Class Speeds - What do you think needs to be changed, if anything?

[KubeDawg]

There's something fundamentally wrong with the speed of certain classes in this game. Is having the majority of classes being at the same speed or near the same speed a hindrance to FF, and if so, why?

Current Speeds (per second):
Scout - 400units
Medic - 320units
Sniper - 300units
Engineer - 300units
Pyro - 300units
Spy - 300units
Soldier - 240units
Demoman - 280units
Civilian - 230units
HW Guy - 230units

Here's how I think they should be set:

Scout - 385units - Too fast as is. People see the Scout fly across the map and likely get discouraged. I think slowing this class down a small amount would be a good thing.
Medic - 340units - Scout used to be played a lot less in TFC than in FF and that's simply for the fact that scout is too damn fast in comparison. A small bump in speed would be my suggestion for the Medic.
Engineer - 290units - The Engineer has a good amount of equipment he carries around. Cells have to weigh something, right? I mean how heavy does a Sentry Gun weigh? Realistically, the Engi should be slower.
Pyro - 280units - This actually gives people a fighting chance to get away before being RAPED by the flamethrower. Add 10 units in speed if the Flamethrower eventually gets nerfed...
Sniper - 300units - No real reason, because sniper is pretty useless as is. No change.
Spy - 310units - The spy has maybe 1 weapon that would qualify as semi-heavy and that is the double shotgun. Couple that with a silenced pistol, a knife and a nailgun, the spy should be faster than it is right now.
Soldier - 250units - Soldier should be more of a contender in this game considering how weak the Rocket Launcher is. Increase the RPG damage or increase speed by 10 units.
Demoman - 280units - Demo has a pretty much perfect speed as is. I don't see a need to change the speed here.
Civilian - 250units - He may be fat, but he's also limber and without any weapon other than a fucking umbrella, why is this class so slow? Also, why doesn't the Civi have an umbrella feature that allows him to float using the umbrella? Also, why hasn't this melee weapon been turned into a gun?
HW Guy - 235units - Heaviest class shouldn't really get much of a speed increase. Heavy was beefed up this update and I doubt it needs much more.

[moosh]

Umbrella gun holy shit give me twenty

[FreaK367]

If the rocket launcher got a damage increase I'd quit FF altogether, I consider the Soldier to be the opposite of weak. Apart from the Laser Grenade, everything else is fine.

It may not be a very speedy class, but the rocket jump can launch the soldier quite large distances. And if needed, I see soldiers use a rocket+grenade jump which can launch them almost entirely across the yard of Aardvark for example, which they often use to chase the flag carrier.

I agree with the rest though more or less, especially lowering the pyro speed, because again they can just turn their IC to the floor for a jump or just point their flamethrower away and bhop, and gain higher speeds to fly across maps.

[KubeDawg]

You bring up good points. The point I was trying to make about the soldier though is that if you compare with TFC(it's the only other fortress game I've played so I have no idea if this was similar in qtf or others), the soldier's RPG is weak, albeit he is faster, but that's just because the game is faster than TFC.

[eomoyaff]

To be honest, I'm not sure why the you'd nerf the speed of a scout. Too fast is what the scout is, and should be. He has nothing else but his speed..

Other then that, I actually like where everything is right now. I've tested all classes on two different levels of play, and have to say that I'm comfortable with the rate of everything, no offense.

Also, I think that unless the dev team asked you to make this thread, I wouldn't see a purpose in it, if it wasn't initially posted by one of them. The reason why I say this is because multiple people (including myself) have pulled up threads like this, and it just starts bad arguements and eventually flame wars over what should or shouldn't change, and the Dev's weren't considering it anyway. It was just brought up out of the blue "Hey, we should change this, except I can't code, or anything, so my thread is just one big what if."

Get what I'm saying man? Not trying to cut down on you, just saying this is kind of pointless unless appointed by a developer.

[Crazycarl]

A good idea will be considered no matter where it comes from. That said, I don't agree with any of Kube's changes except perhaps slowing down pyro (if we indeed want to make him more defense oriented). I wouldn't mind slowing down all classes across the board.

[episkopos]

Originally Posted by KubeDawg

Scout - 385units - Too fast as is. People see the Scout fly across the map and likely get discouraged. I think slowing this class down a small amount would be a good thing.

Scout has nothing but his speed, so he needs every bit of it. And a reduction as small as that wouldn't make him seem any slower to a casual observer.

The reason people get discouraged is FF is difficult to pick up and play compared with other shooters, people often don't behave pleasantly to newcomers, and expect them to automatically know all the unwritten rules. There's also the fact that on the surface it seems similar to TF2, so where it deviates from TF2 people perceive it to be inferior ("ZOMG battle MEdic!!!!1!1!").

Originally Posted by KubeDawg

Medic - 340units - Scout used to be played a lot less in TFC than in FF and that's simply for the fact that scout is too damn fast in comparison. A small bump in speed would be my suggestion for the Medic.

I'd be okay with this, though I'd rather the Medic were buffed some other way.

Originally Posted by KubeDawg

Engineer - 290units - The Engineer has a good amount of equipment he carries around. Cells have to weigh something, right? I mean how heavy does a Sentry Gun weigh? Realistically, the Engi should be slower.

I don't think a change should be made purely for the sake of realism. FF is not a realistic game.

Originally Posted by KubeDawg

Pyro - 280units - This actually gives people a fighting chance to get away before being RAPED by the flamethrower. Add 10 units in speed if the Flamethrower eventually gets nerfed...

Yes, this would be good.

Originally Posted by KubeDawg

Sniper - 300units - No real reason, because sniper is pretty useless as is. No change.

I'd make him slower, maybe 260, so it takes longer for him to reposition after being killed.

Originally Posted by KubeDawg

Spy - 310units - The spy has maybe 1 weapon that would qualify as semi-heavy and that is the double shotgun. Couple that with a silenced pistol, a knife and a nailgun, the spy should be faster than it is right now.

I don't really see this as a problem, though I don't like the realism argument. Balance should always trump realism. I think the main problem with the spy is how much being sneaky slows you down. He needs a bigger reward for the sheer time investment required to infiltrate the enemy flagroom. (But that's for another thread.)

Originally Posted by KubeDawg

Soldier - 250units - Soldier should be more of a contender in this game considering how weak the Rocket Launcher is. Increase the RPG damage or increase speed by 10 units.

Soldier is already good enough in my opinion, though I wouldn't mind this so much if Medic got a bigger speed increase.

Originally Posted by KubeDawg

Civilian - 250units - He may be fat, but he's also limber and without any weapon other than a fucking umbrella, why is this class so slow? Also, why doesn't the Civi have an umbrella feature that allows him to float using the umbrella? Also, why hasn't this melee weapon been turned into a gun?

Probably a good idea. Especially the umbrella gun.

Originally Posted by KubeDawg

HW Guy - 235units - Heaviest class shouldn't really get much of a speed increase. Heavy was beefed up this update and I doubt it needs much more.

HWGuy is fine as is.

[FreaK367]

Probably a good idea. Especially the umbrella gun.

The Civilian is probably the most useless class, and is only used in very few maps, for the sake of those maps though, maybe model a new umbarella that has a melee normal attack, but when you secondary attack, the umbarella is also a shotgun, with a single shell, but with huge knockback, and after firing the Civilian loads another shell into the top. So very slow firing, but with nice knockback.

I think that would work well in Hunted, so if a spy comes near, or someone who the Hunted is suspicious of, he could blast them, and if it is a spy, the knockback would be quite high so he would fly back and then the bodyguards could finish the spy off, if they are doing their job. Also on maps like Waterpolo, the Civilian "keeper" would be able to blast attackers back to then finish them off with the melee, because it's quite easy to avoid the Civ.

[Agent Buckshot Moose]

Don't agree with any of these.

One particular note about the pyro: if you make him slower he needs more stopping power. He can kill people very quickly, but he can't really stop them from moving forward. That's necessary on defense, and slow speed = defense.

[Raynian]

Only change needed is -40 movespeed on sniper.

[FreaK367]

Originally Posted by Raynian

Only change needed is -40 movespeed on sniper.

Do you just spew sniper hate in every thread?

Why do you hate them so much?

[angrypyro]

Originally Posted by Raynian

Only change needed is -40 movespeed on sniper.

Changing the speed of the sniper wouldn't do anything for balance. The sniper can't even move while charging and most of the sniping spots are right outside spawn on most maps.

[Pixel]

Originally Posted by KubeDawg

Scout - 385units - Too fast as is. People see the Scout fly across the map and likely get discouraged. I think slowing this class down a small amount would be a good thing.
Medic - 340units - Scout used to be played a lot less in TFC than in FF and that's simply for the fact that scout is too damn fast in comparison. A small bump in speed would be my suggestion for the Medic.

But the only reason to play scout is to be faster than medic.

[KubeDawg]

Well I don't pretend to know the magic formula to what will work best, but I still think the scout will be fast as hell even with a slowdown. Medic being 45 units slower is quite a bit.

[BinaryLife]

All I will say is this, Scouts need to be fast for their class to have a purpose. An in game limit however, is when they are so fast that they can strafe kill a heavier class like a soldier or HW because they simply cannot shoot and aim fast enough to kill them. A scout should not feel compelled to engage a heavy class one on one and win. They should always rely on their movement ability to run away and focus on capturing the flag, taking out SG's, snipers and other important defensive structure's. In other words, they should be a scout. Their class shouldn't overlap with the medic's, pyro's or soldier's.

The only way to control this is to control the speed that these classes run on. Right now, I feel the scout is a little too fast, and the medic is a little to slow. With the above mentioned guidelines and all of your associative numeric to speed knowledge I'm sure a balanced and fair solution is possible.

[reaper18]

Originally Posted by BinaryLife

All I will say is this, Scouts need to be fast for their class to have a purpose. An in game limit however, is when they are so fast that they can strafe kill a heavier class like a soldier or HW because they simply cannot shoot and aim fast enough to kill them. A scout should not feel compelled to engage a heavy class one on one and win. They should always rely on their movement ability to run away and focus on capturing the flag, taking out SG's, snipers and other important defensive structure's. In other words, they should be a scout. Their class shouldn't overlap with the medic's, pyro's or soldier's.

The only way to control this is to control the speed that these classes run on. Right now, I feel the scout is a little too fast, and the medic is a little to slow. With the above mentioned guidelines and all of your associative numeric to speed knowledge I'm sure a balanced and fair solution is possible.

I wouldn't say the scout is too fast. Given the recent changes to defense id say the scout's speed is all he really has. With the way sgs are now, its almost useless to commit a run to destroying it, because by the time you get back to the enemy base, the enemy engineer already has one up and its usually lvl 3 to top it off. In most cases its better for the scout to just run altogether than engage. For that, the engineer should get a speed decrease to compensate for his fast build times.
The sniper should also. It doesnt make sense that he can be so fast and have a rifle thats not only hitscan, but can charge and instakill. If you want to keep the sniper fast, give him a projectile based sniper. Something bad company 2-esque. If you make the bullet take time to travel to its target, and maybe drop over a certain distance, it adds a whole new element. Now, not only do you have to lead your target, you have to practice and play to be good at sniper. Just like soldier or scout. Im not proposing it take 20 seconds to travel 100 meters, its velocity would need testing, but it would be a lot more fun to play sniper, and when getting gibbed from some asshole thats been sitting in the same corner of the map for 2 hours, at least you know it took some good aim to make that shot.
This game has a pace that is unlike any other and it keeps me coming back. Im sure a few others could say the same.

[FreaK367]

Originally Posted by reaper18

The sniper should also. It doesnt make sense that he can be so fast and have a rifle thats not only hitscan, but can charge and instakill. If you want to keep the sniper fast, give him a projectile based sniper. Something bad company 2-esque. If you make the bullet take time to travel to its target, and maybe drop over a certain distance, it adds a whole new element. Now, not only do you have to lead your target, you have to practice and play to be good at sniper. Just like soldier or scout. Im not proposing it take 20 seconds to travel 100 meters, its velocity would need testing, but it would be a lot more fun to play sniper, and when getting gibbed from some asshole thats been sitting in the same corner of the map for 2 hours, at least you know it took some good aim to make that shot.
This game has a pace that is unlike any other and it keeps me coming back. Im sure a few others could say the same.

It would make sniper almost pointless to play if it had bullet drop and took time to reach the target. People who get killed by sniper a lot generally hate the class and don't bother learning it, which is why a lot of vocal people want it nerfed. If the devs wanted to listen to them, they would need to be careful in what way they nerfed the sniper, and it would need to make sense.

To add bullet drop it would need to apply to other weapons too. Like the nail gun, the nails go stupidly slowly, and in a straight line, for long distances. And it's a crappy little nail gun, the sniper rifle is the Snipers main weapon, and takes 5 seconds to charge a powerful shot, for that shot then to be so un-powerful that it drops over distance, when no other weapons do. Makes no sense atall. Even if it was a projectile based sniper, to have bullet drop for the most powerful shot per shot weapon in the game... doesn't work unless every other weapon gets nerfed.

Talking about the current sniper rifle though, the only thing that wouldn't be too bad with bullet drop for the sniper rifle, is if any charge under 3.5 seconds, the bullet drops over distances slowly, but 3.5+ seconds of charge on the sniper rifle, it has no bullet drop. Because if I was a sniper and waited 5 seconds to finally shoot someone, I wouldn't want to have to calculate the bullet drop, speed of the bullet, and speed of the enemy before shooting. Those are the sort of things you do in a serious war game or something.

To make the sniper slower, he should put on some weight . Because the sniper is a very thin model, and the sniper rifle and AR are both fairly small weapons, so as it is, there is no reason why the sniper should be slow in my opinion, that would make sense, he carries nothing very heavy, has no secondary grenades and only one source of ammo for both the sniper rifle and auto rifle. No deployable or any extras. And is killed very easily.