Community "rules"

[o_ekim]

Originally Posted by Manalishi

Hmm lemme get this straight... in TFC clan games.... nobody uses snipers or pyros because they are useless and only serve to annoy?

Exactly right.

Originally Posted by Manalishi

Firstly, snipers and pyros should be just as playable as all the others.

Should be, but aren't. Maybe in FF they will be.

Originally Posted by Manalishi

The Pryo rockets for example, where pretty puny, so things like standing on the balcony and shooting the snipers on the other side, and firing a few rockets at people on their way to your base... worked really well. The fire damage from those rockets chipped away for a while, so anyone entering your base was half dead.

Not to piss on your chips but that is a complete waste of a player. It might be "effective" in disorganised public play but you would have to be clueless to do it in a competitive match.

Originally Posted by Manalishi

The all out defence thing sounds insane too. If they are all defending then theres nobody to capture your flag So how are they gunna win? They will have to send someone eventually, and if its only 1 person, then it should be easy to stop them. So if you leave a few people back to defend against their 1 occasional scout or whatever, then the entire rest of the team just needs to get past their defence. At that point, if its not possible, my first thought would be that the attackers are just not good enough.

They get ahead on caps THEN lockdown to eight defence. It's not a question of "the attackers not being good enough". Eight offence vs eight equally skilled defence on most maps wouldn't have a chance of capping because the extra defenders can double up on choke points etc. Hell the offence could be a fair bit better than the def and as long as the def were coordinated the off would get nowhere.

Obviously this isn't clear to you but it's a pretty linear relationship between how many on each side and how easy it is to cap : 1v1 or 2v2 and even 3v3 you will get lots of caps because there's not enough def to cover everywhere and 1 guy dying on defence leaves a huge hole. 4 offence vs 4 defence (the standard) and you get a reasonable amount of caps and movement. 5 v5 or 6v6 then caps are possible but increasingly unlikely. 7v7 or 8v8? Forget it. All the choke points will be spammed to hell and even if you make it to the flag room there's gonna be sentries + 2/3 people to stop you.

My thought would be that if 8 def cant lock out 8 off then the def are simply incompetent.

Yes, the game is broken. Certain strategies are simply too effective.

Originally Posted by Manalishi

Couldnt the game be made so that it doesnt need special rules?

Only by being a radically different game. If most maps have 2 or at most 3 choke points to get to the flag room then unless offence is hugely easier than defence then turtling will be a game-killing strategy.

[o_3vil9rin]

Originally Posted by Manalishi

Couldnt the game be made so that it doesnt need special rules?

Class limits SHOULD be imposed. Most team sports/games that have different classes have limits on those classes.

Did QWTF have AvD style gameplay? Or domination a la cz2? Both those styles eliminate the need for etiquette really.

[o_ghost]

TFC introduced AvD gameplay in a fortress game "i think." One of the more popular maps for QWTF was a command point map, canalzone.

[o_balls]

Obviously if theres a class imbalance, and a team picks only that class.. then it could be annoying. But as i said earlier, that a fault of the game, and should be fixed. Not just a bunch of artificial rules added.

The game is broken in certain areas HENCE this is why the rules are made up! How cant you understand that? Ekim just said pretty much everything in his last post.

But why? If the other team can do anything the class-crazy team is doing, then its fair. If one team has such a huge advantage by making everyone HWGuys or something, then the other team can just make everyone HWGuys too.

The winner is the better team. The best players and the best strategies.

Again, as been said thousands of times, in a situation where no rules apply and anything goes, one clan may have 4 def HW and the other would probably follow their footsteps and do the same strategy. Sounds like fun doesnt it? Loads of skill required for the defence im sure... not. The rules are there to make it generally more enjoyable for everyone playing (and the rules work! this is why clan matches are still so fun), they're not there to impose limits because 4 HW's would be too powerful.

[o_eek]

all i know is i piss on the O vs O potshot gentlemens rule.. i'm takin ur health down if i see u k thx :P and go Pyro O to.. UUUHH


-DI- Dante's Inferno
-Py Pyrology

[o_id_]

Originally Posted by trOx

oh god... i didnt get through to you at all did i? it isnt a matter of playing competetively and playing "lame" at all.
my point is playing what you call lame, shouldnt be labled as lame at all, it should be acceptable play in all environments. why should what *you* call playing lame be banished from all competetive play? what's can be done in the game should be without being labled as lame...

wheres the fun in having a team go all demo and piping all the spawns? this is a serious question. where is the fun in having every player in the server play hw? it all comes down to fun really. competition is fun, and in order to have competition, rules need to be set in place so there is some sort of protocol for organizing and taking part in matches. as a previous poster stated, if you want to go offensive pyro or sniper or whatever, thats fine, but it generally will not be as effective as another class such as medic or scout that is more commonly associated with offense. the reason things like heavy weapons guy limits and such are set in place is to preserve the fun factor. if you think running offense against a team of hws is fun, ill gladly let you come in my server, get a bunch of people, put you on a team of scouts against my team of HWs and we will continuously mow you down on mulch_dm or something.

[o_3vil9rin]

Originally Posted by Manalishi

But why? If the other team can do anything the class-crazy team is doing, then its fair. If one team has such a huge advantage by making everyone HWGuys or something, then the other team can just make everyone HWGuys too.

The winner is the better team. The best players and the best strategies.

Obviously if theres a class imbalance, and a team picks only that class.. then it could be annoying. But as i said earlier, that a fault of the game, and should be fixed. Not just a bunch of artificial rules added.

No idea sorry :/ I quit before that AvD term came about. Im not sure cz2 was released then either.

I disagree. Look at another team sport, I'm guessing you're from USA so how about Ice Hockey? You wouldn't expect or even want a hockey team to send on 2 extra goalies after they went one goal up. The opposing team would be unable to score with 3 keepers crammed into the net, thus negating the entire point of the game. Also saying, 'The other team could do it if they wanted' is not really valid. The point is to keep the game flowing, not kill it stone dead and wait for the clock to run out.

Another USA team sport, basketball, forces a team to take a shot within a time limit. This rule undoubtably came about when one team would just hold the ball and ruin the flow of the game, all in the name of winning. So you can see how in professional sport rules are created in the name of competition and fun, the same can be thought of in TF. You can of course just take a basketball down the court with your mates and play 'no-holds-barred', if you so wish. Likewise with TF, public servers are there to facilitate this.

With TFC there are different class limits depending on the style of play, creating what are essentially different rule 'sets'. If all you wish is for there to be one rule set where anything goes, don't worry, it will be the most catered for set and will be around from the start of the mod to the end. Questioning the need for various rule sets makes little sense to me.

[o_darknight]

That's what the FF dev team are trying to do. But for the sake of trying to make the game PERFECTLY balanced in clan matches (removing the need for class balance) could seriously fuck over public play. And that needs to be avoided at all costs.

The dev team are aware (or at least have said they are aware) of the fact that having class limits suck and I'm sure they will think of the best solution they can. But if I had a choice between a fun clan-style gameplay with broken public gameplay or fun public gameplay and slightly broken clan gameplay (requiring such limits as cr_hwguy 1) I know which I'd choose.

[o_ekse]

why is everyone talking about class-limits now ? classlimits are a rule (by leagues for example) and not a "rule".

i think this thread was more about the "gentlemen rules" , which people have to agree to, not the server/league admin.


btw. in etf, a 4 medic off would easily rape a 4 minigunner def, we dont even have classlimits there in our league

[o_qui]

Its valid in that neither team has an unfair advantage. If one team resorts to some dirty trick, the other team can just do exactly the same.

No no no, you cant look at it like that

The counter to 8 man HW defence, is well... nothing. You cant do 8 man HW offy as its too slow and they have the respawn/base advantage.

I can see your point, you think if everyone plays "dirty" then its ok and fair. And no one doubts that its fair. But the point is its not fun. These gentlemens agreements and rules are purely so the game is more fun.

I thought they were dumb when i first started, but when you play with it a while you realise why they are there and why it is fun.

I can also see how you want to make it so in FF there will be no need for the rules. Unfortunately i cant see it happening without taking some of the imbalances in the classes. These imbalances however, add to the fun in the game. Trying to get past one HW guy is a fun challenge a lot of the time, getting past 8 sucks balls.

[o_funboy]

i can remeber how quickly tfc died when all this etiquette crap came to pass

[o_darknight]

Yes because a flat out limit of Hwguys hardcoded across the entire game makes way more sense that having a simple server side command. There are more than just clan players to cater for. The only possible solution would be to nerf the Hwguy but that could easily leave him impossible for Joe noob to pick up and play.

btw. in etf, a 4 medic off would easily rape a 4 minigunner def, we dont even have classlimits there in our league

I've only played ETF recently (and not for particularly long either) but wasn't ETF designed solely around the clan style play? Which really reduced the amount of new players it got, where would you start on a game way out of your depth? Forgetting the public ultimately resulted (maybe among other things, dunno) into it's comparative few players.

I don't mean to be offensive or anything. That's just what I've picked up about ETF from these forums.


Ofc it's all mindless hypothesising (sp?) as I hope the dev team has a number of things up their sleeves and we have no idea what the class balance will end up like in FF. Being able to remove these types of rules should be aimed for in FF but if it isn't manageable it really isn't a big deal to put in these 'artificial' rules for the sake of fun.

Originally Posted by FunBoy

i can remeber how quickly tfc died when all this etiquette crap came to pass

Among about 1000 other factors.

[o_tennovan]

Ok I basically skipped waaaaaaaaay down because half these posts are simply people trying to make other people sound like dumbasses. Here's my thoughts:

I considering gaming a sport. Every sport has rules to help make the game fun and balanced. For example, Football (American). You're only allowed so many players to be lined up on the Line of Scrimmage, only so many are eligible receivers, and forward passing is only allowed one time... and even then it has to be behind the LoS. My point is, in a match (TFC), it makes sense to have certain class restrictions to help balance shit out or to impose certain rules to keep things flowing better.

Imagine having a quarterback and 10 recievers put out on offense. Either tons of touchdowns are gonna be scored or the QB is gonna be sacked time after time after time. Regardless, its not the way the game is supposed to be played and it'll be complete chaos on the field. So instead, there's a limit on receivers etc. My friends and I have played plenty of football games like this (intramural) and I consider these pick-up games to be very similar to pubbing.

If you play for one league and don't like the rules, go play somewhere else. Its like switching from the NFL to the Canadian League, or the Arena Football League, or hell... even the XFL when it existed. They all have different rules and everyone is expected to follow those rules. If you want a total lack of rules, go pub it up man.

Saying you're gonna play a certain way just because "you can" doesn't mean you should. Thats like saying you're gonna go play in the World Cup, slide cleats up all day, and grab the ball whenever you feel like it.

[o_3vil9rin]

Thats exactly my point Tennovan. Thanks for the football references, I haven't a clue about the way American sports work, but that was an analogy I wanted to make.

Many people here think that FF should be a complete game, but I think of it as just the ball. Its up to us how we play with it.

[o_ekim]

Originally Posted by Manalishi

As i said above, if rules are the only way to stop the game from being crap, then i will obviously live with them. But all im saying, is that it would be preferable if the game didnt need the rules in the first place.

Do you really think anyone disagrees with this?

[o_yoshura]

invisible rules are lame

[MrBeefy]

Originally Posted by Darknight

Well that fact is you've made your point, you don't like the etiquette rules. We've made ours - we like them.

Just wanted to point out that DK is not speaking officially for the FF team. I'm not sure who his "we" (wii?) is. Personally, I find gentleman's rules a sad thing. If devs don't want certain elements of a game to be played, they would not have been put in. We have no control over what people do with the game on their own server once we release it, but if we didn't think a pyro should be in game, we wouldn't be bothering to add one.

[MrBeefy]

er... are there 2 Darknights?

[o_bokko]

Don't think darknight is on the dev. team so I don't wee why ppl would think that? :P
Also by 'we' he's probably referring to the majority of people playing clanned tfc.

[o_afx]

Originally Posted by MrBeefy

Just wanted to point out that DK is not speaking officially for the FF team. I'm not sure who his "we" (wii?) is. Personally, I find gentleman's rules a sad thing. If devs don't want certain elements of a game to be played, they would not have been put in. We have no control over what people do with the game on their own server once we release it, but if we didn't think a pyro should be in game, we wouldn't be bothering to add one.

Thats the precise reason why the "gentlemens" rules are there, so that there arent hard coded rules that everyone has to abide by and thus server by server the admins can decide exactly how they want the game to be played.

It'd be lovely if we lived in manilishis tf paradise where 8 man hwg defences can be cut thru by a solitary scout and everyones still happy and jolly irregardless of crappy the game is, but we dont. The point about at least attempting to code the game so this is the case is a good one, but its a lost cause and irregardless of how balanced you make it some aspect of the game is going to come out worse, be that pubs or clangames. For that reason youre always going to get rules developing, Every organised game has rules, i dont get why anyone thinks ff should be any different.