Improving CTF gameplay

[MightyLotu]

Alright, here's a few suggestions to make CTF better in FF.

1. When the Red/Blue team gets a lead in flagcaps, have the announcer say Red/Blue team has taken the lead. At the end of the match, have the announcer say which team has won the match. (Red/Blue team has the won the match. I guess that's UT style)
(btw, the announcer voice is boring, so a second announcer voice should be saying these lines.. or as an alternative make them text only)

2. Visual reward for capturing the flag. Any cool visual effect worth looking at.
Example: launch a bunch of fireworks across the capture point.

3. The flag should have a visual effect around it, like a glowing circle on the ground or something which attracts the eye. (Why? Better visibility, people want to grab it, it doesn’t look like a stupid, boring flag)

4. The fortress points system is not rewarding enough. There should be a separate "Captured flags" boxthingy in the scoreboard.

5. Flag assists. Give the second person that touched the flag half of the points which the real capper gets. Give the third person half of what the second person gets.
(Same as suggestion 4, possibly add "Flag assists" in the scoreboard.)

Also, for the defensive players, give more points for killing a flag carrier if that's not in already.

6. Capture sounds. A better sounding and longer capture sound would be nice. A second more evil sounding capture sound plays when the enemy team captures the flag.

7. A teamcolored mark (like the arrow that shows where the capture points are) for the flags. So both teams always know where the flags are. This way people won't have to ask where the flag is all the time and encourage them to go after/defend it. This might be a radical change.. but I think it will be for the better (for all gametypes)

When I play offense in FF and cap flags.. I don't feel rewarded at all.. it's more like a "meh, I guess I'll go DM a bit" feeling. Rewarding players for teamwork and stuff is key in to making CTF more fun.

[Titan`]

Originally Posted by MightyLotu

2. Visual reward for capturing the flag. Any cool visual effect worth looking at.
Example: launch a bunch of fireworks across the capture point.

6. Capture sounds. A better sounding and longer capture sound would be nice. A second more evil sounding capture sound plays when the enemy team captures the flag.

Those sound appealing...I'm sure you could decorate your flag with a custom flag model, but a standardized ornate flag would be nice

[~kev~]

I think CTF game play is fine the way it is.

As for fireworks, I',ll wait until new years or 4th of july. I have seen quakeworld team fortress modifications like that. They are cool the first couple of times, but get old real quick. I will capture the flag for points, not to see something flash on my screen.


5. Flag assists. - this I agree with. And if 3 or 4 people touch the flag, then all of them get a percentage of the points.

[MightyLotu]

you like it as it is because you probably only play D and yard DM

fireworks was just an example.. it could be anything.. shoot electricity out of the capture point with teamcolored lightbeams or whatever, a dustbowl-style explosion effect etc..

you could say ff 1.0 was fine as it was, while it needed improvements
the game needs to evolve more because right now things aren't looking too good (lack of players)

[xks]

Originally Posted by MightyLotu

Alright, here's a few suggestions to make CTF better in FF.

1. When the Red/Blue team gets a lead in flagcaps, have the announcer say Red/Blue team has taken the lead. At the end of the match, have the announcer say which team has won the match. (Red/Blue team has the won the match. I guess that's UT style)
(btw, the announcer voice is boring, so a second announcer voice should be saying these lines.. or as an alternative make them text only)

2. Visual reward for capturing the flag. Any cool visual effect worth looking at.
Example: launch a bunch of fireworks across the capture point.

3. The flag should have a visual effect around it, like a glowing circle on the ground or something which attracts the eye. (Why? Better visibility, people want to grab it, it doesn’t look like a stupid, boring flag)

4. The fortress points system is not rewarding enough. There should be a separate "Captured flags" boxthingy in the scoreboard.

5. Flag assists. Give the second person that touched the flag half of the points which the real capper gets. Give the third person half of what the second person gets.
(Same as suggestion 4, possibly add "Flag assists" in the scoreboard.)

Also, for the defensive players, give more points for killing a flag carrier if that's not in already.

6. Capture sounds. A better sounding and longer capture sound would be nice. A second more evil sounding capture sound plays when the enemy team captures the flag.

7. A teamcolored mark (like the arrow that shows where the capture points are) for the flags. So both teams always know where the flags are. This way people won't have to ask where the flag is all the time and encourage them to go after/defend it. This might be a radical change.. but I think it will be for the better (for all gametypes)

When I play offense in FF and cap flags.. I don't feel rewarded at all.. it's more like a "meh, I guess I'll go DM a bit" feeling. Rewarding players for teamwork and stuff is key in to making CTF more fun.

#1 is the same in Quake as well, it announces which team won at the end in TDM since it's about the team rather than individual frags. Text announcements saying which team has taken the lead is ok, but I wouldn't want vocal announcements of that particularly.

#2 doesn't bother me much, it might encourage some people but overall I think there are more important things to be getting on with.

#3 I'm torn on this idea because I like the sound of it, however at the same time the flag is special enough already, it's a coloured glowing flag and there are only two of them on the map. The flag should stay out enough already and if it doesn't suggestion #7 should take care of it being visible enough.

#4 We don't need separate points scores, the fortress points system is a good idea and although it could be reworked I think it works fine as it is right now.

#5 Flag assists is a good idea from a stat and fortress points perspective. It should be simple though, touching the flag gives say 500 fortress points if capping is giving 1000, or capping could even be raised a little. Say 1200 for a cap and 400 for a touch.

#6 I like the capture sounds as they are, they get the point accross and if you change them you run the risk of adding something that whilst extravagant, isn't actually nice to listen to 20 times an hour.

#7 I am torn on the idea of an objective based flag icon showing through the walls as the capture point does when you hold the flag itself. It is both good and bad in different ways. If implemented it should only be visible to one team and only when it's been carried away from the flag room and not in anyones hands. I find it hard to believe they haven't beta tested something like this already though.

[Ihmhi]

Originally Posted by MightyLotu

Alright, here's a few suggestions to make CTF better in FF.

1. When the Red/Blue team gets a lead in flagcaps, have the announcer say Red/Blue team has taken the lead. At the end of the match, have the announcer say which team has won the match. (Red/Blue team has the won the match. I guess that's UT style)
(btw, the announcer voice is boring, so a second announcer voice should be saying these lines.. or as an alternative make them text only)

Have you been playing Quake Live, too?

"Your team is tied for the lead!"

"Your team has taken the lead!"

"Your team has lost the lead!"

Three sentences that are very useful. I like. And of course it can be turned on and off in Fortress Options.

Originally Posted by MightyLotu

2. Visual reward for capturing the flag. Any cool visual effect worth looking at.
Example: launch a bunch of fireworks across the capture point.

An excuse to make use of OB's fancy particle system? Sure, why the Hell not!

We can tie something to the capture point entity (like the Objective Icon is now) so we don't have to go nuts retrofitting maps.

Originally Posted by MightyLotu

3. The flag should have a visual effect around it, like a glowing circle on the ground or something which attracts the eye. (Why? Better visibility, people want to grab it, it doesn’t look like a stupid, boring flag)

I concur.

Originally Posted by MightyLotu

4. The fortress points system is not rewarding enough. There should be a separate "Captured flags" boxthingy in the scoreboard.

This I'm not so sure about. Not all of FF centers are capturing flags. FP can use some work, but what in this game doesn't need work?

Originally Posted by MightyLotu

5. Flag assists. Give the second person that touched the flag half of the points which the real capper gets. Give the third person half of what the second person gets.
(Same as suggestion 4, possibly add "Flag assists" in the scoreboard.)

We've actually debated this kinda stuff at length. It's hard to figure it out.

How do you deal the points? People who touched it? Then it could just get tossed around for people to whore FP.

Distance covered? Run around in circles with the flag.

Time held? Just stand there holding it.

This one's a pickle that we haven't quite salted yet.

Originally Posted by MightyLotu

Also, for the defensive players, give more points for killing a flag carrier if that's not in already.

Agree, just like Quake3/Quake Live. "DEFENSE!"

Originally Posted by MightyLotu

6. Capture sounds. A better sounding and longer capture sound would be nice. A second more evil sounding capture sound plays when the enemy team captures the flag.

Longer could be a bit annoying.

One thing we want to do in the future is really enhance the customization of FF beyond "replace sound.wav with your own". Like, a drop-down menu kind of thing for fucking everything. Models, sounds, the menu background, etc. The more customizable the better.

Replacing files is so 1998.

Originally Posted by MightyLotu

7. A teamcolored mark (like the arrow that shows where the capture points are) for the flags. So both teams always know where the flags are. This way people won't have to ask where the flag is all the time and encourage them to go after/defend it. This might be a radical change.. but I think it will be for the better (for all gametypes)

It's been debated about whether or not we should allow people to see the flag's position at all times.

The best compromise would probably be to give flags their own icon and have it on at all times for pubs, but have a server-side variable where it can be shut off for league play, pickups, etc. if the choose to do so.

Originally Posted by MightyLotu

When I play offense in FF and cap flags.. I don't feel rewarded at all.. it's more like a "meh, I guess I'll go DM a bit" feeling. Rewarding players for teamwork and stuff is key in to making CTF more fun.

Yes, that's part of our mission... but we're really shorthanded on staff. Hm... this gives me an idea for a dev journal...

[battery]

You heard it before, and I am gonna repeat it here again. FF is not TF2. Most of the points you listed are already implemented in TF2. FF was designed to be the opposite of TF2. Rewards should be in form of congrats from teammates and opponents, not some goofy eye-candies.
________
Demerol rehab forums

[MightyLotu]

Originally Posted by xks

#4 We don't need separate points scores, the fortress points system is a good idea and although it could be reworked I think it works fine as it is right now.

yeah, after thinking about it again, i agree that the scoreboard doesn't need more stuff than it already has.. it would be too much, scrap this idea
though i'm still no fan of the fortress points system as it is

Originally Posted by Ihmhi

Have you been playing Quake Live, too?

"Your team is tied for the lead!"

"Your team has taken the lead!"

"Your team has lost the lead!"

Three sentences that are very useful. I like. And of course it can be turned on and off in Fortress Options.

hehe, no but i've always been a fan of the quake sounds and lines
i wanted these sentences to be in tfc too, right now in tfc and ff it's just
"Your team has captured the enemy flag"
"The enemy team has captured your flag"
"Your team has captured the enemy flag" and so on.. you always have to look at the scoreboard to see who'se actually winning it would be nice to have a few more sentences like those that can actually be usefull..

We've actually debated this kinda stuff at length. It's hard to figure it out.

How do you deal the points? People who touched it? Then it could just get tossed around for people to whore FP.

Distance covered? Run around in circles with the flag.

Time held? Just stand there holding it.

This one's a pickle that we haven't quite salted yet.

yeah, the point whoring thing.. i don't think that will happen as people will just want to cap it before some teammate steals it and generally people don't care too much about fortress points.. of course there will always be the occasional jerks, but still.. there would be 2 of them needed and it wouldn't be hard for another teammember to steal it back from them if it does happen

as dealing with the points goes.. people who touched it yes, not distance covered or time held.. you know, there's always those times where you lose the flag in your base or right at the cappoint and a teammember steals it.. you can't do anything about that either (atleast this way the one that carried it will still get some points )

Longer could be a bit annoying.

One thing we want to do in the future is really enhance the customization of FF beyond "replace sound.wav with your own". Like, a drop-down menu kind of thing for fucking everything. Models, sounds, the menu background, etc. The more customizable the better.

i can live with the current capture sound if it won't get changed but i still think there should be a separate capture sound for the enemy team

and to battery..
i've never even played TF2.. these points are strictly for FF, stuff i wanted to see in FF long before there was even talk of TF2

and still, why do you think they are in TF2 then? obviously they seem to be a good thing as there's a lot of people playing TF2

[MightyLotu]

Originally Posted by battery

Rewards should be in form of congrats from teammates and opponents, not some goofy eye-candies.

well one more thing.. this is source not golden source
if you don't want to see eye-candy stuff why do you even play source games then.. might as well play QTF.. you know what i mean?

[xks]

Originally Posted by Ihmhi

We've actually debated this kinda stuff at length. It's hard to figure it out.

How do you deal the points? People who touched it? Then it could just get tossed around for people to whore FP.

Distance covered? Run around in circles with the flag.

Time held? Just stand there holding it.

This one's a pickle that we haven't quite salted yet.

Yes, people who touched it.

Just have a simple rule of if you throw it twice in a row you don't gain any further points from it. Since many attackers toss the flag legitimately it would be wrong to disallow it completely when it comes to sharing FF points, but at the same time it's extremely rare for an attacker to get to toss the flag and immediately pick it up again and toss it again. Most of the time the guy who tosses the flag is dead or tossing it to get it outside of security before he dies.

It could technically be exploitable somewhere if loads of people wanted to group together and throw the flag around for a few extra fortress points but realistically why would anyone bother?

Another thing that could be done to stop most exploiting is to remove the touch bonus once you've crossed the yard. This would prevent private swapping of the flag where the opposition can't interfere. Since the oppositions interference for would be the main thing to prevent any repeated throwing for points it seems a good idea to do this.

[Tyrant]

Originally Posted by MightyLotu

Alright, here's a few suggestions to make CTF better in FF.

1. When the Red/Blue team gets a lead in flagcaps, have the announcer say Red/Blue team has taken the lead. At the end of the match, have the announcer say which team has won the match. (Red/Blue team has the won the match. I guess that's UT style)
(btw, the announcer voice is boring, so a second announcer voice should be saying these lines.. or as an alternative make them text only)

2. Visual reward for capturing the flag. Any cool visual effect worth looking at.
Example: launch a bunch of fireworks across the capture point.

3. The flag should have a visual effect around it, like a glowing circle on the ground or something which attracts the eye. (Why? Better visibility, people want to grab it, it doesn’t look like a stupid, boring flag)

4. The fortress points system is not rewarding enough. There should be a separate "Captured flags" boxthingy in the scoreboard.

5. Flag assists. Give the second person that touched the flag half of the points which the real capper gets. Give the third person half of what the second person gets.
(Same as suggestion 4, possibly add "Flag assists" in the scoreboard.)

Also, for the defensive players, give more points for killing a flag carrier if that's not in already.

6. Capture sounds. A better sounding and longer capture sound would be nice. A second more evil sounding capture sound plays when the enemy team captures the flag.

7. A teamcolored mark (like the arrow that shows where the capture points are) for the flags. So both teams always know where the flags are. This way people won't have to ask where the flag is all the time and encourage them to go after/defend it. This might be a radical change.. but I think it will be for the better (for all gametypes)

When I play offense in FF and cap flags.. I don't feel rewarded at all.. it's more like a "meh, I guess I'll go DM a bit" feeling. Rewarding players for teamwork and stuff is key in to making CTF more fun.

I like all these suggestions, I couldn't agree with you more. I also think a badass voice similar to UT, Quake would be awesome in FF. "Holy shit" "GOD LIKE" etc etc.

[fishBurger]

Originally Posted by Tyrant

I like all these suggestions, I couldn't agree with you more. I also think a badass voice similar to UT, Quake would be awesome in FF. "Holy shit" "GOD LIKE" etc etc.

That's annoying as hell. Most of the clanservers around have that plugin anyways, and it's annoying as hell.

[GeoKill----->]

most? Its only GGC, e0 and NFO, thats it

[PartialSchism]

Yea TBH un-needed sounds and stuff piss me off. Especially when I have to turn the quake sounds off everytime I join a server.

[GeoKill----->]

BAM
cl_downloadfilter nosounds

[Ihmhi]

Originally Posted by battery

You heard it before, and I am gonna repeat it here again. FF is not TF2.

True.

Originally Posted by battery

Most of the points you listed are already implemented in TF2.

True.

Originally Posted by battery

FF was designed to be the opposite of TF2.

False. FF's design process was started before anyone knew anything about the current iteration of TF2, and we wouldn't shy away from using a feature solely because TF2 uses it. If we could, say, implement the "who killed you?" camera, we might do just that. We'll hear cries of "OMG TF2 RIPOFF NOOB" and ignore them as others appreciate the utility of it. I just used "who killed you camera" as an example, but... yeah.

Originally Posted by battery

Rewards should be in form of congrats from teammates and opponents, not some goofy eye-candies.

No, no, we'd be fine with goofy eye candy. I don't think anyone really has problems with achievments in games, and I could foresee them being used in FF at some point. It's achievments that are necessary to unlock shit to play the game that are a bad idea. We would never do something like that.

[MonoXideAtWork]

On the subject of flag assists:

Using a percentage is the best way imo. It encourages the fantastic coast-to-coast plays that organized players love to see and perform, it rewards someone for picking up the flag or escorting a flag carrier to a certain point.

the flag is worth 1000 points, divide that by how many people touched it for awarding personal score.

[bowser]

We've actually debated this kinda stuff at length. It's hard to figure it out.

How do you deal the points? People who touched it? Then it could just get tossed around for people to whore FP.

Distance covered? Run around in circles with the flag.

Time held? Just stand there holding it.

This one's a pickle that we haven't quite salted yet.

I think a flag assist could possibly be achieved by awarding points to whoever held the flag within a certain amount of time before it is capped. it could possibly be whored where you pass it to a bunch of teammates and then cap but i dont think that would be very practical.

ex. if you touched the flag 20-30 seconds before it was capped you get assist points.

[xks]

To those of you wanting Quake / UT voice effects, this is a different game think of something original and unique. Quake have their unique and well tailored voices that work with the game, UT has effects that works with that game and all people who make HL mods or run HL servers can do is add the exact same noises.

They do not fit with this game, they don't work and all they do is remind me how annoying UT was and how much better Quake is than whatever I'm currently playing

Get some originality, I would love for those silly voice mods and any other silly mods to be completely removed from HL engine games.

[MonoXideAtWork]

I wanna hear a hot bitch talk about the flag.

"Blue flag has been moved x meters"

to go with the security and cap voices.

Also, announcing headshots would be great. (not in the UT voice)

Things pub players may like to hear announced:

headshots,
radiotags,
activation of sabotaged sentries
exchanging of team leads.