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Old 01-24-2008, 08:04 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AfterShock
Answering your questions: A scout gets 1. It takes ~ 1 sec to build. It's about the same base size as a SG but only chest height. It self destructs on a timer. It's invincible to enemy fire. Enemies can use it. You can't det it. (the pad will be the subject to this weekends beta test so this could change!)
Make the jump pad like a SG or Dispenser that a scout can det/dismantle?


Quote:
Originally Posted by AfterShock
RE: Caltrops

Caltrops are an ability which annoy the other team, rather than increasing the enjoyment of your team. The jump pad is the opposite. Caltrops are usually placed in the enemy base near defensive positions. Defenders stand there and as soon as they are placed they know where the caltrops are and don't stand on them. Offense come running in and get spiked. The only time they are useful is when defenders accidentally tread on them (didn't know there were there), and theres not much skill in accidentally treading on something. It's like being headshot by an aimbotter, nothing you can do about it except smash your head on your keyboard

Caltrops are also guilty to spawn spamming, front door spamming, etc. Stuff like that ruins the game. Yes i can see why they can be beneficial in certain situations, HOWEVER, the jump pad will be much better and I hope you'll thank me for it in the long run!
What's wrong with annoyances? There is strategy to dropping caltrops, especially in narrow hallways where there isn'tmuch movement. Plus, the way the new caltrops work, you can place them anywhere you want, to increase the effectiveness. It also DOES increase enjoyment of my team, because as soon as, say an HW, or a Soldier is caltropped, and I'm running away with the flag, it allows me to cap a bit easier than without them. And I'm glad you mentioned the enmy offense getting caltropped too, because that does slow down the enemy offense, which is another good strategy, right? This gives your defense a better chance to kill the enemy offense... Accidental? You mean to say that running over a dropped grenade is also accidental? If that's the case, remove all grenades. The point I'm trying to present is this: With caltrops in the game, is keeps another level of depth in the game. Making things easier, isn't necessarily going to make Fortress Forever a better game. If you are the enemy, and you see a scout, or hear a scout, you need to beware that there might be caltrops dropped somewhere, so it's best to avoid them. If the enemy players were smart enough, they could get around the caltrops with little effort most of the time. Just like if a nade is thrown in your direction, your reaction time plays a big factor on how hard that nade will damage you.

You can place a Sentry gun at an enemies spawn door, and that'd be considered spam, right? So why not just simply remove the sentry gun altogether? /sarcasm. The same goes for other grenades too. By adding the jump pad, it will increase the mirv spamming as demomen/hwguys will have quicker access to the enemy base.
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Old 01-24-2008, 08:10 PM   #62
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this thread is funny...lol
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Old 01-24-2008, 08:12 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KubeDawg
Make the jump pad like a SG or Dispenser that a scout can det/dismantle?




What's wrong with annoyances? There is strategy to dropping caltrops, especially in narrow hallways where there isn'tmuch movement. Plus, the way the new caltrops work, you can place them anywhere you want, to increase the effectiveness. It also DOES increase enjoyment of my team, because as soon as, say an HW, or a Soldier is caltropped, and I'm running away with the flag, it allows me to cap a bit easier than without them. And I'm glad you mentioned the enmy offense getting caltropped too, because that does slow down the enemy offense, which is another good strategy, right? This gives your defense a better chance to kill the enemy offense... Accidental? You mean to say that running over a dropped grenade is also accidental? If that's the case, remove all grenades. The point I'm trying to present is this: With caltrops in the game, is keeps another level of depth in the game. Making things easier, isn't necessarily going to make Fortress Forever a better game. If you are the enemy, and you see a scout, or hear a scout, you need to beware that there might be caltrops dropped somewhere, so it's best to avoid them. If the enemy players were smart enough, they could get around the caltrops with little effort most of the time. Just like if a nade is thrown in your direction, your reaction time plays a big factor on how hard that nade will damage you.

You can place a Sentry gun at an enemies spawn door, and that'd be considered spam, right? So why not just simply remove the sentry gun altogether? /sarcasm. The same goes for other grenades too. By adding the jump pad, it will increase the mirv spamming as demomen/hwguys will have quicker access to the enemy base.

i'm revoking your beta license...
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Old 01-24-2008, 08:14 PM   #64
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All looks good to me. It is a lot better then we got
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Old 01-24-2008, 08:16 PM   #65
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Way to go guys great job keep up the good work, this game is great and can be great it just needs fixing and tweaking up which is what you guys are doing, great job at it also.
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Old 01-24-2008, 08:46 PM   #66
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I must tell you this, the new patch will be enjoyed by one and all. Some information has been left out, but if everything was disclosed...there would be no surprises, would there?

The jump-pad is not overpowered, and it works quite well. As I said, everyone should like it.
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Old 01-24-2008, 08:54 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy
Some information has been left out, but if everything was disclosed...there would be no surprises, would there?
let's hope some of our big mouth beta's dont say anything!!!
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Old 01-24-2008, 08:56 PM   #68
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let's hope some of our big mouth beta's dont say anything!!!
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Old 01-24-2008, 09:04 PM   #69
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ok ok, i'll tell you...there is a new model, modeled after Nodnarb, with boobs!!, and one hanging out. [AE] 5316 *TKZ* is currently working on the different skins, so far we only have pink. this model will be selectable for civilian only...

i recently brought up a slight problem with this model, if i see "Nodnarb" running at me with a blood decal, its going to wig me out. i mean seriously, if your g/f was covered in blood and running at you are you going to stand there and swing or just flat out fucking run? my ass is running...

oh then, dont get me started on Dr. Satan's suggestion of giving her exploding tampoons as a secondary nade. its getting out of control!
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Old 01-24-2008, 09:34 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GambiT
this thread is funny...lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by GambiT
i'm revoking your beta license...
And finally:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GambiT
oh then, dont get me started on Dr. Satan's suggestion of giving her exploding tampoons as a secondary nade. its getting out of control!
I thought it was a nice touch...I mean seriously who isn't deathly afraid of a tampoon? And I think the civi needs some sort of secondary nade...like I said in beta if you can think of something better I'm all ears!
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Old 01-24-2008, 10:01 PM   #71
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I'm mainly confused about the removal of caltrops. What is the deal with that? The caltrops are good and I've always found more than one use for them. Throwing them around an HW who is standing in one spot a-la aardvark. Throwing them down paths that only the D takes, or, offense flies over. In front of enemy spawns. Etc.

I can understand the removal of radar as it sucked and lagged the crap out of people when used... but caltrops? I don't see how the caltrops make any difference to your typical player nor can I see them being that big of an advantage otherwise.

The person who stated that they are annoyance to the D is correct. Much like how napalm grenades and pyros are an annoyance to the D or a conc grenade is an annoyance to the D.

Any chance on testing the pads with caltrops still in? Or a different secondary grenade?
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Old 01-24-2008, 10:05 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KubeDawg
Make the jump pad like a SG or Dispenser that a scout can det/dismantle?




What's wrong with annoyances? There is strategy to dropping caltrops, especially in narrow hallways where there isn'tmuch movement. Plus, the way the new caltrops work, you can place them anywhere you want, to increase the effectiveness. It also DOES increase enjoyment of my team, because as soon as, say an HW, or a Soldier is caltropped, and I'm running away with the flag, it allows me to cap a bit easier than without them. And I'm glad you mentioned the enmy offense getting caltropped too, because that does slow down the enemy offense, which is another good strategy, right? This gives your defense a better chance to kill the enemy offense... Accidental? You mean to say that running over a dropped grenade is also accidental? If that's the case, remove all grenades. The point I'm trying to present is this: With caltrops in the game, is keeps another level of depth in the game. Making things easier, isn't necessarily going to make Fortress Forever a better game. If you are the enemy, and you see a scout, or hear a scout, you need to beware that there might be caltrops dropped somewhere, so it's best to avoid them. If the enemy players were smart enough, they could get around the caltrops with little effort most of the time. Just like if a nade is thrown in your direction, your reaction time plays a big factor on how hard that nade will damage you.

You can place a Sentry gun at an enemies spawn door, and that'd be considered spam, right? So why not just simply remove the sentry gun altogether? /sarcasm. The same goes for other grenades too. By adding the jump pad, it will increase the mirv spamming as demomen/hwguys will have quicker access to the enemy base.
I feel completely opposite. I view the caltrops as comparable to the infection spreading thing with the medic.

Yes you're right laying caltrops at the entrance to doorways and stuff is strategic. But it doesn't mean the strategy is that "good". The effect isn't even permanent, and it's practically luck if you get someone stepping over them. I don't actually get my caltrops hitting people when I throw them at them.

Building an sg infront of respawn is not spam, not by Aftershock's definition anyways. Demo repeatedly shooting pipes at the respawn door in hopes someone stumbles out into one is spam. The demo isn't strategizing, he's just shooting and hoping for havok. Or laying caltrops at the respawn door as you run by, no enemy was present, but they were put there in the knowledge that at some point someone has to exit the door. An sg wouldn't actually shoot at the door until someone appears. It would be a direct attack towards a known enemy.

Positive > Negative when it comes to game play. Something like a caltrop that's just considered an annoyance to the enemy team doesn't effect your team that positively, oh sure a person might move slow for a bit, but it's not really effecting your teammate's game play.

Adding a spring board that can be placed anywhere, for your entire team and enemy team to use, could be considered a positive novelty item. It doesn't hurt anyone, you don't have to use it if you don't want to. But anyone can take joy out of playing around on it until it vanishes.

That's another question I had, if the Scout only gets 1, when it self destructs does he get to rebuild it? So like an sg always being able to have 1 up. Or does he only get 1 per death?

If the pads do help medium classed classes, to participate on O more often, it would do a couple things. It could change whole offensive lineups, new strategies, and actually getting the scout to work together with other classes than medic/scout. Could also encourage more people to run O who don't nescessarily know how to conc that well.

Sounds to me that if the jump pad is a success we'll see a lot more flow and movement from the entirety of each team, making games more wild to play.

If the timer's lasted long enough your offensive line up on aardvark could be, 2 scouts and 2 HW's. Use the first jump pad off battlements directly into the first scout pad down the field a bit, into the 3rd jump pad further down, onto the boost arrows at the bottom of the ramp.

The offense would still be slow, but man, if HW's could reduce the time it takes to get there by even 50% we'll see some interesting offensive changes.
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Old 01-24-2008, 10:11 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammock
Or laying caltrops at the respawn door as you run by, no enemy was present, but they were put there in the knowledge that at some point someone has to exit the door. An sg wouldn't actually shoot at the door until someone appears. It would be a direct attack towards a known enemy.
So here's a question for you. Placing land mines a day before an enemy comes through a territory isn't being strategic?

Yeah, caltrops don't last forever, but that's irrelevant. If an enemy patrols, or moves through an area often, placing caltrops in his path is pure strategy.
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Old 01-24-2008, 10:13 PM   #74
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You just hit almost the exact discussion about the jump pad and why it was implemented! Nicely done...

@Caltrops...they are worthless, never amounted to anything and server no real purpose in the game. Also them being gone leaves the slot open for something else.

NOTE: I am NOT saying that something else will be replacing it in this patch or any patch for that matter, just saying it leaves the slot open. Officially there has been absolutely NO discussion on replacing the caltrops with another weapon anywhere at all ever so don't take that to mean there was or is!
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Old 01-24-2008, 10:15 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Credge
So here's a question for you. Placing land mines a day before an enemy comes through a territory isn't being strategic?

Yeah, caltrops don't last forever, but that's irrelevant. If an enemy patrols, or moves through an area often, placing caltrops in his path is pure strategy.
Strategy that 95% percent of the time amounted to absolutely no positive result and generally was a worthless effort. I can honestly count on my fingers the amount of times i have stepped on a caltrop while playing ff AND even in TFC that number was below 100 and I have played TFC since inception.
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Old 01-24-2008, 10:18 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KubeDawg
What's wrong with annoyances?
It's a fundamental of games design, that abilities which improve your gameplay whilst not detracting from the abilities of your enemies are more fun to play with. Furthermore, abilities which don't require interaction between players are also worse. If you want to debate the fundamentals of games design then we'll be in for a looong (and interesting!) discussion - but i'd rather keep it out of this thread if possible
Quote:
Originally Posted by KubeDawg
There is strategy to dropping caltrops, especially in narrow hallways where there isn't much movement. Plus, the way the new caltrops work, you can place them anywhere you want, to increase the effectiveness. It also DOES increase enjoyment of my team, because as soon as, say an HW, or a Soldier is caltropped, and I'm running away with the flag, it allows me to cap a bit easier than without them.
Stopping you dying doesnt count as an improvement to gameplay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KubeDawg
And I'm glad you mentioned the enmy offense getting caltropped too, because that does slow down the enemy offense, which is another good strategy, right?
I was actually talking about your own (friendly) offense, when you play with friendly fire on. I dont think caltropping your best medic is a bonus

Quote:
Originally Posted by KubeDawg
Accidental? You mean to say that running over a dropped grenade is also accidental?
You don't empty a tin of grenades outside your spawn that stay there forever and detonate on impact. Grenades disappear in a matter of seconds, caltrops don't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KubeDawg
If you are the enemy, and you see a scout, or hear a scout, you need to beware that there might be caltrops dropped somewhere, so it's best to avoid them.
Are you telling me that when you play against a scout you have to constantly be watching the floor for caltrops just in case he's dropped some while you weren't watching? And you're trying to argue that walking around watching the floor for little spikes is somehow 'deep' and 'strategic'? :P

Quote:
Originally Posted by KubeDawg
If the enemy players were smart enough, they could get around the caltrops with little effort most of the time.
Walking around a spike on the floor isn't anything to do with being 'smart'. It's being aware that they are there. If you didnt see the scout drop them, and you arent watching every inch of the floor as you move around, then you might accidentally tread on one. Awesome move mr scout! You outwitted a soldier! (not!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KubeDawg
Just like if a nade is thrown in your direction, your reaction time plays a big factor on how hard that nade will damage you.
If you're using caltrops mid combat vs a soldier then you aren't going to cap many flags. Scouts typically conc/slide/run straight past them or die trying. So what if you throw a load of caltrops at his feet. He'll still nail you with the grenade he has primed, the 4 rockets in his RPG and the 16 shells in his shotty. Caltrops are only used 'on the way past', or to 'hide them to catch them off guard', like when he resupplies, hide them around the corner or in the spawn door. There is no interaction and no strategy here, and further backs up my point that they are only used as an accidental 'dirty trick' to play on unsuspecting players.

So yeah, I know sometimes they are fun, but hopefully you'll come around to the fact they were more detrimental to the enjoyment of the community as a whole
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Old 01-24-2008, 10:19 PM   #77
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I understand taking away damage to the IC but I do not understand doing so without buffing the flamethrower. The flamethrower is still pretty damn weak and thats why people were opting out for the IC instead. It wasn't that the IC was better it was that the flamethrower is a waste of time. It empties fast, doesn't do high damage, nearly impossible to hit a target as much as needed, and doesn't do jack for removing SGs unless you want to make it a kamikaze run. Rarely do you flame a SG and not go down with it. The Pyro should be a class you run away from just like a spy with his knife out. You shouldn't want them close to you. Now with added melee damage the Pyro is even less worthwhile at close range. You could probably get more crowbar kills than flamethrower kills. I don't feel like much thought was put into this and I"m sorry if there was but there are so many glaring in your face issues with this that I don't see how it could have been.

"Hey lets reduce the damage of the Pyro so he can...." what was at the end of the sentence I'll never know because you can't complete it and make sense.
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Old 01-24-2008, 10:21 PM   #78
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If we're in the business of removing annoyances, why is the sniper still in the game?
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Old 01-24-2008, 10:31 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow
If we're in the business of removing annoyances, why is the sniper still in the game?
Here Here! Lets remove the sniper (This was not a joke)

Anyways, another question about the jump pad. Is it going to be something the scout can use to protect himself from enemy fire?

Like the engy can do when a solly is shooting rockets at him. Duck and hide behind an sg he starts to build?

Fast build time on the pads could lower this ability, but someone quick with the buttons could build/stop repeatedly on inc rockets and other things.

It could also give him some cover against a HW 1v1 in the open if it can act as a shield since enemy's can't destroy it.
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Old 01-24-2008, 10:38 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammock
Here Here! Lets remove the sniper (This was not a joke)

Anyways, another question about the jump pad. Is it going to be something the scout can use to protect himself from enemy fire?

Like the engy can do when a solly is shooting rockets at him. Duck and hide behind an sg he starts to build?

Fast build time on the pads could lower this ability, but someone quick with the buttons could build/stop repeatedly on inc rockets and other things.

It could also give him some cover against a HW 1v1 in the open if it can act as a shield since enemy's can't destroy it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AfterShock
It's about the same base size as a SG but only chest height
I get the impression that it'll be a floating semi-transparent little thingar. I doubt it'll be able to block anything.
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