchtoast]

Not as fun.

But the point that was being made is that the scout can run in super fast, undsguise any spies and get some shots in, and if he dies he can bolt back out. Other classes lack that ability.

[o_ekim]

OFFTOPIC POST

I'm in a rather foul mood now, so yeah I was just throwing that last one out there. And I never admitted to being a troll, I said I go in expecting to get totally pissed off, and you never let me down.

Posting purely in search of a negative response is the very definition of trolling.

I've read through what you have to say as well, and I also come to theconclusion that you're a joke.

Based on my belief that organised play is a good indicator of what strats are effective? Or based on me thinking you're a jerk?

You seem to make it out that the fact I hate you is that you said I wasn't funny. That's such bullshit and you know it.

Well you seem to have been looking for every excuse to flame me since then. I can't really remember what else you've said to me in the past. Things along the lines of "I don't understand this" maybe. Or when I post a reasoned argument you respond with a weak one line trash-talking post. Generally your posts have no content so all I see you as is an irritant. What content they do have is usually massive ignorance (see music thread, perhaps). Ooh, I remember! You once posted "I think the reason clanned players have etiquette rules is because they suck too much to win otherwise". I laughed.

Maybe it's the fact you're a cunt and the only stuff you post is douchey.

I was trying to have a proper discussion in this thread. You fucked it up, cunt.

[o_yomamashouse]

I remember playing as a hwguy in push and as soona s you died that was it because the other guy would be too far ahead to stop. If you were a scout it would be easier to catch and stop them.

[o_frenchtoast]

Originally Posted by ekiM

Posting purely in search of a negative response is the very definition of trolling.

Again, your inability to read screws you up. I don't go searching for negativity, but rather it lands in my lap when you post.

Based on my belief that organised play is a good indicator of what strats are effective? Or based on me thinking you're a jerk?

Based on everything you've posted lately.

Well you seem to have been looking for every excuse to flame me since then. I can't really remember what else you've said to me in the past. Things along the lines of "I don't understand this" maybe. Or when I post a reasoned argument you respond with a weak one line trash-talking post. Generally your posts have no content so all I see you as is an irritant. What content they do have is usually massive ignorance (see music thread, perhaps). Ooh, I remember! You once posted "I think the reason clanned players have etiquette rules is because they suck too much to win otherwise". I laughed.

Point me to the post, I don't remember it. And don't mistake opinion with ignorance. The music thread is entirely my opinion. And in my opinion death metal blows etc. etc.

I was trying to have a proper discussion in this thread. You fucked it up, cunt.

Ah, my posts have no content, and all I respond with is one line trash-talking.

And with that I'm afraid I must leave, I have too much homework. You, good sir, may fuck yourself.

[o_yomamashouse]

I think this poor thread deserves to be put out it's misery.

[o_ekim]

Originally Posted by FrenchToast

In response to your second post, I'll add that you seem to think the scout doesn't have a gun or something like that. Scouts do damage, it's one of the practical uses of havign a shotgun.

You seem to think that the weakest class in the game can do real damage with one of the weakest weapons in the game. You're wrong. The scout is virtually useless as a DM class. A scout vs any half-way competent other class will get chewed up and spat out in a couple of shots. I hate to say this, but you would know this if you had any experience of competitive play.

Originally Posted by FrenchToast

But the point that was being made is that the scout can run in super fast, undsguise any spies and get some shots in, and if he dies he can bolt back out. Other classes lack that ability.

Spies or meds get to the front lines a few seconds slower than scouts. They survive a hell of a lot longer than scouts once they're there. I'm pretty sure a scout would spend much more of his time walking back to the front lines than a heavier class would, despite moving faster.

A heavier class can also do some form of damage to the attackers. A medic is a good death match class with his high speed, medium durability and supershotgun. He can also infect, which cripples any attacker. A spy is similar but even tougher, can also undisguise spies, can disguise as an attacker and can dispatch heavy classes easily with his knife, in sklled hands.

Heavier classes still like a HW, soldier or demo can hold a choke point vs multiple attackers, killing or severely damaging anyone passing through.

What can a scout do? Very, very light damage and possible undisguising of spies. NOT an effective D class.

Originally Posted by Circ

Also, could you both possibly take it to fucking PM?

I offered ages ago. He won't.

Originally Posted by FrenchToast

Not as fun.

Here's why; he craves attention. The poor little guy!

If FT feels the need to continue responding to me here I'll try and split up posts so I don't respond to him in the same post as talking about the actual topic. Then maybe if a mod decides this needs locking he could just delete all the OT posts. Shrug.

[o_yomamashouse]

I think a good solution to this would be mutual ignoring in the user options.

[o_frenchtoast]

ekiM, to take it to PMs, you first have to say something about it, and then you actually have to PM.

[o_ekim]

OFFTOPIC POST

Originally Posted by FrenchToast

For example, whenever I see that ekiM has posted, I set myself up to get pissed off and be a dick to him.

Originally Posted by FrenchToast

Again, your inability to read screws you up. I don't go searching for negativity, but rather it lands in my lap when you post.

Inconsistency.

Originally Posted by FrenchToast

And don't mistake opinion with ignorance. The music thread is entirely my opinion. And in my opinion death metal blows etc. etc.

You're telling me that this...

I'll revise the definitions. Metal is throaty nonsense, and emo is high pitched whine. There's far too many band of both genre.

Clearly we should settle on a funk.

... isn't ignorance? Dismissing the entire metal genre out of hand as nonsense?

Originally Posted by FrenchToast

Ah, my posts have no content, and all I respond with is one line trash-talking.

Correct.

Originally Posted by YoMommasHouse

I think this poor thread deserves to be put out it's misery.

There's still proper discussion about the original topic here. FrenchToast set out to be a jerk to me, that's his call. I hope this thread won't be locked because of it.

Originally Posted by YoMommasHouse

I think a good solution to this would be mutual ignoring in the user options.

Maybe he could try, I don't know, not flaming just to derail a thread? I could try not responding but it seems like "but he started it!" is about the level of discourse you guys understand.

Originally Posted by FrenchToast

ekiM, to take it to PMs, you first have to say something about it, and then you actually have to PM.

Originally Posted by ekiM

as it necesary for you to take this thread totally offtopic? Just fuck off posting if you have nothing to say. If you want to say "u r a dick lol" you can PM me.

Shrug. Actually I'd prefer it if you just stopped responding at all. This thread would be a start. Stopping posting altogether would be a bonus. Anyway, I thought you had homework?

[o_frenchtoast]

Ah, I couldn't pull away just yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrenchToast
Ah, my posts have no content, and all I respond with is one line trash-talking.

Correct.

Way to take it out of context, douchebag. At least I have the decency not to twist your words.

And let me clarify once more what I mean.

When I see that ekiM has posted, I expect to get pissed off, so I prepare myself to be a dick. If his post isn't anything douchey, then I won't be a dick. However, that doesn't happen much. Are you with me yet?

And fuck, do I have to add in my opinion to the end of everything I say? Would it help make sense to you? Fine.

I'll revise the definitions. Metal is throaty nonsense, and emo is high pitched whine. There's far too many band of both genre.

Clearly we should settle on a funk... IN MY FUCKING OPINION.

Not ignorance. To me, Metal is throaty, and emo is high pitched. To me, there are far too many bands of both kind. Do you understand? Because to me it's pretty obvious that everything anyone says is their opinion. But correct me if I'm wrong.

[o_nezumi]

Originally Posted by ekiM

More effective than a soldier of HWGuy in the choke point, actually damaging stuff?

Yes, but emphasis on 'very specific situations'. I think the second half of the first and second rounds of dustbowl (when the attackers basically own the tunnels in both cases). IF there are a lot of spies getting past a lot of SGs, I think the scout unmaksing them would make up for the lack of damage.

Originally Posted by ekiM

One rocket or two shotgun shots kills a scout. With the constant stream of heavy offence coming towards the cap point he wouldn't last long at all.. and for what? To unmask a spy?

In dustbowl section 1 especially the area after the tunnels is perfect for running and jumping away as a scout. You can jump between all the roofs there and generally act like a rabbit on crack. If you're lucky the D will even be distracted and chase you (but admittedly that's not likely in a clan game where people would be more foucused on completing the objective)

Originally Posted by ekiM

Wouldn't a heavy defender pushing the chokepoints be a /lot/ more effective? I doubt a spy can get past a soldier without the soldier being dead. The spy would be heavily damaged anyway and unable to nadejump.

The think is that it's usually futile to try to take back the tunnels once the attackers have the grenades. Your best bet (I think...) is to try to guard the exits of those tunnels. If your SGs don't start shooting right away then you loose the advantage of the choke point.

Also, in AvD one team is dedicated to defense, so loosing one heavy damage player isn't loosing such a large percentage of your damage potential. Besides that, the whole point of D scout in this scenario is to make SGs do more damage, so ideally it's not like you're even sacrificing firepower to field a scout.

And I think that a big pile of disguised spies all running towards the flag wouldn't stop to DM and loose their disguise. Of course, they could all just prime grenades as they run in and have a pretty good chance of blowing the hapless scout to hell...

[Circuitous]

Defensive Scout is useful in situations where there are numerous Spies on offense slipping by SGs and you have enough players that "losing" one man to undisguise the Spies isn't a problem. However, in cases where the same player could play a Spy and keep up with the enemy Spies, Scout would not be preferable. And due to the "enough players" thing, odds are it will never be in an organized, player-limited game.

Right?

[o_parasite]

You are both pathetic. Let's bring out a classic image that applies here:

[o_ekim]

OFFTOPIC POST

Originally Posted by FrenchToast

Way to take it out of context, douchebag. At least I have the decency not to twist your words.

That was humor, like, intended as a joke! Jeez why are you such a sour young man?

Originally Posted by FrenchToast

When I see that ekiM has posted, I expect to get pissed off, so I prepare myself to be a dick. If his post isn't anything douchey, then I won't be a dick. However, that doesn't happen much. Are you with me yet?

And when I see FrenchToast posting I think "hmm, pointless shit coming up here, best prepare to ignore it". I don't prepare myself to get pissed off, I prepare myself to ignore your crap.

Apparently that's wise because if I tell you you're being a jerk once (child abuse thread) then you hate me forever and feel the need to flame me wherever you can.

Originally Posted by FrenchToast

And fuck, do I have to add in my opinion to the end of everything I say? Would it help make sense to you? Fine.

I'll revise the definitions. Metal is throaty nonsense, and emo is high pitched whine. There's far too many band of both genre.

Clearly we should settle on a funk... IN MY FUCKING OPINION.

Not ignorance. To me, Metal is throaty, and emo is high pitched. To me, there are far too many bands of both kind. Do you understand? Because to me it's pretty obvious that everything anyone says is their opinion. But correct me if I'm wrong.

Obviously that is your opinion. Equally obvious is that it's an opinion born of ignorance and a desperate adolescent desire to define yourself as part of a clique.

One of my pet peeves is people who use "it's my opinion, man" like that can justify anything whatsoever.

All synthesised music is crap! That's not ignorance, it's just my opinion.

Anyone who voted Bush is a moron! That's not a sweeping and unfair generalisation, it's just my opinion.

Anyone with homosexual tendancies is a loathsome wretch. That's not bigotry, it's just my opinion.

The Earth is flat! That's not stupidity, it's just my opinion.

Nah... that logic doesn't fly with me.

[o_yomamashouse]

Originally Posted by ParaSite

You are both pathetic. Let's bring out a classic image that applies here:

Heh, reminded me of this(courtesy of Mervaka)

and this(my favourite)

[o_frenchtoast]

You know what man? Fuck you. You're just regurgitating the same arguments. Passing off what I say as 'desperate adolescent desire to define myself as part of a clique.'

Actually, that's not it. It's more the part where I don't like it, but clearly you're too fucking dense to get that or listen to what I'm saying.

When I'm 30 and I think death metal sucks, what's your bullshit excuse then? You're an asshole, go play in a microwave.

/fin

[o_ekim]

Originally Posted by Nezumi

Yes, but emphasis on 'very specific situations'. I think the second half of the first and second rounds of dustbowl (when the attackers basically own the tunnels in both cases). IF there are a lot of spies getting past a lot of SGs, I think the scout unmaksing them would make up for the lack of damage.

Well there are just 2 or 3 choke points in each of those situations. IF there are a lot of spies getting past it means that you're not holding the choke points well enough and their whole offence is getting through. Taking a man off of "killing stuff" duty to go scout isn't going to help that.

Originally Posted by Nezumi

In dustbowl section 1 especially the area after the tunnels is perfect for running and jumping away as a scout. You can jump between all the roofs there and generally act like a rabbit on crack.

If the offence have pushed forward past the chokepoints to the jumppoint then they're very close to capturing. They're basically all over you. Undisguising some spies just isn't going to help much.

Originally Posted by Nezumi

If you're lucky the D will even be distracted and chase you (but admittedly that's not likely in a clan game where people would be more foucused on completing the objective)

I think that was meant to say O... but yeah, a scout jumping about with a singleshotgun isn't going to worry a soldier or something about to grenjump to the cap point.

Originally Posted by Nezumi

The think is that it's usually futile to try to take back the tunnels once the attackers have the grenades. Your best bet (I think...) is to try to guard the exits of those tunnels. If your SGs don't start shooting right away then you loose the advantage of the choke point.

You can't push back past the tunnels but you do need to hold the choke point. Heavy classes can push at the choke point, holding the O back. A scout can run around being useless, MAYBE undisguising one spy every minute or something.

Originally Posted by Nezumi

Besides that, the whole point of D scout in this scenario is to make SGs do more damage, so ideally it's not like you're even sacrificing firepower to field a scout.

Only vs spies. What about the rest of the offence? If you're not holding the chokepoints enough to hold off spies you need a heavier defence on the choke, not a weaker defence.

And, a soldier or other heavy class pushing the choke point will rape any spy who tried to get past without firing (and thus undisguising). So I think he can stop spies at least as well as a scout... and actually do damage to whatever other O classes are coming.

Originally Posted by Nezumi

And I think that a big pile of disguised spies all running towards the flag wouldn't stop to DM and loose their disguise.

If they're already past the chokepoints then they're all over you. If you're still holding the chokepoints somewhat then heavy classes can force them to have to either fight back or take massive damage or both.

Originally Posted by Nezumi

Of course, they could all just prime grenades as they run in and have a pretty good chance of blowing the hapless scout to hell...

And if a scout meets a soldier or a medic or something before a spy, he's dead and has done nothing to slow the O down.

Originally Posted by Circ

Defensive Scout is useful in situations where there are numerous Spies on offense slipping by SGs and you have enough players that "losing" one man to undisguise the Spies isn't a problem.

Possibly. I think holding the chokepoints better would be hella lot more effective. I can't really follow the thought process of "hmm, we're losing control of the choke points... best switch to the weakest class of the game so I have a slight chance of undisguising spies!"

Originally Posted by Circ

However, in cases where the same player could play a Spy and keep up with the enemy Spies, Scout would not be preferable.

Sure, or any heavy class that can block spies enough to force them to fight.

Originally Posted by Circ

And due to the "enough players" thing, odds are it will never be in an organized, player-limited game.

Right?

Right. I can see how someone who played on a public server where a lot of spies were getting through might go scout to undisguise them and think they were doing a world of good. But really, it is my firm belief that that role (disrupting spies) can /always/ be better performed by some other class. Mainly because the scout is useless at dealing damage. Rocket to the face slows a spy down more than being undisguised.