FF 2.3 released!

[xks]

Not a whole lot to shout about, but then it's not a major release so that's alright.

Sad to see the grenades removed from the upper spawn on SD2, if this is what the change was talking about anyway. It's a tough map to defend on even with that grenade pack, without it and it's going to be a lot harder, especially since SG's are 90% useless on that map. I would love to know why it was changed

Nice to see the security timer reduced on Aardvark and the one sniper limit is alright, although I don't see much reason why it shouldn't be two which is often a reasonable compromise on a server with 20 people on it. The one sniper limit makes it a lot more important to have a good sniper in that role and if a poor player takes it on your team and the other team has a good sniper, your Offence is going to be impacted a lot more than the opposition and the sniper on your team will almost never give up his role.

I wonder if the HWGuy tracer bug was fixed too. The one where you see random tracers flying through walls coming from nothing when a HWGuy shoots at another location on the map.

Anyway, 2.3 seems like a small improvement so that's a good thing.

[shadow]

so what exactly was broken about aarkvark that warranted making it even more aggravating to o against in pubs? (ie, allowing engineers to somehow dominate even more on that map)

[SkullBash]

OMFG! I just downloaded the 2.2 full install! Hours before the 2.3 release. lol

[R22B]

I was just playing and no one wants to play Aardvark because of the one sniper limit.

It was nice being able to cross IMO.

[xks]

Originally Posted by shadow

so what exactly was broken about aarkvark that warranted making it even more aggravating to o against in pubs? (ie, allowing engineers to somehow dominate even more on that map)

Engineers dominated? Maybe three Engi's against a lone Scout on O, but I've never seen a proper O stopped on pub played Aardvark.

[caesium]

Originally Posted by shadow

so what exactly was broken about aarkvark that warranted making it even more aggravating to o against in pubs? (ie, allowing engineers to somehow dominate even more on that map)

i don't really understand what you're asking, as i think the engy has actually been de-powered quite a lot on this map for public play (at least the "let's build sg's top ramp" tactic has, and will be much more once we have the new sg), but here's an overview of the changes in terms of both organised and public play:

- all metal has been removed from top ramp bag to make sg's there much harder on public servers (it's more fun for everyone when the sg's are in the flag room when the flag is in the flag room!..). we also need the new sg build/upgrade system that's coming in the next patch to properly implement this (i.e. stop sg's going up really quickly in a fl position like that), but getting the map ready is obviously important too.

- the sniper limit will hopefully make getting heavier classes to the enemy base (if you want to use one to destroy an sg, especially easy to get a top ramp one, for example) much easier and less frustrating on public servers.

- the map has been broken for orgnaised play for a long time (offy/def balance). i've been waiting for the new HW before attempting to rebalance it, but now we have the new HW it's clear that the security timer needed reducing in order to give the def bitesize "security down" phases that they can prepare for and stand a chance of surviving before preparing for the next one. yes, this will make it harder to offy on public servers too, but i think the other changes will more than counter this for pubs (especially once we have the new sg, as i keep saying).

[Hawk Eye]

There's just something about FF screenshots when they're shrunk down to thumbnail size.. it's just so pretty.

edit: also
"Added lowercase c "Broadcast" functions, because uppercase C "BroadCast" functions are lame"

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by xks

Sad to see the grenades removed from the upper spawn on SD2, if this is what the change was talking about anyway.

That's not the change. The spawnpoints in the upper respawn were removed, meaning you only spawn at the lower respawn (the upper respawn is now just a resupply room). All the packs are still there.

[betterschindt]

wow a dev side sniper limit on a map...!
shouldnt that be left up to server admins?

and if not, shouldnt it at least be maxed at 2 each??

i mean if one teams sniper is crazy good and the other teams sniper sucks, it will be even worse for people crossing the yard. trust me on this i can take on 3 snipers at once and still hit the offense, now if i only have to worry about some noob i will basically have target practice. having two snipers also creates more paranoia , for instance if i just killed their noob sniper, i know i have at least 30 sec maybe a minute to just shoot away, where as if there are more, then i have to worry about other snipers first before going after the slow ass soldier crossing the yard. but hey its cool the now all the crybabies can cry even more

[KubeDawg]

Originally Posted by betterschindt

wow a dev side sniper limit on a map...!
shouldnt that be left up to server admins?

and if not, shouldnt it at least be maxed at 2 each??

i mean if one teams sniper is crazy good and the other teams sniper sucks, it will be even worse for people crossing the yard. trust me on this i can take on 3 snipers at once and still hit the offense, now if i only have to worry about some noob i will basically have target practice. having two snipers also creates more paranoia , for instance if i just killed their noob sniper, i know i have at least 30 sec maybe a minute to just shoot away, where as if there are more, then i have to worry about other snipers first before going after the slow ass soldier crossing the yard. but hey its cool the now all the crybabies can cry even more

I completely agree. But isn't this something that can be edited via lua code?

If so, a simple map configuration to make the sniper limit be set to 1 would do the trick and be a lot easier for people to edit, considering lua code isn't the easiest code to learn.

[Skanky Butterpuss]

caesium is the mapper, he made the change. that change makes me happy.

[caesium]

i want to encourage ppl to actually learn how to help their team complete the objectives (capture the enemy flag and defend their own), as that ultimately is a far deeper, unique, and more satisfying experience. multiple snipers midmap doesn't help your team much at all (see past discussions as to why, and we can give a demonstration if you rly like), and it's also very frustrating for new players (who can't conc) trying to get to the enemy base.

however, many ppl rly enjoy sniping (myself included!..), and allowing a single sniper does serve a role for balancing the use of heavy/light classes on offy without re-igniting the issues above. this is why i've set the current limit of 1. i fully agree that the problem with this limit of 1 is that if someone has taken the spot on your team then it could be frustrating if you want to snipe, but allowing any more than one (on a server with ~8/10 ppl) reverts us to the problems above that are un-noob-friendly and do not help ppl learn how to play the game and in doing so show them what is so cool about it. i'd be v happy with trying making it so that the limit increases to 2 when there are more than 8 ppl on the server if that would satisfy more ppl, but we need to do something to address this issue before FF is ready for new players.

i think that what it all comes down to really is that the current sniper, however much fun i have playing it, does not fit with the gamemode and needs an overhaul. but until then, limiting snipers where they are creating a barrier to the actual core gameplay is a good start and worth experimenting with.

[KubeDawg]

caesium, then why not just let server owners choose the sniper limit? I really don't see the problem with leaving it that way. I personally used a 2 sniper limit across all my maps except for sniper maps, and it's relatively simple to configure. Now, it's forced, and if it's a change made to lua code, it's going to be more difficult or confusing for people to remove that sniper limit.

[GeoKill----->]

naw you can just make a map.cfg for it or do it via lua

[bowser]

bowser: maybe make the medpack easier to heal with then because its bullshit the way it is.

Squeek: It's Planned

sweet i'd love it if it was made better. !! <3

[teh_rape]

I dont really understand why the top respawn in sd2 was made only into a resupply. While I will admit I haven't played it yet, I can only imagine the aggravation of playing d vs medics on that map and having to run all the way up the ramp to get back to flag room every single time you die. That was one of the few ff maps where in league play it was a possible total score of less than 100. Now that spawn is farther away; not that it will be a capfest, but it will definitely be easier if you take one or two out a run.
can someone explain the logic behind this change?

[betterschindt]

@caesium
i totally understand your view point and thats why i tried to back up my arguments with viable scenarios that will likely happen instead of just saying "GAWD MAN I WANT TO SNIPE!"

so far the only scenario you see is that yes the single sniper slot will be taken and a lot of people will be sad they cant snipe. thats fine, that happens on the 2sniper limit maps too. thats not the point i am trying to make.

im trying to tell you that it will not solve this problem not of letting heavier classes attack more. i truly think it will be worse. seriously, a good sniper will be able to kill everyone if he only has to worry about one sniper on the other team.
obv its too late now so we can see what happens, but i guarantee there will be more bitching now, especially when a good sniper takes that spot against a bad sniper, which i think will be a very common scenario.

[xks]

Originally Posted by caesium

we also need the new sg build/upgrade system that's coming in the next patch to properly implement this (i.e. stop sg's going up really quickly in a fl position like that), but getting the map ready is obviously important too.

On most maps it's rather difficult to get a level 3 SG that does anything before it's MIRV'd by the one or two kamikaze demomen that each team typically has on publics these days.

Should make the SG more customisable I think. An attack mode, defence mode and normal mode. In attack mode the SG locks on quickly, tracks fast and has substantial push at a trade off of less armour or it being irrepairable until the mode is changed. In defence mode the SG would lock slowly, track slower, do less damage and have the same push level it has now but it could withstand a large amount of damage, for example one entire MIRV without being destroyed. Normal would of course be a standard balanced SG.

Not the place for such a suggestion maybe, but it came off the top of my head when I started to think about SG balance. Having different modes for the SG would allow them to be placed in a wider variety of locations with differing effects and the tactics used to bypass them might have to change from running up and press g as a demoman :P

[EquilibriuM]

Simple fix, del lua replace with 2.2 lua. That is all, good day sir's!

[caesium]

betterschindt: if it turns out that on public servers a good sniper can now completely dominate the midmap then ofc we'll rethink (the whole intention of limiting snipers is to stop that!). it seems our basic difference in opinion is that i believe having less snipers will always mean there's a lower chance of a low-skilled player getting sniped midmap, whereas you don't seem to agree with this (i.e. limit of 1 is a special case). this is all an iterative process though, so we need to try things to see how it works, and this limit seems a sensible starting place. it could also be pretty pointless use of thought/time if it's only a temporary solution, as when the sniper gets his overhaul there shouldn't be any limits needed for the reasons we currently do.

Originally Posted by KubeDawg

caesium, then why not just let server owners choose the sniper limit? I really don't see the problem with leaving it that way.

umm, the lua is easily editable by the server owner (it's really easy, see below). i put it in the map's lua rather than make a map cfg just because we don't have a cfg for it so saw no reason to clutter things up. if ppl are more comfortable with editing a cfg than a lua then sure we could move it to a cfg, but that's a minor detail and it's the bigger picture i'm trying to get right first.

Originally Posted by EquilibriuM

Simple fix, del lua replace with 2.2 lua. That is all, good day sir's!

no, definitely don't do that as it will stop the bags and the security system from working. if you want to enable more than one sniper on your map just EDIT the 2.3 lua (it's really obvious how [ctrl-f "sniper"]).

teh_rape: with a good defence you can do a tight job on quite a few maps now against any offy, but i agree that too many are still retarded capfests (the new sg will help this). anyway, with regard to sd2, the intention is to address luck and balance issues on the map, not to turn it into a capfest. here's a paste from the original post that started the discussions on the sd2 spawn change:

Originally Posted by caesium

i've been thinking about this for ages, and i think the solution to this map is really simple: the current top respawn should only be a resupply (everyone should spawn at the bottom one). this then makes dming the top ramp defender useful as he won't sometimes just spawn back in position with full everything, removes the random spawn luck, and allows us to balance the top ramp defence and engy by giving appropriate resources in the top resupply.

xks: the new sg system is already implemented in the dev version but has not been configured yet. the new system basically makes it much more of a significant step to take down the sg (which makes offy more rewarding, varied, and interesting), and this then also allows us to make the sg more powerful at higher levels without unbalancing the game. i think it will be a big improvement.