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Old 04-18-2006, 12:32 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiggles
The flag delay was a quick hack fix to the problem so Valve didn't have to think about it. We adapted to it, but I think it needs to go, or at least be made obvious, since it's unintuitive (and thus confusing to the newbie), and frankly stupid. Why can't I pick up the flag I just tossed? - it makes no sense, and (more importantly) isn't fun
The same argument could be made with all the little things we do in this mod. Conc jumping is not intuitive. Hold onto this grenade that is supposed to disorient enemies and it shoots me flying into the air??? Bunnyhopping is not intuitive. You mean you don't actually use the forward button to go forward??? Of course, these actions are going to be explained to new people so they will be more intuituve.

A simple message when you toss the flag that says "Flag Dropped. You cannot pick it up for 3 seconds" or something to that effect will alert people about the limit.

I'm not trying to say the delay is an uber important thing but I do think it adds a little bit to the game even though it was added for a different reason. Also, to be honest, how many new people do you know actively toss the flag to advance it? IMO this is usually an action you learn while playing in a clan where every inch of flag movement counts.
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Old 04-18-2006, 01:24 PM   #42
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For pub games the delay is useful but for clan games it can be really frustrating.

Anyway, the delay will be controlled by LUA and up to the mappers/server admins discretion.
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Old 04-18-2006, 01:44 PM   #43
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your mom's controlled by the LUA!
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Old 04-18-2006, 02:28 PM   #44
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What's it gonna be in official maps though? Or is it undecided at this stage?

(delay ftw)
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Old 04-18-2006, 04:09 PM   #45
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i can imagine it getting a little confusing if the delay or lack thereof is not universal
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Old 04-18-2006, 04:33 PM   #46
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I suspect that the only reason there was a flag delay in the first place, was to stop you accidentally catching the flag immediately after throwing it. That could get really annoying, you throw the flag, get hit by a rocket and pick it up again by accident a split second later, and end up leaving the flag in a really awkward place. At least this way, if you throw, you know you've got rid of it, and you know the flag will end up on the floor someplace near.

I'd agree that other than that practical consideration, there's no reason for a flag delay anything like as long as it is now. I think a lot shorter delay would work, like 0.5 sec, or maybe you should be able to pick the flag up again as soon as it hits the floor, but not while your throw is in the air? That would kind of make sense, you can't catch your own throw, but can still pick up any flag lying on the floor.

As for the current situation if a defender runs over the flag, didn't know that before, but i guess that's just another silly bug in tfc . What I'm proposing would remove that situation entirely.
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Old 04-18-2006, 05:03 PM   #47
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Now back to what the topic is actually about, since the delay is solved, will throwing the flag, and then having an enemy touch it, automatically reset the timer so the flag can be picked back up immediately?
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Old 04-19-2006, 08:52 PM   #48
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A lock would be cool if it was visual. As stated, there is a certain skill when to throw the flag and not to throw it.

A lock would also make it clear when the enemy defence touches the flag or not, and not be relying on the player to have to judge if hitboxes overlapped or not (which can be hit or miss). The non-glow sounds excellent if implemented correctly, and would add to the little touches that would really polish the mod off, such as the pipe launcher reloading correctly.
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Old 04-19-2006, 09:25 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GhOsT
The same argument could be made with all the little things we do in this mod. Conc jumping is not intuitive. Hold onto this grenade that is supposed to disorient enemies and it shoots me flying into the air???
It's not intuitive if all you know is "concs disorient people." However, after using concs a few times, it's clear that concs push things, including yourself. It's not a titanic leap of logic to figure out that concs are usable to propell yourself. This is a discovery process that is part of what makes TFC so fun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GhOsT
Bunnyhopping is not intuitive. You mean you don't actually use the forward button to go forward??? Of course, these actions are going to be explained to new people so they will be more intuituve.
Bhopping certainly isn't intuitive, otherwise people would have discovered it sooner. However, the simpler skills that make up bhopping are intuitive. Jumping quickly to maintain momentum and turning in the air to speed up: both are skills that don't take all that long to grasp. It took people a while to put them together to form "bhopping," but, once again, a discovery process.


The throw delay can be "discovered" by the new player, but there's nothing fun about the process. I bet learning you can grab the flag if the enemy touched it was interesting, but it doesn't change the fact that the original delay sucks, and should be removed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GhOsT
A simple message when you toss the flag that says "Flag Dropped. You cannot pick it up for 3 seconds" or something to that effect will alert people about the limit.
Yes, it would. But, it would still be annoying and arbitrary. Why can't I grab the flag? Because the game doesn't want me to. Well thanks game!

Such arbitrary limits should only be there to prevent a negative situation (i.e. sound-spamming) - not simply for its own sake. Like I explained above, you can create all sorts of such skills, but they don't add to the game - they just annoy the player.

The flag delay is desirable from a D point of view, but I really don't think this game needs any slowing down. Not on pubs, and certainly not in clan games. Openfire is a fast map, true, but most TFC maps are not Openfire

Quote:
Originally Posted by GhOsT
Also, to be honest, how many new people do you know actively toss the flag to advance it? IMO this is usually an action you learn while playing in a clan where every inch of flag movement counts.
I certainly didn't figure it out from day one, but after learning that you actually could throw the flag, it doesn't take a lot of thought to figure out the advantages of tossing it to get that extra foot. Every inch does count on a pub, at least back when people cared about capping flags
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Old 04-20-2006, 09:10 PM   #50
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ill try to keep this as much on-topic as i can. from an offensive standpoint, that being my preferred side of the flag, leaving the delay out would in all honesty make offense a little too easy imo. at least if you have it where the delay is gone after a defender touches it, you almost have some type of common ground to keep both sides happy.
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Old 04-21-2006, 01:06 PM   #51
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I don't really think being able to chuck a just-chucked flag would make O too easy. Making the flag never return until capped, now that would make O too easy
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