Next patch is in beta!

[SoBe Green]

Originally Posted by bokko

What glads me the most is that there is finally someone passionate about the game leading the development. After the release of TF2 and FF there seemed to be a general lack of direction.

Personally I like the new changes in theory and look forward to the release of 2.0. I have doubts about some things(Won't attacking medics just cover their defending teammates in medpacks as they spawn?) but the changes seem to be well though out and taking the mod in the right direction from my point of view.

I cannot believe some people are making a big fuss about the friggin caltrops. Can't comment on the pyro thing, but this was never a big problem before.
And everytime Sobe goes off on one of his rants we are reminded of why he will never be a beta tester.

#1. I never said I was never going to play FF. I even said I would play 2.0.

#2. I'm giving feedback on what I hear for planned changes. I've always said I'm open for trying new things but I hate the direction that was took with the Pyro. I can tell you already I don't have to play the game to know I do less damage than I did before. I could give two shits about grenade jumping. I care more about being less reliant on napalm and being able to take out a SG.

#3. I'm not trying to be a beta tester. I've said this once but I suppose bokko isn't intelligent enough to have read anything past the first word of every post.

#4. I could care less about the TF clan scene unless its TF2. The rest of the TF clan play is all garbled, disorganized, and not really worth messing with.

#5. If you play the beta, good for you, I haven't and most of us here haven't so we can only comment on what we hear. If some of you like it that means shit to us. The FF beta team has so far been pretty worthless for the past few patches I don't take the opinions from you with much worth. Sorry.

[Green Mushy]

With the new sentry gun health, will it die with 2 grenades now?

[4est]

Originally Posted by Green Mushy

With the new sentry gun health, will it die with 2 grenades now?

Yes - most of the time. They do require good placement. A nailgren completely owns and SG now. Also, the push for players in the air is MUCH better now. I've not had a chance to test bullet push against players on the ground.

[AfterShock]

Originally Posted by bokko

Won't attacking medics just cover their defending teammates in medpacks as they spawn?)

Medpacks disappear pretty sharpish if they arent used. It's just like a ranged heal basically, except with the feature that you can throw them down to teammates when you're camping high places in enemy flag rooms etc.

It shouldnt cause any balance issues due to the fact that medics can already heal people with their medkit, but it simply means that medics can heal people without getting right up close and receiving a grenade to the head (which is a big reason why a lot of medics are reluctant to heal).

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by SoBe Green

#1. I never said I was never going to play FF. I even said I would play 2.0.

#2. I'm giving feedback on what I hear for planned changes. I've always said I'm open for trying new things but I hate the direction that was took with the Pyro. I can tell you already I don't have to play the game to know I do less damage than I did before. I could give two shits about grenade jumping. I care more about being less reliant on napalm and being able to take out a SG.

#3. I'm not trying to be a beta tester. I've said this once but I suppose bokko isn't intelligent enough to have read anything past the first word of every post.

#4. I could care less about the TF clan scene unless its TF2. The rest of the TF clan play is all garbled, disorganized, and not really worth messing with.

#5. If you play the beta, good for you, I haven't and most of us here haven't so we can only comment on what we hear. If some of you like it that means shit to us. The FF beta team has so far been pretty worthless for the past few patches I don't take the opinions from you with much worth. Sorry.

You sound more and more bitter, and less intelligent with each post you make. Please do everyone a favor, and shut up until you have had a chance to actually PLAY the game. You whine more than a baby with a wet diaper.

You don't have to accept what we tell you about the updates, and personally, I could give a shit less if you like what you hear. But you have no right bad-mouthing the dev-team, or the beta-team. You want a better game? Go code one.

[chilledsanity]

While I like the sound of some of these changes, it seems to be crippling some of my favorite things about FF. I realize I'm in a minority, but I really don't care for CTF. What I love in FF are the offense/defense maps, cornfield and especially dustbowl. These changes sound like they're going to cripple any chance defense has left on those maps. Here's why:

-SG's are weaker and still have to "re-aquire" targets every time

-The jump pads, while they sound cool, will make it ludicrously easy for offense to cap points

-In Dustbowl demomen can't spam the gates anymore, which is a crucial tactic for holding back the defense (as it is now, most games result in the offense capping)

It doesn't sound like defense is getting anything to help them now, have you guys tried playing large games on dustbowl or cornfield where the defense manages to prevent offense from capping? If everything is moving towards CTF then as much as I hate to say it I think I'll have to abandon FF. This disappoints me because I friggin love dustbowl, but I'm lucky to even find a server that's playing it since there are so few players. Now these changes are going to make it impossible to play for a long round, I just don't see the point for non-ctf people anymore.

[Iggy]

Jump pads are not "easy caps" in waiting...trust me. SGs are still plenty powerfull, just a little more balanced than they were.
As for Demomen not being able to spam....whatever gave you that idea? They still have 8 pipes they can drop at once(6 in the launcher, plus 2)...4 frag nades, and 2 mirvs. Give it a chance, dude. I don't think A/D maps are going away! Lots of people love them!
Also, if there is some tweaking that needs to be done, don't quit the game, make it known! Some people like to cry and whine about things, but if you present your arguement in an intelligent manner, people will listen to you.

[greenday5494]

Originally Posted by Rutabeggar

The jump pad needs to be considered carefully. While I think a significant change such as this is what FF needs, the balance repercussions could really devastate the overall game play. I view the jump pad as FF's version of the teleporter...It's a need, I didn't like it when Valve introduced the teleporter to TFC, but now I can't imagine the game without it. Some of the mid-maps on the maps currently in rotation are way too vast, even for an engy who is turtling, or a pyro, so I really see how the jump pad can benefit. But something will have to be given to defense to balance it...I stated before perhaps allowing spies to sabotage jump pads and sending the team in the opposite direction while still allowing his team to use it, could really be interesting.

However, I think that you run the risk of people being scouts on A/D maps to SOLELY build jump pads...there are so many balance issues with it...almost reminds me of hooks in NeoTF.

I'm looking forward to seeing how the dev team tackles this challenge!

i completley agree. we must be very careful, even if it means releasing the patch without the jump pad, and the other stuff, and release the jump pad later. we need input not from only beta testers, but from the community as a whole. mabye release a watered-down version of the beta, with only one map, and its showcasing the jump pad, pretty much soley to gather input and test the jump pad. Thi is a major change, which requires major testing and inputs.

[greenday5494]

we need to include ff_training. even if its a single-player map, you could change some text-files around, make it a "single-player/multiplayer" game, according to the Source engine, but to us, instead of sometihng saying New Game, it'll say Training. And then script the map accordingly, to teahc people. Maybe even include 10 training maps, each for every class, and one for a general FF.

That would be awesome.



Oh and i think Stalker:Source did the same thing. We should do that too.

[AfterShock]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

It doesn't sound like defense is getting anything to help them now

3 major defense classes (demo, soldier, HW) are all getting serious changes.

The blue pipe change doesnt make the demoman worse, it makes him better, and a lot more fun to play.

I'm in major correspondance with AvD players and despite a large proportion of AvD players moving to TF2, I am still keen to maintain the avd community (as well as other communities such as the skills community). We play a lot of AvD as well as CTF, and believe me when i say AvD is a LOT more fun now

In previous patches, too often someone would sneak through with the flag on their own. With the increased pipe + rocket radius this is less likely to happen and is more of a team 'push them back' game. Of course there is still lots of room for individual skill, but just less of that annoying 'I missed him by an inch with my rocket so he caps and the map ends'. The scout jump pad further reinforces the team mentality and is balanced by the fact that the scout has such low health and has no concs on AvD. In fact I would say the scout is probably one of the most nerfed classes (pre-patch) in AvD right now.

[DD`]

Originally Posted by AfterShock

In other news:

RE: Wall friction - this has now been fixed. Concajumpers rejoice! We've emulated the 'walls don't cause slowdown' ala TFC, so concmaps should be playable again.

So will this be in 2.0 then? If so I can't wait for the patch!

[Jiggles]

If everything works out in testing, yes. Keep in mind that the changelog is not final. If something doesn't work out in testing it will be changed.

[slay2rr]

Does the scout radar have to go?

I was hoping for a change so that scouts don't need any cells for the radar, and it would be always on to give the scout full awareness of the postions of the enemy.

[chilledsanity]

As for Demomen not being able to spam....whatever gave you that idea? They still have 8 pipes they can drop at once(6 in the launcher, plus 2)...4 frag nades, and 2 mirvs. Give it a chance, dude. I don't think A/D maps are going away! Lots of people love them!

Well there's only 2 A/D maps right now v. 10 or more CTF ones.

As for spamming, the final stretch of dustbowl they don't have mirvs or grenades, and the ones prior to that, it's only at one location where grenades can get picked up. Yes, you can lay down pipes, but there's not much point in doing that past the start (until the flag advances) because you want to keep a constant suppressive force, not sit and wait. I don't think demomen stand a chance now at the gates because the offense all have 2 grenades for every life, which they'll be able to toss farther than blue bombs.

Also, if there is some tweaking that needs to be done, don't quit the game, make it known! Some people like to cry and whine about things, but if you present your arguement in an intelligent manner, people will listen to you.

Well I thought's what I did, I listed reasons why I thought it was going to break some gameplay modes. Again, has anyone tried the new version on dustbowl or cornfield where they were able to prevent the offense from capping? I mean if the game is balanced, that should only happen about half the time.

[KubeDawg]

Originally Posted by AfterShock

Medpacks disappear pretty sharpish if they arent used. It's just like a ranged heal basically, except with the feature that you can throw them down to teammates when you're camping high places in enemy flag rooms etc.

It shouldnt cause any balance issues due to the fact that medics can already heal people with their medkit, but it simply means that medics can heal people without getting right up close and receiving a grenade to the head (which is a big reason why a lot of medics are reluctant to heal).

AfterShock, could you make it so Medics drop health kits instead of Ammo bags? This way, it'd seem more natural when throwing them, as it's like throwing a regular bag, in fact, it'd be exactly like the Engi, but with med packs instead. That way it would leave open the +Attack2 to allow people to switch to their medkits.

[Credge]

I'm in the same boat as Sobe, except with a few different opinions.

1. The pyro, currently, isn't usable in a league format. His reliance on CQ as well as lowish speed and requirement to damage himself to get to the enemy base in a timely manner make him extremely unappealing. It doesn't matter how you land; the pyro doesn't have the base speed to ramp slide unless he uses a grenade.

2. The pyro needs to be able to achieve extreme efficiency without the use of his secondary grenades. An alternative would be for him to naturally gain grenades over time. Just secondary though. This would fix a lot of the issue with him, aside from speed.

3. The pyros reliance on cells makes him an extreme target against EMP's. More so than any other class (aside from scouts... which I assume is changing now that scouts won't use cells). EMP's do pathetic damage against any class that doesn't use cells. This should be adjusted a bit. 14 health damage and 20 armor damage to a medic is terrible. Test this for yourself before remarking that this isn't true. You'll come to realize that it is, just like the old SG thing.

4. Scouts are about speed and denial of speed via intelligent means (caltrops, concs, etc). While this is a team game, I feel that giving the scout a buildable is just an odd choice. I like the idea of the jump pad, but the scout should be all about speed and maneuverability.

4a. I can see the jump pad being a tool that grievers use constantly. Putting them in common tight spots (SD2's T, for example) can cause frustration for both D and O. While it might be strategic in league play, it will be a major annoyance in pubs. Please test this.

Please, please, please try to break what you implemented. Others will try and will abuse it. I can see some of these things being used as tools of grief more than tools for teamwork.

I'm unsure on the state of the HW in the patch, however, he's really only good in certain spots on certain maps, and only if you have (about) 4 defenders. Currently he's mainly used to stand on the flag or in doorways so the enemy can't get by. This should change.

All in all, I'm excited for the patch, but I'm really disappointed in how everything has been handled. By this, I mean the elitist attitude of testers and developers coupled with the "Oh, you'll see how it is" crap that is a major turn off.

It reminds me of what the HG:L people said about it. "Oh, we know what we are doing. We made Diablo 2. You'll see when it comes out."

How about some videos of the jump pad in action with the various classes, on, say, aardvark? Simple minute long video would be nice.

Edit: Or maybe some pictures instead of just descriptions of how the jump pad is.

[shadow]

I don't think they have the jump pad working the way they want it yet anyway so it might be a little unreasonable to expect a video.

It's been made clear that noone is going to change their minds at this stage. We'll just have to wait for 2.0 to come out before our complaints are legitmate... and when the time comes, we can reiterate them.

[Credge]

Originally Posted by shadow

It's been made clear that noone is going to change their minds at this stage.

And that's the thing that has me worried. You can have the best people in the world (FSS and Sigil) and have the great base of a game (VG and HG:L) and ruin it because people are set in their ways.

Also, why all the secrecy? This isn't cloverfield.

[Jiggles]

Well, I don't think we're being "elitist," because we want people to experience it rather than just seeing it as a dry entry on a changelog. However, we can't make everybody's version of FF. Even if we somehow could, the games wouldn't be compatible

That being said, we're not ignoring anyone in this thread. It's just that we'd like to see how some of our ideas play out before instantly shooting them down as unworkable, game-breaking, or whatever. Again, not to be elitist, but I think you can see why most "real" game developers refrain from posting directly on their own forums. And those that don't often end up like Derek Smart. It's no fun to see your hours and hours of work being trashed in a few sentences (or many, depending )

Edit:

Originally Posted by Credge

Also, why all the secrecy? This isn't cloverfield.

All what secrecy? We posted pretty much our entire work-in-progress changelog. Releasing screenshots really wouldn't do justice to most of the changes, and videos of decent quality take a while to produce (and videos of not-so-decent-quality make FF look bad).

[4est]

Guys, look at FF's history. Settings have been raised... and lowered. Ideas have been implemented and then later discarded. Weapons have been buffed and nerfed. Old game mechanics have been thrown out only to later be brought back.

What about that implies that the Dev team is set in it's ways? I've posted this several times before and I'll post it again:

FF is going to change and evolve.

This is not a static "take it or leave it" production. New things could get added, old things could get removed and even some removed items could get brought back.




BTW, chilledsanity, I don't think the remarks suggesting people present an argument in an intelligent manner were referring to you. You did make the type of post we like to see. ADL type play is important to us and we do keep it in consideration. I've even pestered league admins and former ADL "leet" players about it. Right now ADL is in a very bad state even in TFC. They have dropped to only 5v5. TF2 seem to have consumed most of the ADL scene.

Hopefully, we'll get more ADL players, mappers and maps soon. An ADL league and community would be great to have. I'd personally like to see it as ADL pubbing is a blast.