Few Questions

[Lost]

If we don't want FF to appeal to new players, then the devs can pack their shit up and burn FF right now. Without newbs, it has no chance in hell of surviving.

They could pop out a TFC clone, make the hardcore diehard unbending vets a new engine to play with. The same playerbase that TFC has is what would play it, and probably not a fraction would bother. Why? Because it would require a decent enough computer to run HL2, thus impacting performance and that edge that high FPS and good response times provide.

Newbs will flock to TF2, for a while. Newbs will flock to FF for a long damned time if everyone takes the effort to make it as friendly as possible without taking away from the longstanding gameplay mechanics and style that TFC has developed over the years.

[fishBurger]

108% does seem low, especially if you've reduced the learning curve for bhopping.

I'm all for easing the learning curve to help noobs and myself get better at bhopping, but 8% doesnt quite seem to be the incentive to learn and improve, nor provide the gratification that facilitates further improvement and honing of skills. -See concjumping and MMORPGs for the correlation between play-time (read addiction) and input of time and energy to a skill and gratification upon successful application of skill.

*Disclaimer- I'm a noob. I havent played FF and dont know how the current mechanics play. I use logic and common sense to make assumptions about what I cannot measure empirically.

[AfterShock]

I dont think the intention is to make bunny hopping something that 'must be learnt'. ATM in tfc, you cant survive top level TFC without being able to bunny hop. In FF, i think the hope is that bunny hopping will be one of those skills that you can learn if you can be bothered or you are interested (and is still there for ex-TFC vets that want to do it), but it won't prevent you from dealing with top players / becoming top class if you can't. Kinda like learning to circle strafe SGs. You can learn that if you want, but newbs can just as easily throw a mirv on them instead.

And yes, the 108% cap is too low and will be tweaked.

[id_]

this seems silly to me tbqh. ill use TFC as an example; anyone who played had to learn how to do pretty much everything. this includes moving, DM, smart grenade usage, where to build sentry guns, what classes were effective in what positions, conc jumping, circle strafing, etc. basically EVERYTHING involved in the game was something we had to learn or figure out.

to me this issue is along those same lines. for instance, player X is new and sees people bunnyhopping, but decides he doesnt want to take the time to learn how to do it. thats fine, its his loss and he doesnt have to do anything he doesnt want to. now lets say player X is new and sees people conc jumping, but decides he doesnt want to take the time to learn how to do it. is that not the same thing? i dont really think saying "ok guys, we need to balance conc jumping so that players who can do it effectively dont have a huge advantage over those who cant/wont."

unfortunately i cant really offer any alternative solution other than either taking bhop out completely or setting it to percentage that is significantly higher than 108%. being unable to get my hands on the beta to test this myself, i cant really comment on the speed cap based on experience, only in relation to TFC and the numbers given here.

[Ihmhi]

Originally Posted by id_

i dont really think saying "ok guys, we need to balance conc jumping so that players who can do it effectively dont have a huge advantage over those who cant/wont."

Actually, they are doing that. Concing is (quoting a dev or beta tester, I forget which) "less unforgiving" and works better with lag.

[mistermojo]

Originally Posted by Ihmhi

Actually, they are doing that. Concing is (quoting a dev or beta tester, I forget which) "less unforgiving" and works better with lag.

And bunnyhopping is less unforgiving, since it's Quake bhop so you don't need scripts. So there you go!

[FrenchToast]

Concing is in a happy place right now I believe.

[Paft]

It doesn't really matter what the speed is, you'll still be faster than the people who can't BH.

Also from what I gather it doesn't have as harsh a cap, so not as hard to maintain flow unlike in TFC.

[Player]

Bhop in TFC requires more skill than most other TF games (Quake 3 mods) because of the speed cap. I actually like the speedcap :P

[Coronius]

I see why lowering the cap is a good idea, snice 170% is still alot.

But making it low, or to low. Would make BH useless, then why not take it out?

I mean if Bunnyhopping is to powerfull, size down the cap. But dont make it useless. IMO(from what aftershock said) if BH is a thing you can learn if you wanna, but are fine without, its useless and meaningless to include.

[Circuitous]

I'm hoping to hell it gets increased.

[tu!]

Originally Posted by Player

Bhop in TFC requires more skill than most other TF games (Quake 3 mods) because of the speed cap. I actually like the speedcap :P

wewt wewt! someelse other than me actually likes the speed cap!

[Jiggles]

Yeah, 108% is pretty useless. Wall-strafing will actually get you going faster

[Circuitous]

Way way faster. It's bizarre.

[AfterShock]

Originally Posted by Coronius

I mean if Bunnyhopping is to powerfull, size down the cap. But dont make it useless. IMO(from what aftershock said) if BH is a thing you can learn if you wanna, but are fine without, its useless and meaningless to include.

What i meant was, in TFC, if you took an offense player and taught him to bunny hop, that would increase his skill and ability by like 30%, maybe more. (especially for scouts) In FF, I think the hope is to reduce that figure to like, 5%. (Not 0%, as you suggest).

I think maybe some people are forgetting that bunny hopping and air control are one and the same. If someone can't bunny hop, then they probably can't air control either (especially in FF, since the jump timing is done for you). So if they get shot up by a rocket, they cant turn to land where they want, or to avoid getting shot in the air. And they cant banana conc, etc. So even if we had a cap at 100%, learning to bunny hop is still far from useless (as you learn to air control along the way).

Also you can hop from a propelled jump, like a conc or rocket jump, to maintain some speed for a few hops. So even if we had a cap at 100%, learning to bunny hop is still far from useless (as you could turn corners whilst travelling rather fast from a conc skim.)

So yeah, no matter what the cap is, bunny hopping, and learning to bunny hop, will be useful.

[Coronius]

I disagree, sure hopping from being conced an that boost will maintain it abit longer. but if i didnt have that conc, runing would be much more usefull snice i can shoot and avoid things much better while not having to bunnyhop. And IMO aircontrol isnt really a hard thing to learn and you get more skills at it from concing rather than timing a bunnyhop. I mean face it, either have it in and force the noobs to learn it, or take it away. I think the hint system and that its easier to learn now should suffice. on pubs only some offense players bhop and they are still pretty easy to kill. And face the fact that pro's wont suddenly just flock to a pub and start pwning up the noobs so they quit. They will do their skrims, pickups and clan matches/trainings. Sure make it less powerfull, but increase the cap.

(from what you said)It still will be good to know, but not such a big part of gameplay = maybe not useless but certainly not very usefull.

[shadow]

i was under the impression that ff's bhop cap was 200%.

now im sad.

[Circuitous]

Tell me about it.

[Bomber]

I use to hate bhop then I learned it and love owning little noobs with it making them meltdown because they are sooo mad lol!!!

[Nezumi]

if TFCs cap was 170%, then the 108% in FF feels something like 120/130%. Like everyone keeps saying, it's too low but it definitely doesn't feel 68% different than TFC. Actually, where it is right now you can really notice the difference between classes. The scout can get going really fast with bhop, but it feels like you're not gaining anything with the solly or HW. Kinda makes you feel vulnerable in open spaces actually.

Anyway...