ff_session discussion

[Hammock]

Okay I'm taking this out of the mirv thread cause I wanted to cover this topic a bit more.

Originally Posted by Dr.Satan

I don't think there is anywhere in that base that gives O nades except the O spawn on your side of the map...but I could be wrong. The cells thing I think it based off of the low cell count on spawn but do agree that an engy isn't very effective on that map. BUT I also think that if it weren't designed that way, you would probably just see a shit ton of Sg's everywhere and it would ruin that map. Not sure why Shadow chose to make it that way, but I'm sure it was on of the two. WRT the cap...don't use it...IMO it's a great idea b/c the O can toss the flag to the D and let THEM cap it...giving them the instant resup (ie: nades, health, and armor) but either way it's not going to kill the map to have 2 cap pts. IMO and in fact adds depth. I agree that D does have a lot of trouble holding this base, but the resup downstairs is not really that far away. And to be perfectly honest...it's nice once in a while to see a strong O map...plus adding more nades would just make it a spam fest...in such a small base giving the D too much just makes things very spammy and that isn't fun at all IMHO.

Give D too much? They got nothing for this map to defend with. The packs around the cap don't give enough ammo, hp, armor, or metal. They are absolutely useless to any defending class. A HW would be perfect for the top of that ramp yet he would run out of ammo very quickly with no real method of resupplying other than suiciding.

The respawns are far enough away from the flag that when the match starts, O can get to the flag before an sg can be built in a strategic position. The first cap is almost always given away because of this.

but the resup downstairs is not really that far away

There is no resupply downstairs. There's a spawn nothing else. Defense can't even reenter respawn to resupply they're restricted to all these puny little packs scattered around the base in inconvient positions. Infact the packs not in the FR are so useless they can't be used to hold the position they're at.

The lower resupply unless you're carefull you DO take fall damage coming down. There are times you can avoid it if you jump right but most of the time you're in such a rush because the respawn is soo far away from any action that you just jump down and take the damage.

There are way too many ways in and around the base. Especially for the low numbers we play with (5v5 for leagues). This map should be a 9v9, but then it would never support the players because you'd have 4O running against 5D that have to share 2 packs in the FR, and try and survive off the other packs scattered around that give you 50 ammo, 10 armor and like 20 hp.

As it stands now in 5v5 there's no chance we can defend any choke points other the the flag itself because there's too many ways to get behind a guy, the battlements splits in two directions, there's the water route, the FD splits in two directions which you can double back on yourself once you're in the first lobby to the other side. There's two ways in to the FR on the left side upper and lower. Once you're in the FR the only effective unit is the sg on incomings because rockets move to slow to hit the fast moving scouts inside, the SG is really the only hope. Then if that fails your only hope is that you've some how managed to stop the scout moving at warp speed into the flag to fly around the middle of the FR do a figure 8 in the air and randomly choose the exit that's least guarded with the flag to escape. That's another thing that sucks is there's too many ways out.

Granted with more players that might be different, but this map is almost never played on pubs because there aren't enough packs and people hate the fact they can't enter respawn to resupply. So it's stuck in leagues 5v5 and there are way too many openings to get in and out.

Okay with that said, I actually love the lay out of this map, all I think it needs is 1 nade pack in the FR close by somewhere, and a boost to the output the packs there currently do.

Plus I think 1 crossing path should be removed. Either take out the upper battlments cross, or the lower cross. Keep 1 but remove the other.

It would be nice if the wall enclosing the flag spawn had a clear glass window so there's not such a big blind spot for the rest of the FR. Especially since the typical strat is to hug the flag with your defenders, they can never see the inc's from down low and it's their own FR.

Edit* I meant to name this topic ff_session discussion. If a moderator could change to reflect that please, would be appreciated.

[Dr.Satan]

Well I practiced on this a bit more and there are some things I have changed my opinion on:

1. Yes, you do take damage falling and that is pretty weak.
   
2. Not being able to enter spawn is also pretty lame IMO.
   
3. The bags should give a bit more ammo.

BUT I stand by these:

• Nades, I still think should not be in this map but stock. Add nades and it would just be a spam fest.
  
• You can't get nades as O anywhere but in your base that I found. Not sure where that came from, but you just can't.
  
• The spawn you drop down in is not that far away from the base. My clan ran runs to test it. Me as a demo and one of our fastest O guys running scout. Everytime I beat him to the FR. You can't get an Sg up...that is true, but you can get a demo / solly there with enough time to stop the scout rush...
  
• Spawns IMO are still not that far away from strategic D positions. The only one that has to really rush is a demo if / when he goes down and still I don't think it's that far away TBH.

There are definitely some flaws, but I still personally like this map (playing O or D). If you don't have the support of a strong group you are going to get raped for sure, and in a pub this map is hopeless...but it's a nice change of pace to see an O strong map and I think it flows fine. 7v would be the best IMHO, but a 5v isn't doomed to fail.

Also you should change the title to like ff_session discussion cause for a min I thought this was a thread on a really oddly named new map.

[KubeDawg]

The spawns are too far away for Defense to setup without having to RJ or pipe jump your way to the flag at the beginning. It's a very fast paced map, and you have to be on your feet 24/7. I believe what Hammock was trying to get to was the fact that your spawn is nowhere near the FR if you die. So that means, every time you have to go back, which makes DMing for Offense such a great strategy. If you can stay alive on offense as a medic, kill everyone near the FR, you can pretty much own the place, let the scout get the flag or whatever, and even be setup for a relay by the time it's capped.

If the packs gave more HP/Armor, that would be fantastic for the defense. It also sucks that the enemy offense can use those same packs. There either needs to be closer respawns, or the possibility of being able to restock at the respawn, but the first option would be better. Don't get me wrong, I love O maps, but this is just way too unbalanced.

I can get in, and conc, and air strafe out of danger through any exit that the enemy isn't going towards. The best plan of attack for the defense is if the flag falls to the lower level.

[[AE] 82694]

Did I miss a new map some place? ff_discussion, or did we forget the actual map name? Cause I'm lazy and not going back threw the other thread to find out.

[dys]

ff_discussion is a new map. The map doesn't allow you to exit the respawn, but instead you talk to the opposing team with sv_alltalk 1 set by default. The map objective is to discuss new suggestions for FF because there's a huge need for that. First team to post a new idea for FF on these forums is declared the winner.

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by Dr.Satan

Also you should change the title to like ff_session discussion cause for a min I thought this was a thread on a really oddly named new map.

Edit* I meant to name this topic ff_session discussion. If a moderator could change to reflect that please, would be appreciated.

I don't see how you guys seem to think adding a grenade pack is going to add tons of spam... First of all I loved TFC because the ability to spam was there. It was one of the things that made the game so intense sometimes. 2ndly 1 grenade pack on a 45 second timer that gives 2 primaries and 1 2ndary in the FR is not going create spam issues, it'll resupply 1 defensive player with nades every few scout runs (I say few scout runs because they get to the FR soo fast I betcha they can do 3-4 in 45 seconds if they wanted to.

and Kube's right on that assesment for respawns if you die sometimes you're screwed (wouldn't matter if one could resupply better IN the FR though).

I like O maps too, but I don't like them based on the fact the D is seriously crippled.

[Dr.Satan]

lol stop saying the spawn is far away...it's simply not. The map isn't even that big. Seriously the one spawn is almost literally under the FR and the other is just a nade toss away. It may take a min to get to them b/c you have to run up a ramp and / or around a corner and up a shoot, but they are not far away.

And no, my race was done simply by bhopping...he conced (see: skimming thread for speed check) and I bhopped and I still beat him every time. You don't need to rj or pipejump to beat them.

WRT adding a nade bag...it will add spam, even on a 45 sec. timer. There is a thread talking about just that now, if you add a nade bag in the FR I can guarantee that every time you jump into the FR there will be a mirv waiting. Demo starts with 2...2 mirvs when played correctly and tossed right will shut out that FR...and even if every 3rd run there isn't a mirv...that's a lot of spam IMO.

I will agree with you all that there are a ton of opportunities for concing and whatnot, but it's no different then haste, schtop, or congestus in TFC...it's just an O map.

AND I totally agree that you should be able to enter your own spawn...that is kind of dumb IMO.

[Hammock]

Not if the grenade pack is put in an inconvient position for someone hugging the flag spawn. Hell you could make that pack just outside the top Left entrance balcony (the one that overlooks the left FD entrance) into a grenade pack. Atleast then it would offer more support and incentive to do front line defense instead of 3 people hugging the flag spawn. I wasn't suggesting putting it right next to the flag so the demo never has to move, just somewhere in the FR (or in this case just outside of it).

You seriously think a demo man is going to run back to that pack every 45 seconds while a solly is there and will probably use it everytime it respawns?

And I still believe the respawn is far away when you take into account how fast the offense can get to the flag. Can you honestly say if you were a soldier defending top of the ramp that you would run all the way back down to the respawn just to resupply, knowing full well two scouts could spawn and get up the ramp before you're down and back up?

Or the other one for that matter? If you're the demo in the FR and needed to resupply would you honestly say you'd run all the way down that hallway to the respawn and then run back? I think most people would take the death and would come back with full grenades.

Give that a try in all your tests, pretend you can resupply in the respawn and at the point where you would normally go back for more health see how productive it would be to run to either respawn and run back in time to stop a defender on inc again. If it's not feasible then really saying "not being able to resupply in respawn" is a moot point.

[Dr.Satan]

I never...ever...ever run into resup...you should always take the death b/c of the exact thing you said, you come back with full nades. In a clan match...I don't know of a single person that runs to respawn...ever, unless it's T solly on monkey b/c the resup is literally at his back.

Even on blis_2fort, ramp solly should not be going into spawn...b/c he is leaving his position open for a conc in. And honestly man I don't know of a single other person who would disagree with me. Always take the death and if you can...kill yourself, preferably you use a mirv or nailnade but if you can't use a frag or rocket and get back into position as fast as you can.

But to your point...yes, I would kill myself with a mirv as a demo and be fully confident that I could get within reach of the flag before I lost a cap. Granted there are going to be times when you loose out b/c of that, but only if you do it right as a scout is coming in or something. Generally killing yourself is better then running to spawn on any map.

@ the pack thing...yes it would. Unless it was out of the FR completely like in the little lift above the water entrance or in one of the middle sections then I as a demo would happily jump over to grab the nades in the fr...b/c you have visibility of the Flag at all times in the FR. You may not be able to see it directly, but if you see a scout going in there chances are you can det him no matter where you are in the FR IF you spread your pipes like you should as a demo.

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by Dr.Satan

I never...ever...ever run into resup...you should always take the death b/c of the exact thing you said, you come back with full nades. In a clan match...I don't know of a single person that runs to respawn...ever, unless it's T solly on monkey b/c the resup is literally at his back.

Even on blis_2fort, ramp solly should not be going into spawn...b/c he is leaving his position open for a conc in. And honestly man I don't know of a single other person who would disagree with me. Always take the death and if you can...kill yourself, preferably you use a mirv or nailnade but if you can't use a frag or rocket and get back into position as fast as you can.

But to your point...yes, I would kill myself with a mirv as a demo and be fully confident that I could get within reach of the flag before I lost a cap. Granted there are going to be times when you loose out b/c of that, but only if you do it right as a scout is coming in or something. Generally killing yourself is better then running to spawn on any map.

@ the pack thing...yes it would. Unless it was out of the FR completely like in the little lift above the water entrance or in one of the middle sections then I as a demo would happily jump over to grab the nades in the fr...b/c you have visibility of the Flag at all times in the FR. You may not be able to see it directly, but if you see a scout going in there chances are you can det him no matter where you are in the FR IF you spread your pipes like you should as a demo.

So you catch one scout with your pipe traps while running all the way to the air lift thing and what about the 2nd that comes flying by? No pipe trap for him.

But to your point...yes, I would kill myself with a mirv as a demo and be fully confident that I could get within reach of the flag before I lost a cap. Granted there are going to be times when you loose out b/c of that, but only if you do it right as a scout is coming in or something. Generally killing yourself is better then running to spawn on any map.

So by this logic there's no harm in putting a nade pack close to the flag if what you claim is true and you can suicide and get back with 2 mirvs after every scout run. 2 different approaches same outcome (if you're into taking that many deaths a game).

Honestly one of the biggest draws for me for TFC and FF were the grenades. Forcing defenders to never have them other than initial spawn is a huge deterrent for me playing those maps. Congestus in TFC used to be my all time favorite map. But now not letting us play with grenades freely in it for FF it has lost its appeal to me. Same with session, I would rather play sd2 (one of the maps I disliked the most in TFC) than congestus or session just because I get to keep my grenades on defense.

There are 2 nade packs in SD2, both in prime location for spamming, yet this isn't a big deal? There's 2 grenade packs on 2fort, there's a pack on openfire, hell there's packs in almost every map somewhere for defenders to get fresh grenades.

Maps that force us to play without grenades (without taking a death) aren't TF maps. My god this fear of spam is seriously ruining the game for defense, balance/skill issues aside it's simply not as fun to play without nades...period.

[Dr.Satan]

lol seriously...I can't have nades so I don't wanna play. Come on man, there is more to this game then just nades.

Originally Posted by Hammock

So you catch one scout with your pipe traps while running all the way to the air lift thing and what about the 2nd that comes flying by? No pipe trap for him.

I agree...that's something you have to give up, but if you time it right and play the bag you can do it.

Originally Posted by Hammock

So by this logic there's no harm in putting a nade pack close to the flag if what you claim is true and you can suicide and get back with 2 mirvs after every scout run. 2 different approaches same outcome (if you're into taking that many deaths a game).

No...b/c suiciding you give up a potential cap. YES, you can generally make it, but you should only be doing it when your about to go down anyway b/c it's more important to be there then it is to get nades...And with a bag in the FR...see above.

And I'm sorry but cong was the worst map ever when you got some idiot who just wanted to spam nades over and over. It was a map flaw and I feel Shadow did the map justice by fixing it. Again, there is more to this game then just nades. And when it's played like that, it is more enjoyable for everyone. I'm not saying nades don't server a purpose, but when you can't go into a DM w/out immediately priming a nade...then I'm sorry but you need to practice and get better.

Originally Posted by Hammock

There are 2 nade packs in SD2, both in prime location for spamming, yet this isn't a big deal? There's 2 grenade packs on 2fort, there's a pack on openfire, hell there's packs in almost every map somewhere for defenders to get fresh grenades.

Yes there are...but let's look at that deeper.

2 in SD2, one on ramp and one on bottom;

• First there isn't an O spawn like there is on session...so at least 1/2 (I would say more then often though it's like 8/10) of the time one or both of those bags are taken by the O.
  
• They may be prime for spamming, but in both situations they are no where near the flag room (especially by you all's definition of distance). Meaning that generally with a basic strat the closest D player to that is a solly. Solly = nails, not near as bad as mirvs.
  
• The yard is pretty big so potentially spamming nades will be a waste unless you know the O is there...meaning you either heard them or saw them.

2fort...there are actually 3 I think...but again, no O spawn so there goes half the bags. Again 2 / 3 are generally only located next to where a solly would play. One is downstairs and it does cause a ton of spam. Not all the time, but mainly b/c the basic strat on that map is engy / solly / solly. Yard isn't all that big but see below:

I know when we played blis_2fort the demo on the enemy team pretty much just spammed ele with mirvs and it was pretty gay TBH.

Ofire...same thing and just about any map. Cept with Ofire, you generally do see a lot of spam and it is annoying. Yes it does help with area denial, but it's still can get pretty spammy.

The problem is that with this map, the resups are very close to the FR seeing as the base pretty much consists of just a FR. So putting nades in there wouldn't be a good idea. It wouldn't be as bad if there were O guys grabbing the nades too, but there isn't b/c they have their own distinct spawn. So all the nades are for sure dedicated to the D...that means spam b/c most D players are stationary and can spam a co-oridor (see: ramp or tiny ass room) and effective take out O almost every time.

[Hammock]

I highly doubt in league play offense grabs that nade pack on SD2 in the upper spawn as often as you suggest. Most O will leave it for defense. The lower one sure because no D is really stationed there.

Originally Posted by Dr.Satan

lol seriously...I can't have nades so I don't wanna play.

Don't wanna play those maps nope. I'll play other maps that are more fun that have nades.

Come on man, there is more to this game then just nades.

Design a ctf map that has no nades what so ever and just watch and see how popular it is. Obviously the only thing that's important is to ensure concs are present, so we get maps designed so offense can get out of the base and to the enemy's with 3 full concs. So remove all other primaries and 2ndaries from the map.

Not about grenades hah.

[Dr.Satan]

Originally Posted by Hammock

Design a ctf map that has no nades what so ever and just watch and see how popular it is. Obviously the only thing that's important is to ensure concs are present, so we get maps designed so offense can get out of the base and to the enemy's with 3 full concs. So remove all other primaries and 2ndaries from the map.

Not about grenades hah.

no no no NO...I said there is more to this game then just nades...not that nades weren't important. If I didn't want nades I would play TF2. Your complaining that you don't get enough nades to spam the crap out of everything that moves. I'm saying you should use the one's your given more effectively and stop complaining about it.

[QUOTE-Hammock] I highly doubt in league play offense grabs that nade pack on SD2 in the upper spawn as often as you suggest. Most O will leave it for defense. The lower one sure because no D is really stationed there.[/QUOTE]

I do...if I'm a med I do. The D has plenty of advantages on SD2 playing the ramp and spam is not something they need...I on the other hand need my concs to get there and my nades to DM the other D guy holding the enemy ramp.

Originally Posted by Hammock

Don't wanna play those maps nope. I'll play other maps that are more fun that have nades.

Then don't...if you can't play without a million nades, don't. But don't call it a design flaw simply b/c you can't DM w/out a nade.

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by Dr.Satan

no no no NO...I said there is more to this game then just nades...not that nades weren't important. If I didn't want nades I would play TF2. Your complaining that you don't get enough nades to spam the crap out of everything that moves. I'm saying you should use the one's your given more effectively and stop complaining about it.



I do...if I'm a med I do. The D has plenty of advantages on SD2 playing the ramp and spam is not something they need...I on the other hand need my concs to get there and my nades to DM the other D guy holding the enemy ramp.



Then don't...if you can't play without a million nades, don't. But don't call it a design flaw simply b/c you can't DM w/out a nade.

Lol I knew that line was going to come. "Just be better with the nades you have", "Just get better", "Obviously you suck, just get better".

My god it's like arguing with religous people here, when you run out of decent arguements that's a nice fall back comment.

I don't happen to play demo, I don't play HW, I don't spam mirvs, I guess I could randomly spam my primaries or nails as a soldier if I wanted to. It's got nothing to do with my skill level. Nades are just fun to have and fun to use.

You say you like the nades, if you didn't you would play TF2, so explain to me why you support the continous decline of defensive strength by limiting their nades to just what they spawn with, when they got offense coming just as fast as it takes you to get to the flag with full nades every time?

Where's the fun in

RN1: D:100% O:100%
RN2: D:75% O:100%
RN3: D:50% O: 100%
RN4: D: 25%(Death/suicide) O:100%

?

O is suppose to mess the D up, create their holes to slip through, not slowly dwindle the D down until they can't defend properly.

Yes FF is a death heavy game no problem with that. Unfortunately it is not my belief that suiciding should be a required strategy to defending. Everyone hate's stat whores who don't like to die at all, but to actually design a game/map that has a fundemental flaw of forcing defenders to suicide just to keep up their defense is just wrong. There should be a choice atleast.

[KubeDawg]

ff_nadewhore will be my first map. No, I don't spam. I never spam. I clearly know where I'm throwing my nades when I throw them, and I throw them a lot.

[Innoc]

Originally Posted by KubeDawg

ff_nadewhore will be my first map. No, I don't spam. I never spam. I clearly know where I'm throwing my nades when I throw them, and I throw them a lot.

LMAO! I can attest to THAT! ff_express was INSANE tonight!

[Dr.Satan]

Originally Posted by Hammock

Lol I knew that line was going to come. "Just be better with the nades you have", "Just get better", "Obviously you suck, just get better".

My god it's like arguing with religous people here, when you run out of decent arguements that's a nice fall back comment.

Now hold on...I only brought up that b/c you purposely misread what I said and twisted it into something completely different (or that's what I gathered), you go below the belt and so will I. Generally I try to leave individuals out of the arguments b/c it's silly to attack someone based on personal skill, but I guess you started it?

Originally Posted by Hammock

You say you like the nades, if you didn't you would play TF2, so explain to me why you support the continous decline of defensive strength by limiting their nades to just what they spawn with, when they got offense coming just as fast as it takes you to get to the flag with full nades every time?

Where's the fun in

RN1: D:100% O:100%
RN2: D:75% O:100%
RN3: D:50% O: 100%
RN4: D: 25%(Death/suicide) O:100%

?

O is suppose to mess the D up, create their holes to slip through, not slowly dwindle the D down until they can't defend properly.

No...O is supposed to do BOTH. And by one or the other get to the flag and take it.

Where is the fun in:

RN1: conc, run, mirv
RN2: conc, run, frag
RN3: conc, run, flag touch...ops mirv
RN4: conc, run, nail nade
RN5: conc, run, frag
RN6: conc, flag return (cuss word), OH COME THE FUCK ON...ANOTHER FUCKING MIRV...

Same logic man and that shit happens all the time...

Also generally the O your playing against is scouts...especially in this map so talking about scouts with "full nades" is silly. Yes once in a while you might see a med...but still you have the high ground through this whole map as D...yes the FR is tough to defend due to the open spaces, but more nades is not going to solve that.

Originally Posted by Hammock

Yes FF is a death heavy game no problem with that. Unfortunately it is not my belief that suiciding should be a required strategy to defending. Everyone hate's stat whores who don't like to die at all, but to actually design a game/map that has a fundemental flaw of forcing defenders to suicide just to keep up their defense is just wrong. There should be a choice atleast.

Again...this would all be solved IF you could go back into spawn and I have said many times I agree with that...but really more nades in such a small map aren't necessary.

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by Dr.Satan

Where is the fun in:

RN1: conc, run, mirv
RN2: conc, run, frag
RN3: conc, run, flag touch...ops mirv
RN4: conc, run, nail nade
RN5: conc, run, frag
RN6: conc, flag return (cuss word), OH COME THE FUCK ON...ANOTHER FUCKING MIRV...

Lol not on this map, we finally got a good solid practice on it last night, and the offense comes so fast I had to hit tab just to see if a 3rd guy didn't join them or something. It seriously felt like there were 3 of them.

[!nF3D4L]

yawr but i wasn't playing to my usual leet standards, that map just confuses the fuck outta me i dunno weather to go ramp or to go the longer way around to get right were i wanna go, ooo deary me,

and i got a call home today from my teach saying i had a 27 in his class

[Dr.Satan]

yeah my clan decided to be lame and change the map so I didn't even get to play it...sad day.