Improving CTF gameplay

[Shaggy]

I have not witness the issue first hand, but it sounds to me the problem is the fact that you don't like newbies. Where the problem if I had to guess is the very opposite. TFC started out with mostly newbie play. The first league, OGL, allowed pretty much anything fly, and there were lame strats. But as the tfcers mature, the vets grew tired of the spam and cheap tactics so stricter leagues with stricter rules were created. When this became the norm, it bleed into the pubs where the server rules started to become strict. By the end of TFC's life, everyone was bloody anal. Now we have FF, it seems to me the Vets coming from TFC are still anal and are trying to conform the newbies. Am I way off the mark?

The only reason A/D maps seem better at this time is b/c spamming is the norm and not considered annoying. Where even if the newbies want to just DM, it still is more helpful then in a CTF map.

I am a strong believer time is the only thing to heal these "birthing pains". IMO if the vets would not yell and curse at behavior they do not condom but instead ask kindly for assistance from the newbies, it might resolve itself faster. I don't know about you guys, but some of my best experiences in tfc are when I was new and just causing a muck

PS: I am sure I am way off base lol.

[Crazycarl]

The problem is that the game becomes better when players make up rules that are not codified in the game. If the game and maps were designed perfectly, it would be fun "out of the box", and server rules would not be necessary or even desirable.

From a game designer's perspective, the player is never the problem. It is the designer's responsibility to create rules and incentives to guide the player into a fun experience.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by Shaggy

I have not witness the issue first hand, but it sounds to me the problem is the fact that you don't like newbies.

Who is the "you" in that sentence?

When this became the norm, it bleed into the pubs where the server rules started to become strict. By the end of TFC's life, everyone was bloody anal.

In only a few servers, and the rules were plain for all to see.

I don't know exactly what your point is, though, Shaggy. It's been one and half years since FF was released. The TFC vets that tried to enforce strict rules in other peoples' pubs are long gone, and asking nicely ("blue send some offense", "help me on offense", etc) does approximately nothing (as it always has).

[MonoXideAtWork]

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

The problem is that the game becomes better when players make up rules that are not codified in the game. If the game and maps were designed perfectly, it would be fun "out of the box", and server rules would not be necessary or even desirable.

From a game designer's perspective, the player is never the problem. It is the designer's responsibility to create rules and incentives to guide the player into a fun experience.

You're the man.

It's all about options and incentives. You don't want to tell a player he can't do what he wants to do, you have to give him incentive do to something else.

Instead of saying: "You cannot do A", give the players choice B and choice C to bypass A entirely

[tml]

i know its rediculous and will never happen, but i just wish there was no personal score count in FF. It seems like everyone in pubs is a pussy and cares about their Kill : Death ratio more than they care about team score.

so frustrating when you are playing Ksour or dustbowl and your entire team is standing waiting for an opening, ugh! lol

[GeoKill----->]

Removed kills, no point to them, everything should relied on FP

[MightyLotu]

true

edit: also, people would actually care about FP then
it would solve 2 problems at once

[Elmo]

make it so kills are only shown at end of game scoreboard maybe?? More as a stats thing than what people see through the match.

Would annoy me to not know how many I've killed by the end of it

Ah its only competition that drives people for kills. maybe if you only knew your own kill count.. I dunno

just thinking out loud

[MonoXideAtWork]

Imo, the kills are fine. Having frags (total kills minus penalties), serves to help decipher the Fortress Points score. Knowing that you killed 20 people, and you have 5000 FP, then you know that 3 of your team's captures were made by you.

Things like that are valuable tools for a player to judge his or her personal skill, and thus guide their way into the pecking order.

Removing the "deaths" column, would be helpful though, it could remove some of the focus on staying alive that games like counter-strike and TF2 foster.

[Hammock]

Although I'm an avid believer of keeping the K : D's up on the scoreboard, I could live with having the deaths removed, and just keep the kills. Kills are very important, it's a sure sign to someone on how well they're doing. Fortress points don't do this well enough since they're inconsistent when you get them. A defender could have 500 FP's with very few kills, then cap a flag that was dropped infront of his cap he's walking by. All of a sudden he has 1500 points with the same # of kills.

When I'm playing maps like ksour or avanti, I love looking at the scoreboard at the end of the game and go, nice! over 100 kills as HW. I don't look at my deaths or look at my fortress points, if the round is close to being over and I'm at 90 kills or something I say to myself "Man! gotta find 10 people to kill and quick!". It's all about the kills. Removing both K's and D's would ruin mulching completely, but keeping the K's and dropping the deaths wouldn't.

[MonoXideAtWork]

the games where deaths matter (arena-type where if you die, you sit) need the deaths. In FF gameplay, we need to encourage players to think of suicide as a valuable tactic.

[MightyLotu]

i agree, remove deaths and keep kills

[Elmo]

would work for me. Poll? lol

[xks]

It should stay as it is.

Interestingly QL CTF operates the same policy as FF does right now, with a little extra. You get points for kills, points for captures, points for flag carrier kill and other 'defence' medal situations and more. It also displays frags and deaths.

In addition to this it also shows you every other detail for yourself, or anyone else you click on in the shape of the medal icons for specific actions.

The capture, assist, defence, impressive, excellent etc. medals all show up on the scoreboard too with numbers showing how many of each the player was awarded during the game.

No one really cares about frags or deaths at all, it's all about team winning so you rarely see people trying not to die.

Since both games are very similar in their scoreboard approach, yet the behaviour of the players is very different I can only assume that a team winning a game in QL CTF is a lot more enjoyable and rewarding than it is in FF.

Putting aside the extensive statistics system that QL has, which in itself serves as incentive but we will avoid it for now.

We are left with an announcer announcing when a team is ahead, when the teams are tied and which team wins. In addition to this the games are capped at 8 captures, first to 8 wins, or highest at the end of the time limit wins and if tied it's sudden death to decide a winner.

I think having the game limited at 8 captures adds a great deal of urgency to proceedings and forces players to act very fast in order to stop the game being beyond their reach, although a game can be long gone in FF too.

It might be worth experimenting on FF with a 100 point (10 cap) limit in addition to the map timer. This change may well help promote each player to work for his team more than just randomly having fun, which even experienced players are guilty of on publics.

Couple this with the improved menu system already talked about which helps players fit into the right role and ensures they know their purpose and the other ideas talked about and suddenly you have very different public gameplay without changing the core gameplay of FF.

[MonoXideAtWork]

Originally Posted by xks

Since both games are very similar in their scoreboard approach, yet the behaviour of the players is very different I can only assume that a team winning a game in QL CTF is a lot more enjoyable and rewarding than it is in FF.

the two games are very different, comparing one to another is like comparing pai gow poker to texas holdem.

The Object is to have the best hand, but the ways you can do it are drastically different.

Good post, too long for my taste, but good suggestions.

[RocKwell]

I think that TF2's (gasp) way of scoring would be great for ff.

[fishBurger]

QL keeps getting referenced, and there are two things about QL that affect this discussion of CTF.

1] QL is classless. Any player could have any firepower and still perform any task. Flag cappers will likely carry as much weaponry as defenders. The battle inside a base is more numbers and playerskill instead of FF's D Firepower vs. O Speed/Maneuverability.

2] QL maps dont have yards, generally. The ones that do, arent really yards anyway. This means every DMing noob is either inside their base killing attackers, or inside the enemy base killing defenders.

How can we use these qualities help FF make pub CTF fun?
Try a map with minimal/no yard. This will allow heavier classes [the choice of new players] to contribute on offense. New players can't play effective conc O, so they go D, yard DM, or get frustratingly killed on the way to the enemy base.

This would cut yard DMing, make every frag help the team, and encourage more Offense.

[MonoXideAtWork]

Originally Posted by fishBurger

QL keeps getting referenced, and there are two things about QL that affect this discussion of CTF.

1] QL is classless. Any player could have any firepower and still perform any task. Flag cappers will likely carry as much weaponry as defenders. The battle inside a base is more numbers and playerskill instead of FF's D Firepower vs. O Speed/Maneuverability.

2] QL maps dont have yards, generally. The ones that do, arent really yards anyway. This means every DMing noob is either inside their base killing attackers, or inside the enemy base killing defenders.

How can we use these qualities help FF make pub CTF fun?
Try a map with minimal/no yard. This will allow heavier classes [the choice of new players] to contribute on offense. New players can't play effective conc O, so they go D, yard DM, or get frustratingly killed on the way to the enemy base.

This would cut yard DMing, make every frag help the team, and encourage more Offense.

before anyone else mentions it.

QL has runes, which enables players to play O or D, depending on the specific pickup (armor-regen, damage-doubler, scout-speed, guard-armor buff)

the effect, is that certain pickups get taken first, and the rest of the team is left with whatever they get, so their "class" isn't always chosen by them.

Also,


The "team-arena" maps used all have a yard to some degree, it's typically designed as a "mid" that's controlled for a power-up. There was only one q3 team-arena map with a "real" yard, and it didn't make it over to QL.


I like your ideas fish, but we need to make sure we're not lowering the ceiling, concers will still want to conc. Pubs are no good if they cater only to nubs, so any new maps should continue the trend of having a few little tricks in there; specifically for those that can perform the tricks.
**novel IDEA: CTF map with security located in the yard.**

[UpInSmoke]

Originally Posted by MightyLotu

i agree, remove deaths and keep kills

make it customizable ...

[fishBurger]

Originally Posted by MonoXideAtWork

before anyone else mentions it.
I like your ideas fish, but we need to make sure we're not lowering the ceiling, concers will still want to conc. Pubs are no good if they cater only to nubs, so any new maps should continue the trend of having a few little tricks in there; specifically for those that can perform the tricks.
**novel IDEA: CTF map with security located in the yard.**

I agree. Alternate routes and good open conc lanes in bases would keep current O viable, but without a yard, useless DMing is prevented.

I also like the idea of yard control benefits, be it security, alternate routes, resupply, teleport access etc.