Engineer Buildable Ideas - gogogo?

[Elmo]

Originally Posted by Raynian

I hate that when a match starts, both teams are in the flag room and in position within 15 seconds, tops. That's right, both teams. Offense is so fast and so...grindy.

We could induce spawn timers but I think everyone agrees they're pretty gay and for the most part don't fit in.

Mushy tried a few alternatives by making interesting ways in which players can spend/waste time getting back into battle. I think you'd agree that spending 30 seconds running wouldn't be terribly fun. One of mushys ideas was just a ledge on which you spawn. And to get out you'd jump off the ledge, fall and grab onto a ladder which you'd have to climb. That used up at least 5 seconds in the spawn but by doing something that wasn't quite as dull as running.

So yeah this could be remedied in map design.

Originally Posted by Raynian

Spawn. Prime conc, run towards door to yard. HH conc, immediately prime another conc, run into base, use second conc to jump into flag room. Maybe delay the second conc a few seconds. But it's the same action repeated 40 to 50 times in fifteen minutes. It just feels like there's no fun in it, it's just constantly slamming into the defenders until they slip up and let a cap through. When you die 3 or more times a minute...bleh. No single death (or single kill, for defenders) seems important. Even moves which would leave everyone going "holy shit, that play was so baller" in TFC just seem boring in comparison in FF, because there is so much shit going on constantly that nothing stands out.

etc.etc.

Playing medic and scout, yes I agree and it is kinda getting stale. I hope that the new more interactive defensive weapons will help bring in something new and refreshing - I feel it does somewhat at least. As for the common medic and scout offence. Pyro and Spy need an update (badly), spy I think we've got some interesting ideas. Yes the current one works on some level but we've already discussed this elsewhere. Pyro on the other hand, nothing obvious has turned up that has even been considered for testing. He needs an overhaul.

What I'm saying is that having two more completely viable, accessible and accepted options would make offense seem a lot less lame and would mean defence isn't quite same-o-same-o

Originally Posted by Raynian

The game is too fast, both on offense and defense. Nothing feels worthwhile.

It's my hope that as we add new things with some real depth to them and remove the frustrating elements. We can cause players to interact in on levels which there is allow them to feel more rewarded for the things they do well and have greater understanding of what they can do better when things go wrong.

It might not tackle everything you desire but I think it will have an effect.

It's our aim (or so a believe) to rememdy much of what you have a problem with. But its not going to transform overnight... this is FF development afterall.

KubeDawg: I think carl answered that well enough. Just the way voulentary development is - and though it'd be nice to promice things will change and development will continue on at a steady productive pace that will allow of regular updates. I can't...

Other guys: I think my personal answers to what you've said is also above in some indirect form.

[KubeDawg]

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

KubeDawg: From what I hear, Steamworks is based entirely on whether the Valve guys are interested, and they aren't interested. The difficulty in patching isn't really getting the pathes out(though that does take time), it's feature creep and dev inactivity. We could use Desura for automatic patching, and might look into that. We could make the SVN public and have instant updates, but most of the time the beta is not ready for the public, as I'm sure you've seen.

Carl, I've been told otherwise. It was a while back so I don't remember the thread info, but I believe squeek said it'd be possible, although I'm not sure when. I'm pretty sure the ball is still in our court on getting Steamworks. Once this mod has been submitted for Steamworks, THEN it's up to Valve to decide whether or not to do this. I mean, they've already made tons of money from TF2, so it's not like we are in direct competition with that game.

The Desura option sounds nifty, but will it work within Steam so users have automatic downloads or will this game just not be on the steam network altogether? I don't think I fully understand how that'd work.

Could there be another SVN created that'd allow devs to transfer from the beta SVN to the user SVN and just update instantly that way?

I cannot stress enough how important Steamworks is because it ensures that anytime there is an update, anyone who still has Steam who still has FF installed(doesn't matter the version) will get the automatic update for FF the next time they decide to open it up. The devs could add/change/remove things from the mod on the fly that way. How do we get those players to hover the mouse over FF to reinstall it?

IMO, with a Fortress Forever Announcement through Steam. I don't know about other people, but I rarely remove myself from groups I've joined on Steam. So any one of the almost 4,000 users who are a member of the FF group can be sent the announcement. Once Steamworks is installed and the announcement is sent, every user that had previously quit, saw the announcement and decides to give FF another try, will get every update after that automatically so no more having to go to the FF web site to find a download. No more worries that update packages will conflict with previously installed versions of FF. It's 2011, let's get with the times guys.

[Elmo]

Originally Posted by KubeDawg

Carl, I've been told otherwise. It was a while back so I don't remember the thread info, but I believe squeek said it'd be possible, although I'm not sure when. I'm pretty sure the ball is still in our court on getting Steamworks. Once this mod has been submitted for Steamworks, THEN it's up to Valve to decide whether or not to do this. I mean, they've already made tons of money from TF2, so it's not like we are in direct competition with that game.

AFAIK.. they won't accept us. Aftershok asked them already.

Originally Posted by KubeDawg

Could there be another SVN created that'd allow devs to transfer from the beta SVN to the user SVN and just update instantly that way?

I've wondered that too...

It works for Gmod addons and people seem happy using SVNs

[Peon]

I don't know if anyone has said this yet or not, but how about being able to build an SG on ANY surface? If you could slap one on a wall or ceiling, then it's position would be more unpredictable.

Or....how about a roving SG, that moves in a specified and limited path?

Or....how about a teleport pad just for the SG? I'd say only one could be built, and can only be activated once every 30 sec or so.

Or....I still really like my Engy "personal bounce field" idea.

[Elmo]

Originally Posted by Peon

I don't know if anyone has said this yet or not, but how about being able to build an SG on ANY surface? If you could slap one on a wall or ceiling, then it's position would be more unpredictable.

Shok made this work but we never saw it in beta

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

Leak that. lol.

consider it done lol

[FreaK367]

Originally Posted by Raynian

It's why I'm starting to get jaded with FF's gameplay. It's stale after playing a few hundred games, since every single one is repeating the same action every 20 seconds for 15 minutes.

I've been playing for a long time, this year alone I've probably played over 700 rounds of public FF. And I find the best way to keep things interesting and fun, is to expand on my range of classes.

I cannot fathom people who have one class, and one class only, who never play something different, regardless of the situation or map. It seems destined to bore them eventually. I don't know what roles you play but it sounds like you only play one side, either defense or offense. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I currently play Scout, Engineer and Sniper, and what I play depends on the map and my mood, and people often fail to predict my class. I generally play scout on Aardvark, DropDown and Congestus. I Engineer on Openfire, Destroy and 2fort, I am usually.. a Sniper on Shutdown2 and Well. But depending on how I feel, I have been all 3 classes, plenty of times on all of those maps and all other maps out there. And Spy occasionally, and some of the others rarely.

Variety keeps me interested, I have trained so I have the choice and ability to be part of a solid defense or a solid offense, so things are always changing. I think more people should explore other classes and roles to help keep interested.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Elmo

Pyro and Spy need an update (badly), spy I think we've got some interesting ideas. Yes the current one works on some level but we've already discussed this elsewhere. Pyro on the other hand, nothing obvious has turned up that has even been considered for testing. He needs an overhaul.

I'm curious what are the biggest problems with pyro? I remember Credge saying a while back that his secondary grenade needed to be changed to something to make him fall on O or D, but that's about it. I have kind of mixed feelings about pyro since on one hand his movement ability is a lot of fun to use, but on the other hand, he is INSANELY good on O at AvD or I/D maps that have a lot of vertical height. In avanti in particular I think he's arguably the fastest class for capping 3/4 of the points. The times I can pull off there are fast as hell. It's like I can fly over 90% of the conflict. I don't really feel like he should be punished for that though, just there needs to be a solid counter to him (besides a good sniper). The new overpressure ability combined with sg push might be enough however, it's hard to say.

[Raynian]

Just make the pyro have a use other than DPS whore. Please.

I like how he has the vertical aspect without needing concs. Does it break balance?

...maybe.

Increased push on SGs will definitely work towards fixing that. When he's flametrimping he usually has almost no horizontal movement, so he'll get pushed back now.

[Crazycarl]

On Valve and Steamworks: Valve is a very strange company, in that they all just do whatever they want as long as they can gain some support for it (It's surprisingly similar to how we run things at FF) and without much thought to the bottom line. If we had a fan at Valve, they could make it happen for us. It has nothing to do with competition or rivalry, and everything to do with finding the right person and convincing them to use some of their valuable time to help us. I'm of the opinion that we should focus on finding ways to help ourselves instead.

On pyro: The main problem is we don't know what the pyro is, and what its role should be. Right now it spams, struggles to do a large amount of damage, it's slightly quick and has a middling movement system. Nothing about that really suggests what the pyro should be doing, and what it excels at.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Raynian

I like how he has the vertical aspect without needing concs. Does it break balance?

It's THE class for when you want a lot of vertical movement.

-He's faster than solly, can jump a similar height as him rocket jumping (you can usually hit the skybox on most maps just from a flame trimp)

-He takes NO DAMAGE from this. None for the jump and none for the impact. Demomen can hit higher speeds and distance, but at a considerable cost. Their movement operates best in wide open spaces, pyros can handle pretty much any terrain. Sollys have a couple hop moves they can execute a little faster that pyro, but it's borderline and soaks their damage as well.

-You can do it again and again. Hop from one building to the next, it's like playing Starsiege Tribes or something. You can reach high up areas with ease. You can take complicated routes casually that wouldn't be worth it for other classes. Other classes run out of concs or health fast, but he has a full ammo load.

-It's easy to execute. Beginners can pick it up far easier than reliable concing I think.

-Coupled with one grenade you can launch into orbit.

-It's practically an escape path from anyone who's not a sniper if you're outdoors. Someone on your ass? Do a flame trimp or grenade jump combo. You will take a LONG time to come down, moreso than most people want to wait around for.

As for balance breaking, I say it all depends on the map. Some maps his abilities are almost pointless, others he's a nightmare

[Raynian]

You can only throw grenades while trimping, so it's not like you're going to kill very much in that time. Makes him feel kinda like a different offensive branch than the medic. Scout -> Medic keeps the conc movement and has some good DMing. Scout -> Pyro trades the instant, horizontal burst movement for a more vertical, damage over time class.

Also, it's a very slow kind of jump - he's easy targets for HWs, snipers, even to an extend sollies. Plus SGs, as mentioned, especially after the buff. It's going to be interesting to see how HW slowgrens work with him. I'm looking forward to some weird combos with that.

Although I do get the issue with having practically infinte ammo. The pyro only burns through 5 cells a second. Maybe that should be increased to 7 or 8? 10 would be too much, and 5 definitely isn't enough. Very rarely does the pyro ever run out of ammo.

Also it feels nothing like tribes

[Peon]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

It's THE class for when you want a lot of vertical movement.

-He's faster than solly, can jump a similar height as him rocket jumping (you can usually hit the skybox on most maps just from a flame trimp)

-He takes NO DAMAGE from this. None for the jump and none for the impact. Demomen can hit higher speeds and distance, but at a considerable cost. Their movement operates best in wide open spaces, pyros can handle pretty much any terrain. Sollys have a couple hop moves they can execute a little faster that pyro, but it's borderline and soaks their damage as well.

-You can do it again and again. Hop from one building to the next, it's like playing Starsiege Tribes or something. You can reach high up areas with ease. You can take complicated routes casually that wouldn't be worth it for other classes. Other classes run out of concs or health fast, but he has a full ammo load.

-It's easy to execute. Beginners can pick it up far easier than reliable concing I think.

-Coupled with one grenade you can launch into orbit.

-It's practically an escape path from anyone who's not a sniper if you're outdoors. Someone on your ass? Do a flame trimp or grenade jump combo. You will take a LONG time to come down, moreso than most people want to wait around for.

As for balance breaking, I say it all depends on the map. Some maps his abilities are almost pointless, others he's a nightmare

All of this.

Plus, I'd like to add his abilities as an ambush class and a Spy sweeper. The most obvious class of choice to ambush is the Heavy, where you prime a napalm, hit him with the IC, release the napalm, and hose him down with flame.......level 3 burn and dead in about 3 seconds!

Also, the Pyro's Spy sweeping ability is unparalleled........you have lots of fire juice, so as a Pyro you should be spewing flame almost constantly. If a Spy is disguised or cloaked he's toast......this is a serious job for a defensive Pyro.

[FreaK367]

These days, most Pyros are very generic, using the 1 - 2 system, shoot with Cannon, chase after them holding down mouse 1 with the flamethrower, level 2 burn + constant flamethrower damage see's most enemies dead within seconds.

On the otherhand, some pyros like the achievement of getting a level 3 burn, it is more of a challenge to get a level 3 burn on an enemy than it is just to kill them... so that is a goal some people go for.

I've never found pyro appealing to play personally. Somewhat easy to kill enemies, but I prefer more of a challenge than just holding down mouse1 until they make a death noise. No aiming required.

And I don't think the IC or Flamer should be able to burn people through walls and glass. If you run behind a wall and a pyro shoots the other side with the IC, it sets you on fire. Makes no sense unless suddenly fire can travel through solid materials.

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by Raynian

...The game is too fast, both on offense and defense. Nothing feels worthwhile.

That post speaks volumes of truth. It's probably the most accurate post I've ever read on these forums. It's even more insane when you play Fortress Forever after having played other games with a manageable pace. It's as if the game just drops the enemies off at your front entrance after you kill them, and they hit the ground running at their max speed or some shit. This makes killing someone feel valueless and makes the game feel like perpetual team deathmatch.

Compare it to Team Fortress 2. The Sentry Gun has to be built up over time. It's not instant like Fortress Forever's. The trade-off is that when it is built up, it's a fucking beast. When you destroy that thing, you know you have a huge window of opportunity to move up. The effort is rewarded. The same goes for players. With the speeds required to get in position from spawn and the respawn delay, when you kill someone, it feels really rewarding. You know you won't be seeing them any time soon. The same being able to happen to you makes you play more conservatively, which I think increases the experience.

Everything in Fortress Forever feels disposable. Like Raynian says, it's all about throwing yourself at the defense until you find that break. Playing defense is pretty exhausting, but as pointed out, it's the more fun side of the equation. The pickup community might like this grinding sort of game-play, but it wears you down after a while, and is a massive turn-off to casual players. Couple this with the lack of any real incentive to do objectives in the pub (Gee whizz, a scoreboard? Some more points? What fucking fun!) and there's no wonder people are death-matching the slow classes in the yard on every match. It's because all it takes is one Scout with proficient concussion grenade skills to ruin the pub for everyone.

[Iggy]

I've been saying for quite a while that the game is a little too fast paced. It's not a huge margin that I think it needs to be toned down, but yes, noticable.

Bridget, I realize that you've brought up the idea of having "achievements" before, and now I understand why you were so vocal about that. You make a great point in that players need to feel "rewarded" with something other than points. Honestly, I don't think achievements is the way to go, unless they are meaningless as far as the gameplay goes. Maybe if we had some sort of global scoreboard that keeps track of total points(Caps, kills, deaths, fortress points, whatever), then points would matter more to them. Many other games have that feature.

As for a mobile SG... I'm all in favor of it, with a few stipulations: It either can't fire while being moved, or fires at a greatly reduced rate(balancing issue). It can't be moved quickly as if it weighs nothing(think of the movable crates in HL1... a little slower than that). Terrain should also affect the speed at which it moves.

[Peon]

Originally Posted by Bridget

It's even more insane when you play Fortress Forever after having played other games with a manageable pace. It's as if the game just drops the enemies off at your front entrance after you kill them, and they hit the ground running at their max speed or some shit........Compare it to Team Fortress 2..........With the speeds required to get in position from spawn and the respawn delay, when you kill someone, it feels really rewarding. You know you won't be seeing them any time soon.

Everything in Fortress Forever feels disposable. Like Raynian says, it's all about throwing yourself at the defense until you find that break. Playing defense is pretty exhausting, but as pointed out, it's the more fun side of the equation. The pickup community might like this grinding sort of game-play, but it wears you down after a while, and is a massive turn-off to casual players.

Dude......this is clearly not the game for you. You've outlined a laundry list of changes that need to be done in order cater to you......and then it would be TF2. So, what exactly is it about FF that keeps bringing you back here if hate most everything about the game? FF isn't much different mechanically than TFC, so you can't say it's because of love for classic TF. I mean, I've never gone to a TF2 forum and posted about how much I don't like the game.

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by Peon

Dude......this is clearly not the game for you. You've outlined a laundry list of changes that need to be done in order cater to you......and then it would be TF2. So, what exactly is it about FF that keeps bringing you back here if hate most everything about the game? FF isn't much different mechanically than TFC, so you can't say it's because of love for classic TF. I mean, I've never gone to a TF2 forum and posted about how much I don't like the game.

cue ff ignorance where any suggestion to accommodate beginners is dumbing the game down or making it tf2

[Dexter]

Originally Posted by Bridget

cue ff ignorance where any suggestion to accommodate beginners is dumbing the game down or making it tf2

laundry list

[episkopos]

To be fair to Bridget, his ideas would not make the game into TF2. In Bridget's vision for FF, conc jumping would still exist, but would be activated instantaneously by a single key press. Bunnyhopping would be Warsow-style, performed by holding W and jump. The concussion effect wouldn't exist on account of being a pointless annoyance. The sentry would take longer to construct but would be stronger when it was constructed. So maybe those last two make it slightly closer to TF2, but you know what, maybe the TF2 developers did do a few things right?

Bridget's main problems are his abrasive manner and the fact his ideas conflict with what the pickup community want. The pickup community like to stroke their dicks and feel skilled because they mastered difficult, counter-intuitive mechanics from ten years ago. I can sort of sympathise with that, it was what motivated me to get into FF. Is it any good for FF's long term survival? You be the judge of that.

I personally like FF CTF as it is. The AvD unbalance annoys me, and it will be interesting to see the effects of the slightly stronger SG push and new HWGuy abilities (even 99% O win to 90% O win would be progress).

[FreaK367]

Originally Posted by Iggy

I've been saying for quite a while that the game is a little too fast paced. It's not a huge margin that I think it needs to be toned down, but yes, noticable.

Bridget, I realize that you've brought up the idea of having "achievements" before, and now I understand why you were so vocal about that. You make a great point in that players need to feel "rewarded" with something other than points. Honestly, I don't think achievements is the way to go, unless they are meaningless as far as the gameplay goes. Maybe if we had some sort of global scoreboard that keeps track of total points(Caps, kills, deaths, fortress points, whatever), then points would matter more to them. Many other games have that feature.

Well, OT have their server on Gametrackers : http://www.gametracker.com/server_in...134.170:27016/ which has a list of the "best" players, but I am confused on how it collects data, and sadly it collects from Name only, so if you add a tag or change your name, it see's you as a different person... which isn't good.

And it isn't very consistent, for example it has some players down as playing over 900+ hours, thus having high scores, but I am listed in 33rd, having collected 167.12 hours of my playtime. Whereas even Steam are behind on how much I have played and still list me as 800+ hours on FF.

But that is the closest thing we have currently, zE's servers had a full ranking system, and so does Trailers current server, but those stats are based server side only.

The only problem with adding a system like what you suggest, would be if it starts from right now. It would be nice for us veterans to have our thousands of hours of gameplay to be included in the stats, so new people know who to look up to

I'd be up for either, the best way to get FF on the radar as many have said would be to get steam to acknowledge it as a mod, and have all of the little perks of a proper HL2 mod when looking at it through steam.

That would make achievements easier to do. I'd add achievements such as... accumulate 100,000 fortress points (per class, seperate achievements). Then 500,000 etc..., as Sniper kill 30 enemies with a headshot in one round. As sniper accumulate 1,000 headshots overall. As Scout, capture the flag 5 times in a row without dying in a round. As soldier, kill 20 enemies with the rocket launcher using direct hits in a round. As Engineer, kill 4 enemies with a single EMP grenade. As Engineer, Kill 15 enemies using the SG in a round. As Engineer, accumulate 1,000 SG kills. etc...

There are hundreds of achievements that could be added that in theory, could alter how people play for the better, getting Soldiers to look for direct hits insead of putting their gun to the ground, getting Snipers to look for skillful headshots, instead of leg shots. Get scouts to try harder, Engineers to keep their SG up for long periods of time, Spies to make more attempts at sabotaging SG's and backstabbing.

You get the idea.

I think Achievements, through steam would be a good option.